Not reading your role PM

[mikeburnfire]

We need more games with the "siblings" role.

[Yosarian2]

Well, let's take a look at why the first point is wrong. Realistically, the only thing your role tells you is alignment and ability, neither of which is necessary to know on day one. The other flavor information will never, ever get utilized on day one, and instead is part of the game mechanics that tend to get passed over until later in the game (usually day 2 or day 3).

I'm not talking about the flavor information. I'm talking about who your scum partners are, and, by extention, who the town is, if there's only one scum group.

This is incredibly useful information. By knowing who the town is and who the scum is, you can act in a way that will EITHER help your side more then you could without that information, or in a way that will make you look more pro-town then you possibly could without that infromation, or sometimes even both.

If I'm town, and there's a shitty case on player A, I'll probably defend him against it. If I'm scum, and there's a shitty case on player A and I know he's town, I'll probably defend him ineffectually, so he'll get lynched anyway but I'll look good in the process; or else I'll act in such a way so he gets lynched without me taking any blame for it. If I'm scum, and there's a shitty case on player A and I know he's my scumbuddy, I might defend him if I know I can win, or I might bus like a mofo and get tons of town credit for it.

That's a simplification, of course; it depends on a lot of factors, like who else is in the game and what kinds of scum tells they look for.

But in general, if you want to look pro-town, and you're good enough to not make obvious tells or connections, it's quite helpful to know who the town and the scum are.

While, on the other hand, if I am pro-town, I'll often take bigger risks on day 1 to get more information. lt works, but doing that as scum as foolish, since it increases your odds of getting lynched.

I can establish myself as a pro-town player regardless of my alignment on day one instead of beginning to reveal tells.

Even if you can act just like a townie without reading your role PM, that just means that, all else being equal, you come out of day 1 on about the same level of pro-townie-ness as the 9 other people who actually do have a pro-town role PM. That's not much of an advantage.

[shaft.ed]

^I agree with Yosarian2^

[mikeburnfire]

I think he's made a VERY good argument!

[shaft.ed]

I think he's made a VERY good argument!

I guess he didn't read his role PM

[Quagmire]

Does Yosarian2 have the status now that whenever he makes a post 2-4 people follow him with "I agree with Yosarian2" or "Yosarian2 just won the thread" regardless of the post he made?

[zoraster]

Does Yosarian2 have the status now that whenever he makes a post 2-4 people follow him with "I agree with Yosarian2" or "Yosarian2 just won the thread" regardless of the post he made?

When he's right.

[Quagmire]

I'm not talking about the flavor information. I'm talking about who your scum partners are, and, by extention, who the town is, if there's only one scum group.

This is incredibly useful information. By knowing who the town is and who the scum is, you can act in a way that will EITHER help your side more then you could without that information, or in a way that will make you look more pro-town then you possibly could without that infromation, or sometimes even both.

If I'm town, and there's a shitty case on player A, I'll probably defend him against it. If I'm scum, and there's a shitty case on player A and I know he's town, I'll probably defend him ineffectually, so he'll get lynched anyway but I'll look good in the process; or else I'll act in such a way so he gets lynched without me taking any blame for it. If I'm scum, and there's a shitty case on player A and I know he's my scumbuddy, I might defend him if I know I can win, or I might bus like a mofo and get tons of town credit for it.

That's a simplification, of course; it depends on a lot of factors, like who else is in the game and what kinds of scum tells they look for.

But in general, if you want to look pro-town, and you're good enough to not make obvious tells or connections, it's quite helpful to know who the town and the scum are.

While, on the other hand, if I am pro-town, I'll often take bigger risks on day 1 to get more information. lt works, but doing that as scum as foolish, since it increases your odds of getting lynched.

I dunno, I think this is too gross of an oversimplification to take it seriously... It's still more worth it in the long run to look like a townsperson on day one, regardless of who's who. Other than "I might bus my scumbuddy or defend him," how does your strategy differ whether or not you've read your role regardless?

I can establish myself as a pro-town player regardless of my alignment on day one instead of beginning to reveal tells.

Even if you can act just like a townie without reading your role PM, that just means that, all else being equal, you come out of day 1 on about the same level of pro-townie-ness as the 9 other people who actually do have a pro-town role PM. That's not much of an advantage.

It is. Think of it this way...

When I act like a townsperson day one, I've formulated my suspicions and determined a specific set of people who have acted like townies and scum. With that determined, I now have an idea of who I plan to attack in future days and who I plan on defending, which is where most of the competitive advantage comes from.

[The Fonz]

If you don't know your win condition on day 1 then you are not truly playing to win.

Bingo. You're not playing to win, so you are breaking the fundamental rule underpinning the game.

Also, people who claim to have not read their role should be policy-lynched on sight, for obvious reasons.

I haven't read my role PM on day one since like 2006. Should I be policy lynched?

EVERY. FUCKING. TIME.

(In actual fact, you should be prevented from joining games in the first place. But meh).

[shaft.ed]

I dunno, I think this is too gross of an oversimplification to take it seriously... It's still more worth it in the long run to look like a townsperson on day one, regardless of who's who. Other than "I might bus my scumbuddy or defend him," how does your strategy differ whether or not you've read your role regardless?

There are all kinds of strategic options you can go with. The entire advantage of being mafia comes from knowing who is who. You're throwing that away if you are scum and you haven't read your PM. For example I was in a game with an atrocious partner. I could tell they were going to be lynched early in the game. So I did a decent job of making a case against him that I probably wouldn't have as town and tying as many of his defenders to him as physically possible. In the end this helped me win the game when a day before LyLo mislynch drove itself due to the seeds I had been planting since Day 1 and I was able to convince a confirmed cop to vote the other way a LyLo because I didn't have to get my hands dirty.

It just seems to me that you are playing this way because you want to look like town. Thus there is no advantage to be gained if you are actually town. And when you are scum, you're throwing away the inherent advantage of the role, informed minority. Your argument is that said information is a detriment because it makes you play differently. But that's the whole point of having it so that you do play differently.

[Raskol]

Your argument is that said information is a detriment because it makes you play differently. But that's the whole point of having it so that you do play differently.

That's a good point. The best play as mafia

isn't

to play exactly as you would if you were town---not even close. You have to play as antitown as you can, but in such a way that people

don't realise

that it's antitown. As mafia, one of your goals is to look town, but you have others. You have to hunt down power roles (especially investigators), incriminate innocents, confuse people, and generally control the game as best you can. If you don't read your role pm, you get a free pass on looking town (at least, to the degree that you're not simply scummy by default as a player), but you completely give up the opportunity to do all the

other

things you should be doing as scum. The only way that's beneficial to you is if you're a poor enough player that you can't pursue a scum agenda while still looking town.

Even ignoring 'spirit of the game' type arguments (which is I suppose what you're calling the

fact

that not reading your role pm means you're essentially not playing), not reading your role pm limits you to mediocre play at best, as scum. A similar thing can be said if you're a power role---hiding the fact that you're a power role is only half the story there, too.

Also, I'd have to say that I very much doubt that even the supposed benefit of not reading your role pm (always playing just like you would as vanilla) actually holds. As vanilla town, you see, you know you're town, and you know you're

not

scum and you're know you're

not

a PR and that knowledge affects your behavior and influences your decisions. When you haven't read your role pm, I'd imagine the uncertainty involved would have an effect on your play---you won't really play exactly as you would if you were a vanilla townie.

[Seol]

Quag: What's the point of playing Mafia with people if they don't know their role?

[eleven knives in a throat]

Not reading your role PM is a sound anti-town strategy. As such, anyone doing it should be policy lynched so that it stops being a sound anti-town strategy.

And night starts are vastly superior to day starts anyways.

[ortolan]

Not reading your role PM is a sound anti-town strategy. As such, anyone doing it should be policy lynched so that it stops being a sound anti-town strategy.

And night starts are vastly superior to day starts anyways.

you don't know whether or not they are reading it unless they publicly announce such, and if everyone does that; they can just lie.

[chamber]

Its improper to do because its not playing mafia. End of story. No arguments about it as an invalid strategy should need to be presented past that point. Mafia can't be played if no one knows they are mafia. The game is all about spotting subtle differences caused by what you are avoiding(knowing your role).

I hate having to suggest this but the only answer I can come up with is having everyone paraphrase their pm back at you during confirmation. Its annoying that this will now need to be standard practice for me when I mod. I hope other mods also start doing this( or using night starts, which I disagree with for other reasons).

[Ectomancer]

The "spirit of the game" argument holds no water. Strategically, it's far better not to read your role PM. We're not talking about ethics, morals, or whatever, we're talking about strategy. All's fair in love and mafia.

The "play to your win condition"

does

apply here. You can't play to it if you don't know what it is. It is absolutely necessary for you to be aware of your alignment to fulfill the "play to your win condition" rules of mafia. Just because it is possible to ignore it and still be responding to a thread is a point completely irrelevant when determining whether you are actually playing the game.

See, that's bullshit. Let's consider the 3 situations here, and see if you're actually playing to win:

You're town-aligned

Of course this means you're playing to win, as you're scumhunting and playing like a townsperson in general.

You're scum-aligned

This still means you're playing to win D1, as you're masking yourself very effectively as a townsperson, which will set you up for future days and it deceives the rest of the town, assuming you're doing a good job of being townie of course.

You're third-party aligned

See Scum-aligned.

No, your response is bullshit. You are only

assuming

that you know the win condition of any of the possible 3 groups you've listed. In addition, you are altering the precondition of playing to win to be "play to win day 1", which is absolutely not playing to win the game. Even then, in your ignorance you are wrong.

Role PM says "You are scum with player X. You win if you and player x are the only 2 players remaining. You lose if player x dies."

lynch player X!

Congratulations. You just lost the game.

[Quagmire]

I dunno, I think this is too gross of an oversimplification to take it seriously... It's still more worth it in the long run to look like a townsperson on day one, regardless of who's who. Other than "I might bus my scumbuddy or defend him," how does your strategy differ whether or not you've read your role regardless?

There are all kinds of strategic options you can go with. The entire advantage of being mafia comes from knowing who is who. You're throwing that away if you are scum and you haven't read your PM. For example I was in a game with an atrocious partner. I could tell they were going to be lynched early in the game. So I did a decent job of making a case against him that I probably wouldn't have as town and tying as many of his defenders to him as physically possible. In the end this helped me win the game when a day before LyLo mislynch drove itself due to the seeds I had been planting since Day 1 and I was able to convince a confirmed cop to vote the other way a LyLo because I didn't have to get my hands dirty.

It just seems to me that you are playing this way because you want to look like town. Thus there is no advantage to be gained if you are actually town. And when you are scum, you're throwing away the inherent advantage of the role, informed minority. Your argument is that said information is a detriment because it makes you play differently. But that's the whole point of having it so that you do play differently.

From all the years I've played, I've realized it's optimum strategy to be viewed as town on Day 1, as that sets you apart from other players generally... not in the sense that 'you're seen as blending in' but instead 'that guy is solidly town.' This makes a difference in future days, because any scummy slipup you make will be taken in context with your fruitful day one scumhunting.

With that said, you're really only giving up your informed minority in the small portion of the game where it doesn't really matter. As you said yourself, sometimes you want to bus your partner, and sometimes you want to defend him -- except in this case you're doing it blindly. There really isn't much difference when you stop and think about it.

[Quagmire]

The "spirit of the game" argument holds no water. Strategically, it's far better not to read your role PM. We're not talking about ethics, morals, or whatever, we're talking about strategy. All's fair in love and mafia.

The "play to your win condition"

does

apply here. You can't play to it if you don't know what it is. It is absolutely necessary for you to be aware of your alignment to fulfill the "play to your win condition" rules of mafia. Just because it is possible to ignore it and still be responding to a thread is a point completely irrelevant when determining whether you are actually playing the game.

See, that's bullshit. Let's consider the 3 situations here, and see if you're actually playing to win:

You're town-aligned

Of course this means you're playing to win, as you're scumhunting and playing like a townsperson in general.

You're scum-aligned

This still means you're playing to win D1, as you're masking yourself very effectively as a townsperson, which will set you up for future days and it deceives the rest of the town, assuming you're doing a good job of being townie of course.

You're third-party aligned

See Scum-aligned.

No, your response is bullshit. You are only

assuming

that you know the win condition of any of the possible 3 groups you've listed. In addition, you are altering the precondition of playing to win to be "play to win day 1", which is absolutely not playing to win the game. Even then, in your ignorance you are wrong.

Role PM says "You are scum with player X. You win if you and player x are the only 2 players remaining. You lose if player x dies."

lynch player X!

Congratulations. You just lost the game.

As I've said before, I've never run into that situation in the 3 or so years I've been playing mafia without reading my role PM day one, so this argument is tantamount to "you shouldn't drive a car, because you might get into a car accident."

Also, if I'm 'playing to win day one,' and then I read my role PM and begin playing to win for that, am I not playing to win after day one as well, making your argument incorrect?

[Quagmire]

Also, I'd have to say that I very much doubt that even the supposed benefit of not reading your role pm (always playing just like you would as vanilla) actually holds. As vanilla town, you see, you know you're town, and you know you're

not

scum and you're know you're

not

a PR and that knowledge affects your behavior and influences your decisions. When you haven't read your role pm, I'd imagine the uncertainty involved would have an effect on your play---you won't really play exactly as you would if you were a vanilla townie.

How would you know until you've tried? It's not really hard to say "I don't know what I am, so I'll try and scumhunt until I do."

[Quagmire]

Quag: What's the point of playing Mafia with people if they don't know their role?

There isn't one... fortunately I'm the only one who thinks this strategy works, so I don't really have to worry about future games where half the players aren't reading their PMs before the game starts.

[Zachrulez]

Quag: What's the point of playing Mafia with people if they don't know their role?

There isn't one... fortunately I'm the only one who thinks this strategy works, so I don't really have to worry about future games where half the players aren't reading their PMs before the game starts.

Actually I know of at least one other guy who does. Oh... guess what happened to him in that game?

Things I have learned from this thread.

1. Policy lynch anyone who claims to have not read their role pm.

2. All mods should require via confirmation a PM containing the player's role name at the very least. (I always presumed everyone read their role pms, but that assumption is apparently in error.)

3. Not reading your role pm is cheating. You're cheating everyone in the game by depriving them of information that is supposed to be available to them, you're cheating whichever side you're supposed to be playing for, and you're cheating yourself. (Someone should seriously just make you a day 1 jester.)

[Seol]

If I was modding, and someone ever claimed to have not read their role PM, I'd auto-replace them and blacklist from my future games. I don't think it's something we need to inconvenience ourselves over otherwise.

[Battousai]

And here's another game where the player claims to not have read their role pm

page 42

I tried to get them lynched for it, but I didn't get enough support.

[shaft.ed]

With that said, you're really only giving up your informed minority in the small portion of the game where it doesn't really matter. As you said yourself, sometimes you want to bus your partner, and sometimes you want to defend him -- except in this case you're doing it blindly.

Doing things blindly really seems suboptimal to me. I don't know why you feel so insecure about your scum game that you have to play in this manner. And you've basically replied as though the difference is rather subtle between reading and not reading your PM. It seems as though the strategy may be a thing that works for you, but I have a feeling you just like stirring the pot. I personally wouldn't try this because it would remove quite a bit of enjoyment from the game for me.

I'm still not decided how I feel about this practice from a mod's perspective. I like players to have freedom, but at the same time, if EVERYONE decided to play in this manner the game would be completely non-functional on Day1. I will most likely combat such tactics with a prevelance of roles that would greatly benefit from reading their PM pre-game rather than flat out blacklisting players.

[Raskol]

It's not really hard to say "I don't know what I am, so I'll try and scumhunt until I do."

No, but my point is that there are differences in your play that will come out subconsciously. The only reason (I imagine) that you think not reading your role PM is a good idea is because you believe the knowledge will affect your play, unconsciously and whether you like it or not, in ways that could be bad if you're scum or have a PR---but what I'm saying is, not knowing you're town (and especially, not knowing you're vanilla town) will make you play differently than you do as town, just as surely and unavoidably as knowing you're not town will.

I'm still not decided how I feel about this practice from a mod's perspective. I like players to have freedom, but at the same time, if EVERYONE decided to play in this manner the game would be completely non-functional on Day1. I will most likely combat such tactics with a prevelance of roles that would greatly benefit from reading their PM pre-game rather than flat out blacklisting players.

If I were to mod a game, I'd prevent this 'tactic' by requiring players to pm me their role name and win condition in order to confirm. Players retain their freedom not to play in games with such rulesets