California Trilogy: City of Angels - On Camera (Game Over)

[Talilan]

Sorry, re-reading this game is a bit of a bitch

Crone was where Yos was the advocate, right? My reasoning was that if he was scum, he'd be leading us into choosing the "neutral" choice which was in fact the bad choice. If he was town, it seemed like if he had been told a choice was "not the bad one", it would be very likely to be the neutral one, otherwise it seemed too easy (I still don't know exactly what influence the scum had over the information given to the advocates, so I still can't second-guess how what information to give the advocates was chosen). If he was scum and leading us to the bad choice, then picking either of the others would be better. If I'm correct the potential sequence of choices in which mother was neutral had crone come out as good. Plus if he was lying scum we would be choosing "not the bad choice". And the whole thing looked so convenient, with Gaspar saying "mother was so obviously the correct choice" etc.

- ortolan

[zu_Faul]

zu_Faul, HOW would we have gotten those scumflips? Where in the rules does it say that we find out the alignment of the players who don't go to endgame???
I have read the rules several times and as far as I am aware we were never going to be told the alignments of players not chosen for endgame and I have been playing all along as though this were the case.

And where in the rules does it say that the last lynch of last scene would be considered 'early'??

What freaking rules are you reading?

~Tal

In the rules it said that, as soon as one side is down to minimum number, endgame starts. After the lynch, town was down to 5 players, also known as minimum, so endgame started. It's actually pretty simple. It was said that the other players are killed off. Anyway, even when if we were not given an explicit flip of thok and GAB, they must have been scum, as scum lost two people and town none.

[zu_Faul]

There wasn't support backstage. One of the MO hydra thought there was a problem with what I had worked out. I remember Thesp specifically did not want to send a sign indicating anything as he though the onstage people should play it out. Ortolan did his own figuring out and came up with crone... that was when the onstage accident happened. I'll let him explain why he thought crone.

What do you think about Thesp's behaviour there?

Refresh my mind on the "accident", I read the scene, but probably too quickly and I may have forgotten parts.

[Talilan]

In the rules it said that, as soon as one side is down to minimum number, endgame starts. After the lynch, town was down to 5 players, also known as minimum, so endgame started. It's actually pretty simple.

Well in that case even if scene 7 finished, scum might have nightkills they can use; thus bringing the town down to 5? I don't see how it's as simple as you seem to think it is (plus mith specifically refused to answer our question, if it was answerable in the rules then he would have just told us to read the rules).

I agree with you about alignments being revealed. Assuming there was a lynch (of anyone), rather than a nolynch, we would be able to work out exactly who was scum because there would only be exactly the number of players required for end-game.

- ortolan

[Talilan]

zu_Faul,

We didn't know how many scum there were. I assume neither did you.

If we hadn't got down to 5 town and triggered early endgame, we would not have known how many scum and town were left. The

only

reason we know Thok & DGB's alignment is because we triggered endgame early.

Re: Thesp not wanting to send a sign onstage... Yes I thought it was worth noting after I it was revealed that maiden wouldn't have been a bad pick. Thesp didn't appear to put any effort into figuring out the puzzle himself, just wanted onstage to play it out. (Now that I check back, MO also did not want to send a signal onstage.. I guess I found this less suspicious because one of MO was at least attempting to figure out the puzzle).

~Tal

[zu_Faul]

zu_Faul,

We didn't know how many scum there were. I assume neither did you.

If we hadn't got down to 5 town and triggered early endgame, we would not have known how many scum and town were left. The

only

reason we know Thok & DGB's alignment is because we triggered endgame early.

Oh, this is true.

Re: Thesp not wanting to send a sign onstage... Yes I thought it was worth noting after I it was revealed that maiden wouldn't have been a bad pick. Thesp didn't appear to put any effort into figuring out the puzzle himself, just wanted onstage to play it out. (Now that I check back, MO also did not want to send a signal onstage.. I guess I found this less suspicious because one of MO was at least attempting to figure out the puzzle).

~Tal

Does make that MO more scummy than Thesp? He essentially only pretended to solved the puzzle.

[Talilan]

Maybe. I think it was around that time that MO lost half of his hydra. Have we heard what caused that yet?

~Tal

[StarKiss]

{Kise}

I need to post this RP by midnight elsewhere, so that's where I've been. After tonight, I have no more outside obligations. Blah..

[VP Baltar]

Care to explain why you have time to post in other games but not here Kise?

[VP Baltar]

Also, more tomorrow....I'm drinking and lethargy is setting in.

[Mr. Grey]

Vote Count:

4 to lynch.

StarKiss: 1 (Thesp)
Talilan: 1 (hewitt)

Not Voting: 5 (Mighty Orbots, StarKiss, Talilan, VP Baltar, zu_Faul)

Current Condorcet Winner:

None. Current Smith Set: hewitt, StarKiss

To view the complete table of pairwise results, put the following information into this form.

1,hewitt
2,Mighty Orbots
3,StarKiss
4,Talilan
5,Thesp
6,VP Baltar
7,zu_Faul
8,No Lynch

1:4>3>2>5>6>7>8>1
1:1=3=4=5=6=7=8>2
1:1=2=4=5=6=7=8>3
1:1=2=3=5=6=7=8>4
1:3>1=2>4=6>8>5=7
1:1>3>5>4>2>8>6=7
1:1=2=3=4=5=6=8>7

[StarKiss]

Because my posts suck in said other games. I'm going to post something really awesome here soon.

{K}

[Talilan]

... re-reading.

I'm nearly ready to add MO's name to the list of people I won't vote for. If he's scum he's played an amazing game and probably deserves to win. He's been active in both the special game mechanicky things as well as the scum-hunting side of things and for an active player there's actually very little you can fault him on.

I do worry that he had an unusually firm and early grasp of game mechanics, how the advocate information worked, etc (see offstage posts 90,92,111,156) which I would expect scum to have a better handle on as they needed to know this stuff to make their choices... but on its own it's not a good enough reason he's scum.

I will keep reading, but just wanted to note my updated feelings (as I have expressed suspicion of MO in the past.)

Assuming MO continues to look OK, this leaves me with 3 possible votes... Hewitt, StarKiss, Thesp...

I will narrow down from these 3 to my 2 most likely scums from this once I've read a few more scenes, then negotiate with ortolan our vote.

~Tal

[Talilan]

Better respond to this I guess, but feel time spent arguing with someone I'm most likely not going to vote for is not well spent. He may, however, vote for me. So...

1. It is not irrelevant. Organised quick-lynches involve both luck and organisation. There was no guarantee going into that scene that SL would be lynched. I betcha he would've stunted if he had time after seeing the first vote. If his stunt request PM was timestamped before Thok's vote, he woulda been safe and two scum would've been exposed.

I thought the KY Krew business Scene 1 pretty much established that scum can daytalk.

There was still no

guarantee

. Some people have jobs... some live in different timezones.

2. A) You're kidding right? NO-ONE is as good as a non-counter-claimed AP. B) There was some suspicion of him. Most notably Gaspar.

Close enough. And Gaspar was dead, so.

Exactly. Dead AND confirmed innocent. And has one of the best scum-hunting reputations on the site. Therefore I didn't take his opinions lightly and didn't expect others to either.

We were less trusted than DGB on-stage IIRC, and she would additionally look good the way she'd attacked Thok throughout the game and was turning on us at the time we did it.

You've said this a couple times. What support do you have?

You were there onstage in the recent boat scene when we ranked everyone. DGB was more trusted.

This (below) is ortolan's posts but I'll answer for us:

What would people have objected to, at the time, about leaving DGB/Thok/Shadowlurker off-stage?

Here's where I'm really lost now.

oh and zu_Faul was obv the AP.

So why wouldn't you have left him offstage to lynch your scum candidate? If zu_Faul was "obv the AP" that means zu_Faul is guaranteed town.

*shakes head* Leave offstage zu_Faul, my scum candidate and WHO? I had to be onstage. I might've been dumb enough to get SL quick-lynched but there was no way I was leaving zu_Faul offstage with two people of unknown alignment. (I know that is contrary to what I posted while offstage pre-scene but I certainly wasn't putting all my cards on the table at that point.)

~Tal

[Thesp]

I'm out of town right now, but let's try to get a good post up - the heater has been out of our house since Tuesday, and it's supposed to be replaced tomorrow. (I'm sooooooo ready to be in my own home for a weekend. Ugh.) Anyway, on to business.

Anything in particular that strikes your fancy? My opinions are based more than on Scene 1, but I thought that was worth exploring.

You're voting Starkiss. Post a case. Show me why Starkiss is worse than me and hewitt. Show me why hewitt and I are worse than Talilan and VP Baltar.

I thought I've touched on why I'm voting Starkiss - horrible voting record, the quote in Scene 7 that there's been much hullabaloo over - what are your thoughts on him?

I've seen some striking pro-town things from Talilan and VP Baltar. I haven't seen the same from you and hewitt.

I know at some point I'm going to need to shift from the "stating one's own opinion's phase" to the "convince everyone else that I'm likely correct" phase, I'm just not sure it's this moment. I'm not sure how detailed cases on all my thoughts are as useful at this moment, when it feels like to me others seem to have the same sense. (Perhaps I'm wrong?)

Let me give you the rundown in the notes I'm showing by player (re: onstage decisions, Scenes 5-7 are excluded for their utter uselessness, probably could have excluded Scene 1 as well):

Argh. All info, no analysis. Why is scene 6 utterly useless? How did you interpret these things?

Scene 6 was utterly useless from a strict voting record, and given the known alignment flips of 3 people involved (ShadowLurker, Thok & GoofballsAndBalloons), it's entirely likely that no one else needed to lie or make a "bad" decision (though I'm still concerned about your question in the scene, I'm pondering whether or not town-MO would have asked it, I feel sure scum-MO would have asked it). How people acted is still somewhat relevant, but it's somewhat useless otherwise from the "who voted what" aspect.

So basically you're saying the players who made the "better" decisions are the ones who are town? That's a surefire way to screw us over and lose the game. Hope that works out great for you.

This is entirely unhelpful, on top of being wrong.

Sure, scum could try to make good decisions the whole game, cause unknown damage to their side, and try to pull it out in a best-possible-town setup at the end. How likely is that? Not very.

Also, compare this with straight-up lynches - compare:

Person A

lynches town more often than scum,

Person B

lynches scum more often than town.
Who is more likely to be scum? Sure,

Person B

could be a scum who's trying to harm his team repeatedly to get in the good graces of the town. But what's more likely?

Scenes 3 & 4 are also noteworht in that they reached bad decisions on razor-thin margins. If I remember correctly from my spreadsheet at home, I'm showing that the inclinations of everyone were split by a one vote shift (that is, if one person voted the other way, another decision would be made). Bad decisions in that scene are all the more highlighted, as scum lose that much more by making the "Town-Good" choice. You being wrong on both of those two is compelling enough to me to want to lynch you.

The problem with the decisions in the scenes is that clearly the scum are not going to make a negative impact on the game every chance they get because they know that other players are going to make mistakes. No matter who the scum is, they're going to manipulative that and use that to their advantage. It's almost the most unreliable resource we have in this game because the scum most likely voted for the good outcome knowing that it'll make them look good.

Do you see the problem with this argument? It justifies acting in an anti-town argument the whole game. It's exactly the sort of argument one would expect scum to make if they'd been acting anti-town the whole game. I am uncertain that town would try to make the same argument.

Thesp, what was your stance on Gaspar?

I was initially very anti-Gaspar, but this softened up over the course of his game, particularly as his playstyle changed. I was surprised he was lynched - I wouldn't have at that point in time.

Happy with a Starkiss lynch (or a hewitt lynch, really, I can't imagine both of them being town, and could easily imagine both being scum). I don't want a Talilan lynch today.

[VP Baltar]

Honestly, I'm in the camp of belief that there is no way in hell that both Starkiss and hewitt are both town. I dont' even consider it in the realm of possibility. We have one mislynch and I have a feeling this game is going to lylo anyhow, so these two need to be the first to go.

If one of them does happen to be town, there is no way scum is going to NK them. If one of them is town, the lylo decision is obviously going to be a difficult one, but I think that is something that is just going to have to be dealt with in lylo.

So, my conclusion is we lynch them back to back and see where we are at. Two two players are going to be killed by that point as well, which should eliminate a portion of the difficulty and highly increase the town's odds of hitting the other scum.

As for the argument being put forth that the scum wouldn't put their scummiest players in endgame, this isn't necessarily true. Keep in mind that (if Talilan is town), scum didn't get a choice really at all. They only had 4 members left and if DGB and Thok were put off stage with SL by Talilan, they would have had no other option than to eliminate themselves. There was no argument they could have proposed against OBV town SL that would have been believable, so the best thing they could do would go to the auto best endgame for them and stop their scummy partners (starkiss and hewitt) from making yet ANOTHER bad decision on stage.

So, yeah, hewitt and Starkiss one and two, then we'll see where we are from there. If we use a mislynch, so be it. This is the best strategy we can go with in my opinion.

---

I have a couple other things to look at, so I'm not really proposing a speed lynch here, but I don't see a plan that is better for us at this point. The key to winning open setups is to have a good strategy, and this is the optimal one.

[Thesp]

Honestly, I'm in the camp of belief that there is no way in hell that both Starkiss and hewitt are both town. I dont' even consider it in the realm of possibility. We have one mislynch and I have a feeling this game is going to lylo anyhow, so these two need to be the first to go.

If one of them does happen to be town, there is no way scum is going to NK them. If one of them is town, the lylo decision is obviously going to be a difficult one, but I think that is something that is just going to have to be dealt with in lylo.

So, my conclusion is we lynch them back to back and see where we are at. Two two players are going to be killed by that point as well, which should eliminate a portion of the difficulty and highly increase the town's odds of hitting the other scum.

As for the argument being put forth that the scum wouldn't put their scummiest players in endgame, this isn't necessarily true. Keep in mind that (if Talilan is town), scum didn't get a choice really at all. They only had 4 members left and if DGB and Thok were put off stage with SL by Talilan, they would have had no other option than to eliminate themselves. There was no argument they could have proposed against OBV town SL that would have been believable, so the best thing they could do would go to the auto best endgame for them and stop their scummy partners (starkiss and hewitt) from making yet ANOTHER bad decision on stage.

So, yeah, hewitt and Starkiss one and two, then we'll see where we are from there. If we use a mislynch, so be it. This is the best strategy we can go with in my opinion.

---

I have a couple other things to look at, so I'm not really proposing a speed lynch here, but I don't see a plan that is better for us at this point. The key to winning open setups is to have a good strategy, and this is the optimal one.

I agree with this 1000%.

[zu_Faul]

Baltar, answer my question, please.

[VP Baltar]

About the question? Read the thread for the context, but it wouldn't have made a difference, imo. Even if MO had asked if 41 was very good and got a no, what would that have changed? We would have been guessing anyhow because it was one or both of Thok and DGB who lied in that scene. It would have been a complete shot in the dark either way and we wouldn't have had any better of a chance to get a Very Good with another guess.

Unfortunately, I didn't push hard enough to reask DGB's question when that thought occurred to me. I'm guessing she was the one who lied there, so if MO had asked hers again we would have at least had a slightly better chance of guessing correctly.

[Mighty Orbots]

There was still no

guarantee

. Some people have jobs... some live in different timezones.

Well. Given the votes came at the same minute, I'd say it wasn't an issue.

Exactly. Dead AND confirmed innocent. And has one of the best scum-hunting reputations on the site. Therefore I didn't take his opinions lightly and didn't expect others to either.

I don't know his reputation, but a townie is a townie is a townie. He wasn't a cop with innocents and guilties.

Ugh, fading fast.

You were there onstage in the recent boat scene when we ranked everyone. DGB was more trusted.

Actually:

Compiling the lists into a mixed thing. 7=most town, 1=least town. Goofballs listed SL and VP Baltar as a tie, so they get a 3.5. Similarly the 5.5 from a Talilan tie.

Hewitt 1+1+1+4+7+2+1=17
Thok 3+2+2+7+2+1+3=20
Goofballs 4+7+3+1+1+5.5+2=23.5
Talilan 2+5+5+2+5+7+4=30
Vp Baltar 7+3.5+4+3+6+5.5+5=34
Might Orbots 5+6+7+5+3+3+6=35
ShadowLurker 6+3.5+6+6+4+4+7=36.5

You're listed higher.

Ugh. Hang on, I'll try to do another post.

[Mighty Orbots]

Maybe. I think it was around that time that MO lost half of his hydra. Have we heard what caused that yet?

Severe playstyle clash.

Mighty Orbots, again the question, why did you just reask hewitt's question than validating number 41?

Again, I was going to validate 41.

So, to verify: I'm asking if {74, 14, 39, 23, 51, 41} contains a Very Good, right? And we're expecting a yes answer.

I don't like that Thesp is parroting this.

Speaking of which...

I know at some point I'm going to need to shift from the "stating one's own opinion's phase" to the "convince everyone else that I'm likely correct" phase, I'm just not sure it's this moment.

So you're just going to keep saying I'm antitown/scummy but not say why and give me a chance to defend myself. Thanks Thesp, that's helpful. Though not unique to yourself.

So, yeah, hewitt and Starkiss one and two, then we'll see where we are from there. If we use a mislynch, so be it. This is the best strategy we can go with in my opinion.

This is probably true. I'm willing to go along with this plan.

I have to go to bed.

[Talilan]

MO, Re SL. Be fair. Your point was to question why I left an obv-town offstage to get lynched. I'm saying that, to me and at least one other player I now trust, he was not obv town. He was voted most trusted onstage but look at the company we were in. He proposed and steamed ahead with a doomed plan. He was nowhere near a confirmed innocent. You can continue to argue this, but you're simply wrong.

And I guess that makes us even because we were apparently wrong about DGB being more trusted than us. Not sure how ortolan and I both managed to mis-remember that, sorry.

-T

[Thesp]

I know at some point I'm going to need to shift from the "stating one's own opinion's phase" to the "convince everyone else that I'm likely correct" phase, I'm just not sure it's this moment.

So you're just going to keep saying I'm antitown/scummy but not say why and give me a chance to defend myself. Thanks Thesp, that's helpful. Though not unique to yourself.

While I also think defenses are overrated, I don't think you're worth pursuing at this moment. (See: Starkiss/hewitt.) We'll cross that bridge if/when we get there. I may not even think you're the scummiest at that time, and I don't think it's useful to lay all those cards on the table yet. (Why try to set up a third lynch when the scum still have nightkills between now and then, if we even get to the third lynch?)

[StarKiss]

{Kise}

Not as awesome as I want this post to be, but I need to be productive.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 30#1944630

We had 7 exchanges before I got an answer out of you, Talitha. And even now, something isn't right about how things have gone. You wanted everyone to realize I'm scum. So, if you have a hard belief someone is scum, you should get them lynched. Did you want me to get off free, or expect me not to be set up for endgame if I'm in the scum faction? I don't think so. I think you were trying to slowly simmer me over a period of time and put me here with all that marinade over my succulent body.

Now, big surprise here, I didn't want to be lynched, so I didn't make a big stink about it. But now that I'm here in endgame, seriously.. why let someone go if you say they're scum? If I'm scum, were you hoping to scare me and my group into not selecting me for endgame? And on the same token, me > DAB? I need to go over every player here to make sure easy mislynches were not set up by the PNIA.



Secondly, not sure if it was brought up in this game or not, but inactivity is not a scumtell for me. I can't seem to find the thread (must've been flushed/abandoned) but my PPD every month was ranked #2, right behind zwet, the spam master himself. I used to have enough time to play a dozen games at once -- Zazie grew jealous of me behind this.

When I got back into school, I knew I would need some help keeping up with this game. Starbuck fell out for some reason, so in comes dramo. If I had the time to do it alone, I would. There's a reason I needed help staying in this game. So, I have royally screwed up as far as productivity, I know this. I'd get behind by so many pages that I'd resort to skimming and scanning pages within seconds, merely trying to get a gist of things instead of really comprehending what was going on.



Third, I don't plan to stop with my eye only on Talilan, but there are more things I want to go over with this hydra. My birthday is this week, so like hell if I'm going to pass up a reason to get inebriated. That said, I'm looking at Thursday when I make a review of others, sober and all. VP, can you think off the top of your head any game(s) we've played where you were mafia?

[hewitt]

This is interesting. If you're going to lynch me and Starkiss lynch me first so I can sit back and watch/laugh at the rest of this game.