Mini 880 - Mini Quick and Dirty - Game Over

[Albert B. Rampage]

Yes, I am slightly inebriated, but my post is likey comprehensive enough for ya to read.

[Albert B. Rampage]

I mean cohesive. Pardon the sloppy writtin

[AGar]

I can't help but laugh at the style of ABR's entire post.

I guess I'll address things:

Posts all fluff in the first 6 pages in the game and then gits angsty over eKim fluffin his way in a likey fashion. Omgusy on top of that, but lil hypocrisy never killed neone so I just keep that in my mind fer later.

I see how you read it that way, but it was more on the fact that he tried building a case off of a flimsy belief that I was playing the newbie card when I wasn't even trying anything of the like, and had explained that.

So I'm payin extra extra attention to him in my read you see. But the rest of his play can be described as a wild mess that fails to meet my standards of pro-town play.

Not the first time I've been told that my play style isn't kosher. Not the first time I've been accused either. No big deal.

Post 308 looks like more of what others have pointed out at nub card pointin, scummy playstyle coverin and little actual helpin.

Eh, not really meant to be a big pro-town post, just a bit more reaction posting.

452 is nice, AGar inventin words like "undercomprehension" to describe his allegedly weaksauce readin ability, but he accuses Zorblag and ODD(in) which is a fresh departure from his ekim tunnelin strategy to this point.

I invent words a lot, I enjoy it. Might as well get used to it.

I've also further explained I was MIA for a number of meatworld days on D1 and missed a lot of big developments. Hence the departure from the ekiM/Charlatan tunneling.

3. There should probably be way more pressure on me since I have not really contributed as much as I would personally have liked to in this game. It actually pisses me off that no one has come after me for anything yet, because I gain reads that way.

Conscience gettin guilty I see. Yeeea not trustin you much.

[Votes for Me]

Yes and no. Yes on the fact that I haven't been able to put forth as much as I would have liked to in this game. No to any other implications I'm picking up on.

Anything else you want from me?

[AGar]

w00t got my quote tags right. Took long enough.

[Ojanen]

Ojanen---What are your thoughts on VP Baltar and charlatan?

I don't have a clearly defined read of either currently. Just isoed them.

On VP -
I noticed earlier his Amished stances are a little bit all over.
Early he attacks and votes Amished based on wagon hopping and questions him on a few things.
Later his read has changed to not feeling an Amished case at all.
He responds to Serial's case by finding the thing he himself cast an early attack on Amished categorically wrong as a scumtell, and the other points not voteworthy at that moment.
Near deadline votes Amished over Sando, who he was finding legitimately scummy earlier, due to honest seeming frustration and something in Amished's play not quite sitting right with him.
D2 no continuation but then again the slot was V/LA always.
I'm fine with stance changes in principle. But some of these are hard to read, no transparent impulses or new thought processes visible from outside.
His D1 play is somewhat more defined and townish than what I saw of him as scum. My sample size is 1 though.


On charlatan: I have a slight town gutread from his play but reading back I'm not sure where it came from. Perhaps from non-vagueness D1.
I notice his content was somewhat small/non-positional today before his last post though.

Regardless, I think nightkill speculation is not helpful to us, especially at this point, and I think what Scien is doing is muddying the waters. I have not decided yet if that is scummy or just a bad call, but I've certainly made a note of it.

I found this a little weird due to charlatan just having posted some of his own thinking in response to the nk speculation.
@charlatan:

My top suspects at this point, in no particular order:

charlatan, were these suspicions really exactly on the same level? What made you decide which one to vote?

[Ojanen]

@Ojanen - On it's own, OMGUS is a null-tell in my book. However, with other factors, I feel it can hint at some things.

Not understanding you here actually. I asked because you said earlier you OMGUS all the time and then voted ODDin because

OMGUS. Seemingly empty vote to start off a day. Skewed viewpoints. Just to name a few.
I really need to give this game a serious re-read, but you guys aren't like newbies and actually post mountains. Gonna need to do a re-read tomorrow. Serves me right for signing up for a non-newbie game. :p

Later explained

I pointed out my reasons. I also am garnering a town read in that direction (PZ) right now, so with the massive undercomprehension I had at that time of voting, it was a good decision in my eyes.

You had "undercomprehension", which means you didn't remember why ODDin was voting PZ or what?
What do you mean by the seeming emptiness of the vote?
I'm having a hard time isolating the rest of the reasons here besides the OMGUS that you think is null.

[AGar]

@Ojanen - On it's own, OMGUS is a null-tell in my book. However, with other factors, I feel it can hint at some things.

Not understanding you here actually. I asked because you said earlier you OMGUS all the time and then voted ODDin because

OMGUS. Seemingly empty vote to start off a day. Skewed viewpoints. Just to name a few.
I really need to give this game a serious re-read, but you guys aren't like newbies and actually post mountains. Gonna need to do a re-read tomorrow. Serves me right for signing up for a non-newbie game. :p

Later explained

I pointed out my reasons. I also am garnering a town read in that direction (PZ) right now, so with the massive undercomprehension I had at that time of voting, it was a good decision in my eyes.

You had "undercomprehension", which means you didn't remember why ODDin was voting PZ or what?
What do you mean by the seeming emptiness of the vote?
I'm having a hard time isolating the rest of the reasons here besides the OMGUS that you think is null.

OMGUS I find to be a null-tell on it's own. Meaning, if ALL I see from someone is OMGUS, I generally move on with life. I do tend to OMGUS a lot, which is why I personally find it as a null-tell alone. Sometimes, though, with other information, it can paint a picture.

"Undercomprehension" meant I hadn't fully read the thread more than at face value. At that point in time, I had read the thread enough to have a general idea of what went on and what was going on. But before the re-read, I hadn't poked in depth at things due to general time constraints.

The perceived emptiness was pointing at the fact that I felt ODDin's case to be bullshit and a terrible excuse to vote at PZ.

[Ojanen]

I'm trying to figure out Mr. Rampage. Suspicious of Amished slot, and I have a hard time reading ABR.
I notice his 3 suspects are all from the 4 current vote getters.
AGar stuff I see where he's coming from, in fact I've thought along the same lines at times. Relatable, although I don't like it as much when the thoughts are too similar (points to easyish).
ODDin FoS is either gut or a bunch of unclarity with a nod to nk speculation.

In fact, almost his entire posting record pertains or is addressed to Sando or Serial. Check his postin in iso. Both dead now. So scary.

This is inaccurate on a skim.

ABR, what do you think about Papa Zito? VP Baltar?

[Ojanen]

The perceived emptiness was pointing at the fact that I felt ODDin's case to be bullshit and a terrible excuse to vote at PZ.

Did you always feel this way? Was there a reason you didn't mention it D1 when they started attacking each other?

[Raskol]

PZ, your current top three scum suspects, please?

Also, what do you think about ABR/Amished?

[AGar]

The perceived emptiness was pointing at the fact that I felt ODDin's case to be bullshit and a terrible excuse to vote at PZ.

Did you always feel this way? Was there a reason you didn't mention it D1 when they started attacking each other?

Honest to god? I was skimming through D1. I had it rough right before and after thanksgiving and as I've said, didn't put my all into the game really. So I wasn't really catching onto the case.

[ODDin]

I wish to apologize in advance, I won't be able to be too active for most of this week, since I've got loads of work to do. I'll do my best to catch up on things as they happen.

In the meanwhile, regarding the case(s) against me, frankly, I haven't got much to say. If you think my case is contrived and fabricated, go ahead and do - saying "it's not" won't get us anywhere.
Regarding the tunneling, I did reread Zorblag in iso, but didn't really find anything of value. I might say that if I were scum it'd be easier for me to accuse Zorblag to avoid the tunneling accusation, but that's going into WIFOM territory.
I want to reread AGar, but as I've said above, I'm not sure when I'll manage to do that. The problem is, him saying "I was skimming through D1" negates many possible arguments.

[VP Baltar]

Should be able to do some major work in this game this afternoon (I hope).

Mod, when is the deadline?

[Zorblag]

My plans to get on Tuesday clearly failed to come through.

@VP Baltar, I wouldn't call Sando's lynch a policy lynch, no (though a deadline lynch would probably be fair.) I was voting for him because I found him at least as scummy as anyone else based on his play, not just because I thought the play was anti-town. That was pretty much my feeling throughout day one after he had made his first post and I no longer had anyone who hadn't voted yet to put some light pressure on with my vote. His play consistently came across as more obstructing the flow of the game than it did him trying to figure out who scum were. It seems my read was wrong but that happens, especially on day one.

@Papa Zito, I don't see any reason why my last post would have caused you to move your vote. I hadn't added anything new in particular and shouldn't have addressed any of the issues that you seem to have with how I've played so far this game. I'm not sure why you thought it was worth saying that you hadn't changed your mind.

That wasn't the reason for being grumpy that I would have expected (though I did expect you to acknowledge it for a different reason.) Could you point me to another game where you've had this reaction to not having town reads for people?

Waiting till the last minute to take a stand on an issue like this be off. Based on the information we have about who you think be scummy it should be clear where your vote would go. If your suspicions have changed then getting them out sooner rather than later would be more helpful for the town.

Nice twist but no, it no be off. It's that I'm not particularly enthused with either wagon and I'm hoping for a last-second miracle.

No, it really was off. You had Sando listed as number three on your list of suspects at that time. Your previous assessment of Sando was scummy. Day one if one of your top three suspects is one of the competing wagons and you've expressed suspicion for them it's off to be hanging back and not voting in a way that's going to be relevant to the way the day ends.

NO U

Really? At what point did I become the measuring stick for your play?

Your lack of scumhunting is scummy. Simply letting the game flow around you is scummy. Not taking a real stand on anything is scummy. Your earlier deflection and your "I'm rubber you're glue" defense is scummy. When I came to these realizations is immaterial.

My question about when I became suspect to you wasn't intended to discredit your suspicion as you seem to be taking it. I don't mind if people suspect me but in this case the timing is actually somewhat important. If you really weren't thrilled about the Sando lynch and would have found mine preferable (which was apparently the case) then you should have been doing something to cause that to happen. If that didn't come up till relatively late in day one then I don't have much issue with your choice of actions. If you thought that I was scummy back in Post 272 rather than simply trying to get more a read on me then you should have been doing more than simply asking what others thought.

As for your reasons for suspecting me now let's see if I can address some of them. If I've got any of them wrong do let me know.

You seem to think that I've been sitting back and simply letting the game happen without taking part in it. I don't go out of my way early in the game to change people's opinions most of the time in mafia. You've seen evidence of that in /in-vitational 2 where I explicitly refused to try to push a case on MiteyMouse for hohum and Sajin on day one. I had my vote where I wanted it throughout day one of this game. Most of the time that was Sando. Beyond that I asked questions when I saw things that I thought were worth pursuing and shared thoughts as I had them. If you don't like that I use the early game more for information gathering then I'll have to live with that but it's how I consistently play.

You find my suspicions in the game to be vague; I'm not taking stances strongly enough and am leaving too many options open. I don't make many absolute statements because there's very little that I'm sure of in the early game. When I point out things that might be important I'll give the possible explanations but no, I'm not going to commit early to being sure which is correct. I'd have to go back and check but I think that for the most part the reads I gave were for a particular alignment or null. In the long run it'll be how those accumulate which makes it clearer which of the two it is.

You think that I'm observing the game rather than analyzing it. What I have done is say who I think might be scummy based on what I've seen. Were I simply observing I wouldn't be doing more than noting what happened. I suspect that this one is actually mostly tied back to the strength of expression of my suspicions.

I'm not sure what the deflection you've mentioned is and you appear to think that I'm trying to take what you're saying you find scummy about me and turn it around to make you look scummy which I don't really understand.

And this post is long enough already. I've got other things to address and thoughts to share but I'll get that in another post.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[charlatan]

Regardless, I think nightkill speculation is not helpful to us, especially at this point, and I think what Scien is doing is muddying the waters. I have not decided yet if that is scummy or just a bad call, but I've certainly made a note of it.

I found this a little weird due to charlatan just having posted some of his own thinking in response to the nk speculation.

The sentences you've quoted are a pretty natural progression of thoughts. I partook in the discussion and then said eh, this probably isn't productive. The difference between Scien and I in this situation was that I offered two sentences just for the sake of discussion, whereas Scien seems ready to let it affect his play:

I think I can use the NK to know who to look at for behavior.

Probably ought to be looking at everyone "for behavior", even as vague as that is.

My top suspects at this point, in no particular order:

charlatan, were these suspicions really exactly on the same level? What made you decide which one to vote?[/quote]

Actually, that was unclear on my part. Apologies. ODDin is my best suspect at the time. "No particular order" referred not only to ODDin and Amished, but also to AGar, Raskol, and Baltar, who I mentioned mostly re: lurking and unclear play. I had planned to say a little more about them at the time at the beginning of that post.

I want to reread AGar, but as I've said above, I'm not sure when I'll manage to do that. The problem is, him saying "I was skimming through D1" negates many possible arguments.

"I was skimming" should not be a way out.

AGar, to verify, you have caught up fully now, yes?

[Zorblag]

@Ojanen, I think that when he gave his initial reactions to being asked for opinions Sando wasn't particularly likely to be the lynch. He could easily have made the negative attention on himself go away by providing his opinions. Instead he made an issue of it which distracted from the game. In the end it turned out that it lead to his lynch but when he made the choice I don't think that it was clear at all that it would.

And actually, calling my contributions today vague was pretty generous. I haven't been here for the game at all today. I haven't been on the site much at all for this game day as things have been busy but that doesn't make the absence here any more excusable.

@everyone, it seems that people are having trouble telling who my suspects have been. Today I've done little as I haven't been about so perhaps thoughts on everyone will be of use. I'll get me thoughts together on everyone and share that in a bit.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[ODDin]

"I was skimming" should not be a way out.

I'm not saying it's a way out, but it does kill lots of possible discussion. For instance, I mentioned AGar not accusing me until today, although everything he's accusing me for was already there yesterday. His answer? "I skimmed past it yesterday." I can't continue questioning that or pushing in that direction.

[AGar]

I want to reread AGar, but as I've said above, I'm not sure when I'll manage to do that. The problem is, him saying "I was skimming through D1" negates many possible arguments.

"I was skimming" should not be a way out.

AGar, to verify, you have caught up fully now, yes?

For the first part - I don't intend on using it as a "way out", per se. But it's what I was doing, so I will use it to back things up.

For the second. Yes.

Also, I just got a major shift from that last post of Troll's. I need a new number two on my list. Right now I stand alone with ODDin as my numero uno.

[AGar]

@ODDin - had I been here yesterday, I would've been suspicious of you. Not enough to vote, because Sando was waving scumflags all over the place in my book, but enough to come into today suspicious of you.

[ODDin]

@ODDin - had I been here yesterday, I would've been suspicious of you. Not enough to vote, because Sando was waving scumflags all over the place in my book, but enough to come into today suspicious of you.

That's what you say.

[AGar]

@ODDin - had I been here yesterday, I would've been suspicious of you. Not enough to vote, because Sando was waving scumflags all over the place in my book, but enough to come into today suspicious of you.

That's what you say.

Understandable that you doubt me, I would too. I'm aware that all of my posts are going to be under major scrutiny now.

[Ojanen]

Day 2 starts now.
Deadline is in 12 days.

Holy crap! I just checked and this is in a couple of days.

@mod

: we lost days due to most people being away for Thanksgiving, is there any chance of a small extension?

Past midnight, content coming asap, either now or in the morning.

[VP Baltar]

OK, I spent a good part of my Sunday closely reading Day 1 again. This was actually surprisingly helpful and just what I needed to catch my bearings.

My biggest conclusion is that there is almost certainly scum between Raskol and Agar, if not both of them.

Two things really stood out to me about Raskol. The first is that he has alot of posts like post 134 where he says this:

I'd also like to see everyone either explain the reasoning behind their vote (unless they have already), or if there isn't any reason, find a reason to vote for someone and vote for them. At the very least, I think everyone should at least begin making clear efforts to show that they're working towards a position. The deadlines for this game are short, and we don't have a hell of a lot of time for feeling things out or joking around. People need to start taking positions ASAP---we'll need them later on.

This is one of those "I'm so town, rally the troops" posts, but what is really the goal? How does this help Raskol find scum, cause I don't know. There are plenty of examples of this kind of "scumhunting" throughout his iso.

There was also the very drawn out debate he was having with SC over his scumhunting style (focus on town reads). What bothers me about this is that Raskol apparently just completed a game with town-SC, and I think this is one of the most well known features of his play. Also, since Raskol said he wanted meta from everyone to get acquainted with everyone's style, I don't see how he couldn't know this. I think it was a pretty shoddy attack that could have transitioned into a mislynch on playstyle rather than actions had other people in this game not been familiar with SC.

Then of course we have Raskol's vote on the Sando wagon. While I felt he did raise a good point early early on with Sando (Sando's falsifying an attack on Amished), there is absolutely no follow through with it.

Then he simply seems to be feeling out the wagon after others pick up the attack:

Reading through what's happened in the past few days, I don't think my vote on ekiM is doing much, and charlatan is looking good atm. I'm considering whether to move to ODDin or Sando at this point; I wouldn't mind either one of them for today.

And then we have his vote:

Sando ignored my question, which makes baby jesus sad.

Unvote

vote: Sando

So, he votes Sando because he didn't answer his hypothetical question about who he would vig if he had the chance. WHAT IS SCUMMY ABOUT THAT!

What bothers me even more after that is that Raskol disappears for the rest of the day. While it wasn't a terribly long time, if he were town I'd think he'd at least check in with the deadline looming and no clear lynch happening when he had placed his vote. There was quite a bit going on at that time as well, so it wasn't like there was nothing to discuss.

Overall, I just see a lot of coasting and doing things to appear town rather than actually find scum from Raskol.

Unvote, Vote: Raskol

---

AGar I'm not going to go majorly in depth on at the moment because after that reread I'm very tired of looking at the computer, but I would say that he seemed overly lost yesterday. He only voted ekiM and when he was replaced he didn't really have a clue of what to do. I've played with AGar as town and, while he was a bit sloppy there, he most certainly did not tunnel so hard, nor was he devoid of ideas for scumhunting. Not liking it at all.

---

I'm not sure what I feel about ODDin. In some ways, I can understand what people are getting upset about, but another part of me just thinks he's really an overly tunneling townie. I could be wrong I guess, but I'm not feeling that lynch as much as I am Raskol.

---

Obviously my reread garnered more information than this, but I think that's enough for now. I upped my town reads on some people, but I don't think that's necessary to reveal. Apart from Raskol and AGar, I'm not the biggest fan of Scien, ABR, or PapaZ, but I don't know if I'd prefer any of their lynches over the first two.

[VP Baltar]

Yeah, and I second Oj's request for a

deadline extension, mod?

If not, people just need to organize and lynch scum-Raskol.

[Albert B. Rampage]

I'm trying to figure out Mr. Rampage. Suspicious of Amished slot, and I have a hard time reading ABR.
I notice his 3 suspects are all from the 4 current vote getters.
AGar stuff I see where he's coming from, in fact I've thought along the same lines at times. Relatable, although I don't like it as much when the thoughts are too similar (points to easyish).
ODDin FoS is either gut or a bunch of unclarity with a nod to nk speculation.

In fact, almost his entire posting record pertains or is addressed to Sando or Serial. Check his postin in iso. Both dead now. So scary.

This is inaccurate on a skim.

ABR, what do you think about Papa Zito? VP Baltar?

No, it's pretty accurate. In iso, post 18, post 16, 15, 14, 13, 12, 11, 10 and 9 all mention Sando / Serial in some way. You can't deny he had a special focus on them.

I have a town read on both of them. I don't fully understand why Zito is suspicious and Baltar hasn't done anything scummy.