Newbie 843 (Game Over)

[Starbuck]

Hello everyone!

Nice to see some familiar faces (Tubby, Zach and Cookie), and some new ones too!

I'll be catching up shortly.

[Starbuck]

May I ask for a deadline extension please?

I definitely think there needs to be one.

[Starbuck]

I'd just like to be caught up before deadline hits, but if you feel one isn't needed that's fine too.

[Starbuck]

I'm working on my thoughts in Notepad. I haven't forgotten about y'all!

[Starbuck]

I had my document almost all the way done so I could post it and the power went out and I lost everything.

I'm really hating Italian electricity currently.

[Starbuck]

Firstly,

Unvote: Whoever my Predecessor was voting for

And can someone tell me who david-villa-7 is?

[Starbuck]

And wasn't Soya replaced by PaltryExcuse?

If she's out of the game, why is she still posting?

[Starbuck]

Day 1

On my predecessor, Meji Fan

I really don't think that Meji's vote in Post 31 is as bad as Soyasushi was trying to make it out to be. I just think she was trying to start discussion, which I would think is fair given her join date on the site.

I really don't get Meji's question towards EC in Post 118. To me, it was pretty obvious that he built more of a case on Wrath than on Tubby. Wrath's lurking didn't really help him in this regard.

On PaltryExcuse (who repalced Soyasushi)

I don't care for Soya's contradiction in Post 32. She point blankly says that you shouldn't be someone at L-3 in Rvs, and then states that she did it because of Meji's "OMGUS". I also don't like Soya's Post 60:

So far, I have to say yernab continues to strike me as suspicious. He posts a long post about what he would do as scum but does the exact opposite, perhaps in hopes that it would throw suspicion off himself. After all, if someone were scum, he would be trying hard to do what his townie self would do. Your scum self and town self should have some sort of difference, but in yernab's case he showed them to be complete opposites, which strikes me as trying too hard to look town.

Then when attack, he got on the defensive, started using the "=P" smiley and went a bit omgus. Also, he's withholding his vote - because he's trying to see who he should vote for so as to not seem as suspicious?

I'm struggling between whether that's a newb town tell or a newb scum tell.

I don't like how she alludes to meta when this is yernab's first game. Depending on his aligment, he obviously doesn't know how he would play as the opposite alignment yet.

@Meji: Smileys to me often appear to be some form of appeared friendliness. The fact that he only put those smileys after being attacked seemed to be "I'll be friendly so you'll stop voting for me please".

I don't really understand how using an emoticon can be suspicious. This game can get heated very quickly, and sometimes the use of emoticons/smileys is crucial for making something light hearted vice a personal attack.

I am not liking Soya's Post 84. She seems to get rather condescending towards yernab. I really didn't feel him getting desperate or defensive. It definitely feels like Soya is trying too hard to cast suspicion onto yernab. I also don't like how she brushes off that she brought up the subject about smileys and then blames yernab for bringing it up when she was the one who made the big deal.

I definitely don't see the personal attacks that Soya alludes to yernab making in Post 122. Re-reading yernab, I don't see him being rude or disrespectful in anyway. Soya has been grasping quite a bit to get a case on yernab with this whole "trying to shift everyone's attention" stuff. I really didn't see him shifting attention. He called her bluff.

Soya's post 175 is odd to me because she thinks that bjl (who just replaced yernab) could really answer the question she's asking about yernab's actions. While yes, the replacement inherits the role and therefore the opinions of the rest of the players on that spot in the game, but you can't expect a replacement to know what their replacee was thinking.

On Zachrulez

Knowing how experienced Zach is, I do not care for his "bandwagoning for the sake of bandwagoning" in Post 45, and as an experienced player, he seems to be sitting back a little too much for my liking.

I don't like his jump onto Wrath's bandwagon in Post 164. Your whole reason for voting him is because he didn't want to make a scumlist? Not many people at this point had done so either.

On Ojanen (who replaced bjl who replaced yernab)

I really don't like yernab's WIFOM-y Post 50, but for a new player, I like that he's got a bit of a grasp of the game before walking into it.

On Tubby

I really don't like Tubby's lack of substance and parroting others. He seriously has added nothing more than "More posts!" and "I agree!"

With Tubby barely adding anything at all on Day 1, I really am suspicious of his hammer.

On manho

You really felt that the smiley discussion needed more discussion? Why? The use of smileys has nothing to do with whether or not a person is scum.

At this point, manho has not added anything to the game.

Actually, what Tubby said was true. Manho said he liked LoS when he was scum, but then he contradicts himself by saying he's only ever played as town.

This is a very good point.

Manho also seems to just take the easy route with his vote on Wrath.

On Kyiv (who replaced crazypianist who replaced lrd)

I'm not a fan of Crazy's reasoning for voting EC in Post 149. It definitely feels like parroting.

On EtherealCookie

I'm getting a pretty pro-town feel from EC. I like his entrance into the game in posts 116 and 117. Knowing Wrath's alignment as I read through, I can definitely see where he arose EC's suspicion. Wrath's quietness didn't help him as well as his OMGUS on EC in Post 131.

[Starbuck]

@Paltry - I didn't expect you to answer for her or respond. She's a completely different person than you. I just wanted to point out what I didn't like.

[Starbuck]

Day 2 - Beginning to Page 15

On my predecessor, Meji Fan

I definitely like her analysis in Post 294. I just don't like her constant tunnel on Ojanen/bjl/yernab. There are scummier people around, and she's only focusing there. As a mafia vet, I'd expect more than that.

On Ojanen (who replaced bjl who replaced yernab)

I definitely don't like bjl's comment in Post 231. Finding Mafia is a good source for scumslips for all of you new players. This could either be a breadcrumb or he's trying to come off like the doctor when he's really scum. Meji definitely hit this on the head in Post 234, as well as manho in Post 241.

I definitely don't like his refusal to defend himself, especially with how long he has been around MS.

On EtherealCookie

Throughout Day 1, I found EC very protown, but coming into Day 2. It really slipped away.

His lead off post into Day 2 just reeks of WIFOM:

I was wrong about Wrath. I'm surprised, honestly.

I'm definitely not liking this:

Why is it suspicious to assume first that we have a doctor? Nobody died tonight. It's not surprising someone might think there's a doctor.

It's definitely seeming like EC is trying to cover for bjl's scumslip.

Zach answered this for you in Post 237, and why this is a bad situation.


I really don't like Cookie's personal/ad hom attacks in Post 252 & Post 258. I also don't care for his overdefensiveness in Post 255,Post 258, and Post 299.

You said Zach felt pretty pro-town in Post 264. What has he done that makes you feel that way?

In Posts 268 through 270, you throw suspicion at almost everyone playing. It definitely seems to me that you are just trying to spread around your suspicion so you can jump on bandwagons easier.

From Post 285,

I'm honestly surprised that you don't find Tubby suspicious at all, or at least anti-town. He hasn't contributed anything.

If you are referring to just Day 1, then I could see this. He has contributed a bit on Day 2, but you definitely are trying to paint a scene that has not occurred. Nice strawman.


Statements like this:

No, I am sure bjl is town because I know who scum is now.

Prove to me that you know who's scum and who's not.

Because I'm not blind to scum tells like others.

You've only been playing since August on this site. Please stop acting like you are the almighty god of mafia.

I accidentally claimed, yea.

I definitely don't feel that his claim was an accident, but the other thing to remember is that scum aren't going to claim scum. They'll claim Vanilla Townie. EC did not claim Vanilla. He claimed Townie.


EC definitely is fencesitting pretty hard. He is up for any lynch in Post 322. Although, he's doing his best to distance himself from bjl.

On PaltryExcuse (who repalced Soyasushi)

I'm not liking Soya's jump onto the bjl wagon in Post 248.

Paltry replied to my Day 1 analysis with the fact that he thinks that Soya felt that the smiley argument didn't hold much weight but I'm finding otherwise in Post 261.

I'm definitely getting the feeling of tunneling from soya.

On Tubby

I'm still suspicious of his hammer and general lack of substance Day 1. He tries to redeem himself a bit in Post 256.

because i do not need to defend myself when there is scum about such as yourself

How can you call yourself an SE and talk like this? You are supposed to be showing the new players how to play, not sit here and be zwetastic.

I definitely don't like Tubby's threat towards Kyiv in Post 372. "So this is you one and only warning tread lightly"? Really now?

On Zachrulez

Why, with your experience playing mafia, do you keep parroting off of others like in Post 263? Can you not come up with your own case?

On manho

I'm getting a definite feeling of buddying from manho towards tubby. He goes out of his way to defend tubby whenever he can, but I do like his case on EC in Post 291 and Post 300

I really don't like this statement though:

no, i'm happy with crazy being replaced. the replacement should buy my case instead of yours, if you really have one. but you will have hope in it. but bjl shouldn't be replaced. he was sick, but he will not be sick forever. and now bjl is posting, and didn't ask for a replacement. the only reason why you want bjl to be replaced is that you two are scum-buddy and you want someone else to help defend bjl.

The replacement should buy your case?

And bjl shouldn't be replaced. He just said that he wasn't going to defend himself or participate further. I think it's perfectly sensible to ask for a replacement that will be active.

@tubby, maybe we can lynch bjl today and cookie tomorrow.

Setting up future lynches is a scum tell.

On Kyiv

Excellent case post on Tubby in Post 368

[Starbuck]

it is not a scum tell if there is enough reasons behind it.

It is not pro-town to set up future lynches.

FOS: Manho

[Starbuck]

I was reading through and finishing up, but nice try on that, Zach.

I'm suspicious of both manho (even with his cop claim), but I'm not willing to lynch a claimed cop.

So I'm going with

Vote: EtherealCookie

[Starbuck]

Nice work, Tubby.

Vote: Zach

[Starbuck]

Instead of analyzing the last bit of the read through (because every time I started the power would go out on me), so I gave up trying to analyze and I just read it.

The first bit I read of the game I got a very pro-town read of EC, but as I read through farther, he got very scummy to me, which is why I felt my vote was better placed with him.

With Zach, I was feeling rather null with him. I've had experience with him in past games and his rather lurkiness is not uncommon. He really didn't sway me either way as scum or town. He's had more scummy points against him, but for me, there were others that were scummier than him.

I was actually finishing up reading when Zach posted that. It seemed to me that he was trying to move focus off of him and onto someone else with his post and vote on me.

[Starbuck]

Zach, you do realize you are voting for a claimed cop right?

[Starbuck]

Unvote

Longer days are better for the town.

Paltry brings some interesting ideas to light that I didn't even consider.

I've been suspicious of tubby as well, and the only thing we can hope for to prove him wrong is a counterclaim.

[Starbuck]

I've been dealing with family stuff, as my Great Grandmother passed away last night.

Posting official V/LAs in all my games.

[Starbuck]

I apologize for my absence. My Great Grandmother passed away last Thursday and I have been doing nothing but working on getting myself home for the memorial service. I've been able to keep up with at least two of my games except this one and another. I think it's time to ask for a replacement.

I apologize guys. I've never asked for a replacement before, but I just can't keep up.

[Starbuck]

Hey guys, I've been doing mass catch up today. I'm sorry for my absence. I fly home to Connecticut from Sicily (where I'm stationed for the Navy) on Tuesday.

I've read everything up to this point and I've felt that Zach was scummy. Hopefully we get one and can get a good town win out of this.

Does anyone have any questions for me?

[Starbuck]

Seriously, I will never again play a game with or modded by hohum.

[Starbuck]

So what is the logic that I'm scum? I really don't understand it.

[Starbuck]

Sitting at L-1, I will claim and I am a Vanilla Townie.

It seems really odd to me that Kyiv and Paltry would jump so fast for a quicklynch. Longer days are better for the town.

[Starbuck]

I know it's a WIFOM-y situation, but I've replaced into more than my fair share of Newbie games (check my Wiki if you need to see) and this was something I was just thinking about.

Some mods make it so that if the goon dies and the RB is left alive, the RB has to choose one or the other, whether to RB or to kill. Other mods make it so that the RB can do both. I'd say with the lack of kill last night that scum has to choose. This goes into WIFOM territory, but it was just something I was thinking about since we are on the subject.

[Starbuck]

I really don't care for Kyiv's case because not even based on anything I did. It's based on my predecessor and on Zach. She states questions about Meji's behavior that I can't answer because I'm not Meji. She's a different person than me. I don't know what she was thinking. It's very easy for her to make a case about everything that I can't control.

So I will

Vote: Kyiv

[Starbuck]

I guess so, and I guess the fact that I am semi-V/LA while I am home visiting family doesn't matter to anyone.

I was going to catch up and give my case, but it's just not worth the time and effort now since no one gave me the chance.

[Starbuck]

I know the one big thing that went wrong for me was my V/LA. Not that I could control the fact that my great grandmother passed away and my access was extremely limited for all of this week until today. I was in the middle of making a post in notepad on Kyiv in hopes I could swing the lynch when the hammer came down.

hohum's constant in and out as the mod didn't help.

Also, my main issue with hohum was that when I replaced in, the role PM that I was given was rather confusing. We had a pretty big issue and it was like he didn't even care. The issue was that he wanted Zach to send the kill and me to send the RB, but this was not stated in the Role PM. I replace into quite a number of Newbie games and this was the first one that I ever had any issue. Then once Zach died, I had to choose. In my eyes, we are playing mafia and the mafia kill is part of being scum, so that if the goon dies, the RB should not have to choose but should be able to do both.

[Starbuck]

It makes things overpowered once the goon is dead.

We still had the doctor and the cop still alive.

[Starbuck]

The only night that scum got a kill was N2.

I blocked Tubby/Mr. Finch last night because he said he was going to investigate me.

[Starbuck]

And needless to say when I brought up the situations I had with the game to hohum, it was like he didn't want to help at all. That's why I was saying that there probably needs to be a standard (at least with this setup) that the RBer be able to do both.

[Starbuck]

I can replace as an IC or SE for you.

Do you have more than one game going right now?

Thank you for replacing! If I ever need the favor returned please don't hesitate to ask.

You are a Mafia Roleblocker, along with your partner Zeebee (who is simply a Goon). Your goal is to eliminate the pro-town players so that only your side remains; you win if this happens. During the Day, try to blend in with the rest of the players, and get someone lynched.

You may talk with your partner at Night, and send me a choice via PM of who you would like to kill/roleblock (your team can do both if both of you live; if only you survive, you must choose one action or the other).

Note: You may talk with your partner privately during confirmations to plan strategy, but no night actions will take place until Night One. For your convenience I have set up the following Quick Topic Thread which you may optionally use to communicate at night with your partner


Please confirm in thread: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12332

[Starbuck]

The issue with the PM was that I sent him both the actions when me and Zach were both alive, and he told me that he could only take one action from me. That's what bothered me first, because we were both alive. You can see the QT and see that we agreed upon the actions, but he wanted Zach to PM him as well. It just didn't make sense.

[Starbuck]

I did start fighting for the ability to do both actions, but hohum just linked me to this post of VRK's. That was his only response to me on that.

[Starbuck]

The issue with the PM was that I sent him both the actions when me and Zach were both alive, and he told me that he could only take one action from me. That's what bothered me first, because we were both alive. You can see the QT and see that we agreed upon the actions, but he wanted Zach to PM him as well. It just didn't make sense.

And he posted the night scene before the deadline was up, and I was able to come on and resolve the issue...

That too, and I sent this all to VRK because I was in heavy PM mod with hohum because I wanted VRK in on what was going on.

I feel that he was a horrible mod for this game. He was barely here and then he didn't try to resolve anything, and as a mod for the Newbie Queue I find that to be very unsatisfactory.

[Starbuck]

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 75#1831475

Kill: Ojanen
Block: Manho

You may only submit one action per night so I'm going to use your kill order as your valid night action.

Thanks.

Does Zach have to submit his own?

I figured it'd be easier with one PM since we are both alive.

Yes he does.

Was this made known prior to me replacing in? Because I've never seen a Newbie game done this way, and my Role PM does not state this in anyway:

I can replace as an IC or SE for you.

Do you have more than one game going right now?

Thank you for replacing! If I ever need the favor returned please don't hesitate to ask.

You are a Mafia Roleblocker, along with your partner Zeebee (who is simply a Goon). Your goal is to eliminate the pro-town players so that only your side remains; you win if this happens. During the Day, try to blend in with the rest of the players, and get someone lynched.

You may talk with your partner at Night, and send me a choice via PM of who you would like to kill/roleblock (your team can do both if both of you live; if only you survive, you must choose one action or the other).

Note: You may talk with your partner privately during confirmations to plan strategy, but no night actions will take place until Night One. For your convenience I have set up the following Quick Topic Thread which you may optionally use to communicate at night with your partner


Please confirm in thread: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12332

Your role PM explicitly states that you may not submit two night actions, though it is worded in such a way that can be confusing. I'll make sure to reword the Role PM in the future.

Your

team

may do both if you live. (the bolded part implies that you must submit night actions as a team)

If only you survive you may do one or the other. (this implies that you only have one night action per night).

I've never seen a Newbie game done this way

It varies from mod to mod and game to game. We had a discussion about this in Newbie 818 after it ended and I wasn't swayed by the arguments.

My role PM does not state that I MAY NOT/CAN NOT submit both actions. It says the following:

"You may talk with your partner at Night, and send me a choice via PM of who you would like to kill/roleblock (your team can do both if both of you live; if only you survive, you must choose one action or the other). "

The team can do both. It does say "team", as you said, which implies a two person decision, which was made via the Quicktopic that you made and that you can check for validity. It DOES NOT state who has to submit the actions and that each person needs to submit a separate action. It's not right if Zach does not get back in time for deadline and our kill doesn't go through because the PM does NOT explicitly state that I can't submit both actions.

Also, having been re-reading. How can you make it so I have to choose either action if Zach dies? Roleblocking is a function of the Roleblocker; night kills are a function of the scum team as a whole. There should be no reason why I have to choose between the two in a Newbie game.

I'm going to be bringing both of these issues up to VRK. All of this is not reflecting the F-11 setup as written.

[Starbuck]

The above is the full conversation that hohum and I had via PM.

[Starbuck]

It's strange, because I played 2 or 3 other newbie games modded by hohum without incident.

It should probably be noted that all those games also lacked role blockers though.

This was my first moderated by hohum and is definitely my last.

[Starbuck]

I don't feel like I was bashing, other than saying that I won't play a game that he moderates. There were serious issues with this game and things like this need to be prevented from happening in the future. The point of mafia is to have fun, and this game was not fun for me because of these issues.

[Starbuck]

And Zach, don't worry, I love to hate you in every game we play! =)

[Starbuck]

Zach, if you do make that MD thread, please send me a link to it?


Thanks!

Vel

Me too.

Zach, I think you'd be better at phrasing it all at first then I will.

[Starbuck]

To be clear, I'm not bashing Hohum, but rather just expressing my anger/frustration at the way this game unfolded. I don't have any problem with him personally.

This.

[Starbuck]

<3 Paltry

[Starbuck]

@VRK - My main issue with what happened this game was that it wasn't the first time that it happened, and the fact that this exact situation has happened more than once shows to me that it's something that needs to be fixed.

[Starbuck]

And let it be known, that the deadline rule doesn't bother me.

[Starbuck]

There were many factors in the scum teams loss. For once, the number of replacements. For two, I know my absence due to personal things did not help at all. We aren't saying that we aren't at fault for the loss. What we are saying, or at least myself, is that there is a significant issue with this setup and since this is not the first time that it happened. hohum linked me to the last time it happened in August in 818.

This is the Newbie Queue and everything should standardized one way or another. This choice the mods have to make this role unable to do a normal scum function makes for an uneven game if they lose their goon.

[Starbuck]

There were many factors in the scum teams loss. For one, the number of replacements. For two, I know my absence due to personal things did not help at all. We aren't saying that we aren't at fault for the loss. What we are saying, or at least myself, is that there is a significant issue with this setup and since this is not the first time that it happened (hohum linked me to the last time it happened in August in 818) that it definitely needs to be fixed. It's a factor that can easily make a game unenjoyable. It seems that hohum has been the only mod to use this choice and despite issues in the past continues to do so.

This is the Newbie Queue and everything should standardized one way or another. This choice the mods have to make this role unable to do a normal scum function makes for an uneven game if they lose their goon.

[Starbuck]

Sorry, I posted too early with my other one and forgot I couldn't edit.