Mini 859 - Cleansing of Falls Church - Over

[BigBear]

Let's do this quote war style:


By end of D1 activities you mean what? The last ten posts before the lynch scene? How was my day 1 case against you not a end of day 1 activity? How did you miss it?

I went over this i already.

This doesn't answer the main point. What is so scummy about that case? I don't see it at all.

What's scummy about the case is, it came up nearly out of no where, and most of your points against me where in the first 10 pages, why did it take you 30 pages to get to them? Your case against me, is similar to your defense against my case against you. If you follow that. Basically, there was a large gap between my actions, and your case, all the while you were still active in the game. It felt that you were trying to derail DJ's wagon near deadline. While My case against you was rather delayed, it was because I was inactive. now you are blaming me for not bringing the case up earlier, and that's pretty much your defense against my case, that i'm scummy because I didn't bring it up right away. I can say the same thing against you. I'm just saying.

Also, if you policy lynch people for jester speculation, why haven't you given Furry any trouble? Bagel bites, man. Nook did just as much jester speculation as DRK did.

Negative. DRK brought up the Jester Idea. Nook appeared to be clarifying, in some sense. Though you could pin him with bringing it up, I still feel that DRK heavily hinted at it.

The reason I didn't bring up that stuff at the time is because I didn't notice it as weird at the time. I didn't want to lynch DJ after he caught up, especially after he claimed power role, so I was looking for other lynch options.

So what made me stand out as opposed to other players?

I believe I explained this. I thought the DRK wagon was a good place to look because everyone on it was ridiculous, and your posts seemed scummier than KoC's.

How was DRK's wagon ridiculous?

Uh, so because I incorrectly assumed that you actually read the thread, somehow I'm in the wrong?

I just don't understand why you were surprised that I wasn't voting for you.

It's not baiting. It's INCORRECTLY ASSUMING YOU AREN'T TERRIBLE.

So I didn't fall for your trap?

Also, what did that have to do with the post you linked to?

It is what I felt was baiting i think.

I can see reasons why a town power might want to soft claim instead of full claim.

I disagree, a "town" player soft claiming and refusing to full claim at L-1/L-2 is scummy in my eyes.

That's not a disagreement. That's an irrelevant statement to my point. Easy mistake, I know. How does you thinking that conflict with me seeing reasons why a town power might want to soft claim? Hint: It doesn't.

I can see reasons why a town power might not want to full claim, because if they actually are town power, it only really helps the mafia. I guess general best practice is for town power to full claim, but that doesn't change the fact that I understood the perspective DJ was faking.

No, because at L-1 soft claiming is a way for scum to persuade town into keeping them alive for a night. If town were to be at L-1 they are more likely to full claim in hopes of the town believing them, and if they have several investigations completed, or actions that would make sense, the town would be more likely to keep them around. I've seen more scum soft claim at L-1 then town. The only time I really soft claimed was early in day 2 in Day Night Mafia, then I claimed shortly after. But generally as town I full claim right away.

BigBear was a fan of KoC avoiding the question for no reason, as I recall.

I think that's even weirder than KoC's question dodging.

But speaking of question dodging, KoC, did you ever get back to post 1072?

I'm a fan of gambits in general.

So you probably have some insight into what KoC is trying to pull here, right? We are all kind of in the dark about this so if you want to explain that one, that would be solid.

Why do you think that I know what's going through his head? He's practically going AWOL.

Is question dodging for no reason a gambit now?

No, it's not a cop-out, at the time I felt it more of a gambit, after his actions now, i would agree that he's dodging questions.

By the way, I'm totally down with archaebob being under some fire for his opinion, if only because I'm little taken aback with him not being totally down to lynch me. He knows why.

Why do you want everyone to be suspicious of you? This reminds me of DTM self voting and putting a case against himself at the beginning of day 2 of Battle Mafia. hmm....

Just like town-BigBear, I feel like archaebob has special reason to mistrust me. I hardly think two people constitute everyone.

Does this deal with Meta?

@ Sanjay
- What'd holding you up on BigBear? Why don't you vote KoC like everyone else?

- Are you not voting Eleven right now because you don't want anymore votes on KoC to compensate for your

insurgency

?

I guess those two could be put together if either flipped scum.

Really and truly? Do you really think my not moving my vote from you was unjustified in the slightest? You hadn't posted a response to anything I said.

I'll post a TLDR version of this post in my next post.

sure :X whatever?? (What does TLDR mean :X)

---

-Furry
--So wait... I guess I was confused because your post made it look like your top subject was KoC, then Sanjay, then me.

---

Was your point that you are scum?

I don't know because I only read pages that have lynch scenes on them.

That's a nice hasty generalization there. And i can prove you wrong. Just look at This post.

Because a week is so long to remember that someone tried to vote for you for extremely scummy reasons.

Why even vote? Because DRK asked you to? The deadline lynch rules made your vote entirely irrelevant.

Besides, page 41 is a really wacky page. You are telling me that reading that didn't make you the least bit curious to look back a page to see how we came to that?

This all just seems so implausible, BigBear.

1. It is, especially if I didn't read page 40 right away.
2. Yes, I was unaware of the deadline rules, and there was no way another lynch was going to occur.
3. How is it wacky? Nope, I wasn't curious. If I looked at page 40, i would have been mostly concerned with the case against DJ, not you.
4.It's really not. You just don't want to believe me.

If you had brought this up a week ago, you'd have a relatively good case against me that would happen to be wrong. I wouldn't be suspicious of you for that. I really don't see what is inherently scummy about my day 1 post against you as you implied, but duh duh duh, I've been over this a thousand million times that I wouldn't be suspicious of you if you had come out of the gate swinging at me.

It's just that you used a bunch of EARLY day 1 activities (first 10 or so pages) to build a semi case against me, and used it 30 pages later. It just seems fishy to me, and like you were trying to derail the DJ wagon.

---

DRK, as I am looking into this post of yours, I can agree that CA acts like he has insider information. Not the bolded so much, but the four words after the bolded.

---

Sanjay, what is your case against Eleven?

I could see Archebob and Sanjay both being scum.
-I would be satisfied with either of their lynches.

Looker, the reason I added you to the list is you are basically unreadable. If I can't lynch a scummy read, I'd rather lynch someone I can't read than someone I feel like I can.

Then don't ever play with mastin. I tend to save unreadable players for Night Kills and Investigations when I have power roles. Just a little Meta tip for you guys out there

Also, scum may just resort to a screw you attitude to try to avoid lynch

I half expected to see a KoC Post there.

So what are you suggesting? Zazie's replacement is scum with DJ?

The difference between DJ's screw you attitude and KoC's is timing. DJ's came after his lynch was probably coming through and it didn't matter. KoC's came at a time when everyone was like "oh, there's a deadline coming up, I wonder who we should lynch". Seems like a ridiculously bad time for mafia to do that. I guess it could be a WIFOMy thing, but it seems pretty darn risky, especially with a day one scum lynch.

Basically this post is why I'm okay about KoC's jester vote.

Here's what I don't like about BigBear's defense:

*I think I have a good case against him and it seems like he is acting like I don't.
*Also, he brought up my scumminess as if it had anything to do with my case against him here.

So, in loo of recent events, do you mind reiterating your case against me? That I may shoot it down... again.

Life Lessons from BigBear

1. Whenever player A put a case against player B, Player B will always think it's shit.

[semioldguy]

Do you find the little spat between Sanjay and I as Scum-Scum?

I think it could be.

[BigBear]

Do you find the little spat between Sanjay and I as Scum-Scum?

I think it could be.

That would be one hell of a Bus between us.



Looker, what do you make of this quote?

unvote, vote: bigbear

bb it is. looker, please switch.

[Sanjay]

I guess I'm never taking a life lesson from BigBear.

[Looker]

Do you find the little spat between Sanjay and I as Scum-Scum?

I think it could be.

That would be one hell of a Bus between us.



Looker, what do you make of this quote?

unvote, vote: bigbear

bb it is. looker, please switch.

Flow of events

Bad things happened tonight, so this is kinda jisted.

Current suspicions: Sanjay & Don_Johnson as Mafia

Therefore,

unvote
vote Don_Johnson

Sorry for the lack of words

@Looker
You really confuse me sometimes...

Vote Count

don_johnson (4)

- ZazieR Shrinehme Looker ConfidAnon
Raskol (1) - Furry
DeathRowKitty (2) - don_johnson BigBear
ZazieR (1) - archaebob
BigBear (2) - Sanjay DeathRowKitty

Not voting: Knight of Cydonia Raskol

With 12 alive is takes 7 to lynch.

Looking for a replacement for Shrinehme and Raskol

DEADLINE SET: 10 Nov 2009 (Tues) @ 11pm EST

unvote, vote: bigbear

bb it is. looker, please switch.

Possible reasons for DJ singling me out
- I am considered the weakest and most logically inept as well as easily persuaded player in a variety of the games I'm in (I was the stupid zany chick)
- I was the last person to vote DJ, having voted him a few posts before after DRK had switched his vote from DJ
- DJ was striving for self-preservation and grasping for whomever was present
*** If there are any scummy implications that may arise from that post, just let me know so that I can share my opinion if not refute them entirely.


And you're never wrong if it's your job to be right

[BigBear]

Looker, it just seems slightly damning. Like a dying scum screaming to his partner that he cannot out of game talk to, begging you to switch your vote. I know I can't really push a case on it. It just seems odd that he pointed you out.

Besides, DRK had said that he didn't understand you, not DJ. And I don't understand how that insinuates that you are an easily persuaded player.

[Looker]

Well I've played games with DJ before and his comments regarding me haven't really changed in many of them. To be honest, there's not a really high opinion of my performance site-wide so I can see how he could believe simply telling me to switch my vote would cause me to do so. It's more of an insult to me than anything else, or at least that's how I took/take it. Not that I'm offended.

[Sanjay]

BigBear.

Seriously.

Get this through your head.

I WAS TRYING TO DERAIL THE DJ WAGON. I WAS TRYING TO GET YOU LYNCHED INSTEAD OF DJ.

I wasn't in the least bit coy about this on day 1. Maybe you are just reading the thread now so all of a sudden that's a big discovery, but you are acting like you are accusing me of something I'm denying. Given the soft-claim, and then given the full claim, I wanted to let DJ live through the night and I wanted to lynch someone else.

The fact that

you

wouldn't soft-claim is absolutely irrelevant. The only thing that is relevant is how likely it is that, on day 1, town-Sanjay wouldn't think the soft-claim was scummy.

The reason I was bringing up old stuff was for two reasons. One, I was rereading the thread looking for new stuff, because I wanted to find someone to lynch besides the people I really had in my sights all day. Two, some of the stuff, like your jester vote, looked bad considering how totally comfortable you were with jester speculation. The DRK wagon was ridiculous because I felt like all the votes on it were lazy and easy.

THIS is my defense. The stuff about me thinking you are scum has nothing to do with my defense against your posts. Sure, if you end up flipping scum I'm not going to look so bad anymore, but my defense is pretty much "I made a bad call, my bad."

Once DJ flipped, my reaction was basically "Well, Looker will never forgive me for this." The player I was defending flipped scum. I really want you to be scum too, BigBear, so it doesn't mean I messed up as bad, but there was one player that would know this is not the case, and that's town-BigBear. So when you started the thread looking elsewhere, I was suspicious of you.

That suspicion was based on the QUITE REASONABLE ASSUMPTION that you actually read the thread before posting. If you are town that assumption is incorrect, that's really awful. You are telling me you voted DJ without even looking at his cop claim, without even seeing if there were any alternative lynch candidates, without looking at basically anything. That is so amazingly lazy and terrible. I mean, what if DJ had flipped town? How would that have been when we asked you about your vote? "Oh, well I didn't actually

read

the thread, I'm so busy you see."

That is my case against you.

I'll answer some stuff in your post directly in my next post. For what it is worth, I'm getting really frustrated with you. You are being

really

obtuse. If this isn't deliberate, could you please stop?

[Sanjay]

Also, you didn't even read page 40 when you decided to vote DRK? What?

Do you see why this is terrible play from town?

[Sanjay]

(That was not me responding to BigBear's posts directly)

[Sanjay]

What's scummy about the case is, it came up nearly out of no where, and most of your points against me where in the first 10 pages, why did it take you 30 pages to get to them? Your case against me, is similar to your defense against my case against you. If you follow that. Basically, there was a large gap between my actions, and your case, all the while you were still active in the game. It felt that you were trying to derail DJ's wagon near deadline. While My case against you was rather delayed, it was because I was inactive. now you are blaming me for not bringing the case up earlier, and that's pretty much your defense against my case, that i'm scummy because I didn't bring it up right away. I can say the same thing against you. I'm just saying.

I have explained why my case came late, and you have explained why my case on you was late, and you have explained why my case on you was late. If I have a problem with your explanation, how is it relevant that there is this similarity between our cases. I'm just saying.

Also, if you policy lynch people for jester speculation, why haven't you given Furry any trouble? Bagel bites, man. Nook did just as much jester speculation as DRK did.

Negative. DRK brought up the Jester Idea. Nook appeared to be clarifying, in some sense. Though you could pin him with bringing it up, I still feel that DRK heavily hinted at it.

Not a big deal because I guess I can believe you misread the conversation as town because it seems like everyone did, but I'm almost certain nook started up jester speculation independently of what DRK said.

How was DRK's wagon ridiculous?

The people voting on it were doing it for lazy reasons and I felt like the justification for voting for DRK, a player I felt was relatively pro-town, was pretty lousy.

Uh, so because I incorrectly assumed that you actually read the thread, somehow I'm in the wrong?

I just don't understand why you were surprised that I wasn't voting for you.

Because I lead a bandwagon towards you away from scum? Do you not recall the reason you are voting for me now?

It's not baiting. It's INCORRECTLY ASSUMING YOU AREN'T TERRIBLE.

So I didn't fall for your trap?

It's not a trap to assume that town-BigBear would act like I would expect town-BigBear to act.

Also, what did that have to do with the post you linked to?

It is what I felt was baiting i think.

I guess so. I wanted to see what would happen if I called for a bandwagon. If you want to call that baiting fine.

I can see reasons why a town power might want to soft claim instead of full claim.

I disagree, a "town" player soft claiming and refusing to full claim at L-1/L-2 is scummy in my eyes.

That's not a disagreement. That's an irrelevant statement to my point. Easy mistake, I know. How does you thinking that conflict with me seeing reasons why a town power might want to soft claim? Hint: It doesn't.

I can see reasons why a town power might not want to full claim, because if they actually are town power, it only really helps the mafia. I guess general best practice is for town power to full claim, but that doesn't change the fact that I understood the perspective DJ was faking.

No, because at L-1 soft claiming is a way for scum to persuade town into keeping them alive for a night. If town were to be at L-1 they are more likely to full claim in hopes of the town believing them, and if they have several investigations completed, or actions that would make sense, the town would be more likely to keep them around. I've seen more scum soft claim at L-1 then town. The only time I really soft claimed was early in day 2 in Day Night Mafia, then I claimed shortly after. But generally as town I full claim right away.

BigBear, whether I am town or scum, please assume that I am a rational person that has some reasoning behind what he is saying.

YOUR FEELINGS ABOUT SOFT CLAIMS, ESPECIALLY SINCE YOU DID NOT VOICE THEM ON DAY 1, HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS SITUATION.

If you don't understand why, ask.

So you probably have some insight into what KoC is trying to pull here, right? We are all kind of in the dark about this so if you want to explain that one, that would be solid.

Why do you think that I know what's going through his head? He's practically going AWOL. [/quote][/quote]

Well, what did you think KoC was doing when you approved of it?

Your endorsement of his behavior probably isn't scummy, but it was really anti-town.

Just like town-BigBear, I feel like archaebob has special reason to mistrust me. I hardly think two people constitute everyone.

Does this deal with Meta?

Yup. I broke archaebob's heart once.

sure :X whatever?? (What does TLDR mean :X)

TLDR: Too Long, Didn't Read. I like to summarize my points after a really big post sometimes. Makes everything more readable.

Was your point that you are scum?

I don't know because I only read pages that have lynch scenes on them.

That's a nice hasty generalization there. And i can prove you wrong. Just look at This post.

I was making fun of you for your claim that you only read page 41. How did you not get that? (That's a rhetorical question, by the way)

Because a week is so long to remember that someone tried to vote for you for extremely scummy reasons.

Why even vote? Because DRK asked you to? The deadline lynch rules made your vote entirely irrelevant.

Besides, page 41 is a really wacky page. You are telling me that reading that didn't make you the least bit curious to look back a page to see how we came to that?

This all just seems so implausible, BigBear.

1. It is, especially if I didn't read page 40 right away.
2. Yes, I was unaware of the deadline rules, and there was no way another lynch was going to occur.
3. How is it wacky? Nope, I wasn't curious. If I looked at page 40, i would have been mostly concerned with the case against DJ, not you.
4.It's really not. You just don't want to believe me.

BigBear, you are asking me to believe you are a very anti-town player. Tremendously anti-town. Should I not consider that implausible?

If you had brought this up a week ago, you'd have a relatively good case against me that would happen to be wrong. I wouldn't be suspicious of you for that. I really don't see what is inherently scummy about my day 1 post against you as you implied, but duh duh duh, I've been over this a thousand million times that I wouldn't be suspicious of you if you had come out of the gate swinging at me.

It's just that you used a bunch of EARLY day 1 activities (first 10 or so pages) to build a semi case against me, and used it 30 pages later. It just seems fishy to me, and like you were trying to derail the DJ wagon.

So when are you going to start reading day 2? Tomorrow I guess?

Sanjay, what is your case against Eleven?

Basically, Raskol's unvote was very weird and while less successful than me, I'm kind of suspicious of him for trying to lead a competing bandwagon away from DJ. Read my posts for more information.

Before you accuse me of hypocrisy, it's not like I have ever pretended that leading a competing bandwagon away from scum wasn't a scumtell.

Also, scum may just resort to a screw you attitude to try to avoid lynch

I half expected to see a KoC Post there.

So what are you suggesting? Zazie's replacement is scum with DJ?

Was this a mistake? I believe semioldguy is Zazie's replacement. Otherwise, clarify?

So, in loo of recent events, do you mind reiterating your case against me? That I may shoot it down... again.

Don't remember this happening the first time.

Life Lessons from BigBear

1. Whenever player A put a case against player B, Player B will always think it's shit.

Is this supposed to apply to me? I don't think your case against me is shit. I was saying it happens to be wrong and I am suspicious of you for how late it came.

Though actually,

Unvote

I had a breakthrough.

[Sanjay]

BigBear lying about not having read day 1 until like ten minutes ago, while implausible, is just as implausible from a scum perspective as a town perspective. If he is scum and he was aware of my case against him all along, would he really wait so long on voting for me? Why wouldn't he just go after me right away?

As implausible as it is, I have to admit that he is probably telling the truth, that he didn't read the thread when voting, that he's tremendously anti-town, and unfortunately, town.

Dang.

Plus all this obnoxious righteous indignation bullshit he is giving me is giving me a town read on him.

[Looker]

[input witty analysis with sadomasochistic undertone]

[Looker]

Since I have nothing better to do, here's a random votecount...

Sanjay (3) - Looker, BigBear, Semioldguy
Cydonia (3) - Deathrow, Archaebob, Eleven
Eleven (2) - Furry, Knight of Stankonia
Bear (1) - Fitz
Bob (0) - N/A
Deathrow (0) - N/A
Furry (0) - N/A
Semioldguy (0) - N/A
Fitz (0) - N/A
Looker (0) - N/A

Not voting due to confusion, cowardice, paranoia, excessive diarrhea, etc...

My main man Sanjay

[Looker]

Well, that cowardice one is a bit much, but the others generally do apply...

[Kreriov]

Vote Count

BigBear (2) -havingfitz Furry
eleven knives in a throat (1) - Knight of Cydonia

Knight of Cydonia (3)

- eleven knives in a throat archaebob DeathRowKitty
Sanjay (3) - BigBear looker semioldguy

Not voting: Sanjay

With 10 alive it takes 6 to lynch

Deadline: Friday 11 Dec @ 11pm EST

[Knight of Cydonia]

If it's him or me, I know which one I prefer.

unvote; Vote Sanjay

[Looker]

Someone just lost their bus cherry. Didn't hurt as much as you thought it would, now did it?

Let's rack'em up.

[Sanjay]

KoC, it's a little early to make that judgment, don't you think?

Stop being so ridiculously anti-town.

[Looker]

And someone's not ashamed to try a little daytalk out in the open. This is absolutely beautiful.

You know what, you guys make life worth living.

[Sanjay]

Good one, Looker.

But it's true besides. Deadline is on Friday. No reason to make a "well I got to save myself" vote now.

Thoughts, KoC?

[Sanjay]

I'd be happy to respond to specific questions you had a problem with, but in general, most of my questions did not result in strong reads so I wasn't inclined to strong follow-up.

semioldguy, respond to this.

Here are some question marks if they help:

?????????????????????????????

[Looker]

Good one, Looker.

But it's true besides. Deadline is on Friday. No reason to make a "well I got to save myself" vote now.

Thoughts, KoC?

I have a feeling you're not all that concerned, especially with Furry's vote on BigBear being merely temporary. Fitz I doubt will change his vote to KoC at the last minute; however, KoC's recent vote-switch to you gives you plenty of time to compensate, not that I'm hesitatant to believe you haven't already.

All in all, I believe we'll see what happens.

[Sanjay]

Concerned about me being lynched today? Not really. It certainly could happen, but I'm not that worried about it.

Concerned that KoC is being very anti-town? Definitely.

Concerned I might have been wrong about my town read on KoC? Possibly.

The expected town response to "I see why you have been anti-town but could you please stop it" is to stop it. I don't know what's up with that. And his vote was kind of self-preservation-y. So I don't know.

But if I have to vote KoC to save myself I'm certainly going to feel a lot better about it.

[Furry]

I live near San Fransisco, it snowed here for the first time in basically forever, so ive been busy enjoying myself.

Going to be pissed if this turns into KoC/Sanjay so will get that stuff up on BB in an attempt to recitify the situation that is brewing. If this doesnt get fixed im going to have to do some serious research because niether of these wagons look appetizing to me.