Open 177 (Monks and Masons) - Game Over.

[ODDin]

The Very Late Vote count

ElectricBadger - Scien
Hewitt - ElectricBadger
ODDin - Hewitt, Farside22, Benmage

Not Voting: Nikanor, Maemuki, ODDin, XofElf.

Lots of love
Haylxxx

Your statements context was read as a point against farside. Yet it was shown to you she did so through discussion and being asked a question. You dont see the provocation there?

There's a difference between saying something which is relevant to the discussion and defending against an attack. farside wasn't attacked and wasn't accuse of being scummy. What I said was that I felt she used the question to assert her towniness - which wasn't necessary, seeing that she wasn't being attacked. That is, there are many ways to word the same thing, and I didn't really like the way she worded her answer, as I felt it had a certain scummy subtext. It was mostly "FYI everybody, farside may have an ulterior motive in this post", not "I am certain she has an ulterior motive, this is very scummy".
That was my reasoning back then and that is why I didn't consider this a point against Scien.

Your "RL" duties aren't keeping you from other spots on the site.

Well, if you already brought this up, yes, I am more active in another game, for two reasons:
1) It has a deadline tomorrow.
2) I don't have to catch up on about 9 pages to know what's going on there, because when this game grew like a mutated monster, that other game was getting very few new posts.

Also, if you really bother to check, you'll see that I said I'm going to be less active in that other game as well.

[ODDin]

Also, Benmage, any points against me that I've missed, or are these the only two?

[Benmage]

Your statements context was read as a point against farside. Yet it was shown to you she did so through discussion and being asked a question. You dont see the provocation there?

There's a difference between saying something which is relevant to the discussion and defending against an attack. farside wasn't attacked and wasn't accuse of being scummy. What I said was that I felt she used the question to assert her towniness - which wasn't necessary, seeing that she wasn't being attacked. That is, there are many ways to word the same thing, and I didn't really like the way she worded her answer, as I felt it had a certain scummy subtext. It was mostly "FYI everybody, farside may have an ulterior motive in this post", not "I am certain she has an ulterior motive, this is very scummy".
That was my reasoning back then and that is why I didn't consider this a point against Scien.

Scien's context seems under no greater scrutiny than the one Farside was in...perhaps you should relook.

Your "RL" duties aren't keeping you from other spots on the site.

Well, if you already brought this up, yes, I am more active in another game, for two reasons:
1) It has a deadline tomorrow.
2) I don't have to catch up on about 9 pages to know what's going on there, because when this game grew like a mutated monster, that other game was getting very few new posts.

Also, if you really bother to check, you'll see that I said I'm going to be less active in that other game as well.

Yeah i saw you make a similar statement...and then continue to play actively.

How long did it take you to answer the questions I had on you?? You were gone for a few days....you said you already read them...but today as votes return to you, you come in and start posting. What a total bunch of crap you are trying to pass by us.

Again, bring up some points on someone else, and maybe you wont see the noose.

[hewitt]

This game did not grow like a mutated monster half the players aren't even posting much.

[ODDin]

Scien's context seems under no greater scrutiny than the one Farside was in...perhaps you should relook.

Erm, what? Scien was under heavy accusation from farside. That was the whole beginning of D1. farside wasn't really being accused by anyone at that point.

Yeah i saw you make a similar statement...and then continue to play actively.

I really don't want to go into great detail about an ongoing game, it's poor tone. Again, I'm mostly active there because its deadline is much closer and I don't need to catch up on things I missed.

How long did it take you to answer the questions I had on you?? You were gone for a few days....you said you already read them...but today as votes return to you, you come in and start posting. What a total bunch of crap you are trying to pass by us.

The two points I've answered I saw with only a very brief skim. I wanted to delay answering them until I read the whole post that contained them, to see it in better light. Now, to try to move this along a bit, I attempted answering them based only on a very light skim.


Seeing the great demand for activity NOW, I'll do my best to read some things already today.

[ODDin]

hewitt: The Benmage walls and the discussion between farside and Scien gave birth to several pages of posts pretty damn quickly.

[Benmage]

Scien's context seems under no greater scrutiny than the one Farside was in...perhaps you should relook.

Erm, what? Scien was under heavy accusation from farside. That was the whole beginning of D1. farside wasn't really being accused by anyone at that point.

Farside mentions it through her back n forth with scien. Scien does so in the back n forth with farside....i see no greater provocation.

[ODDin]

The back n forth between farside and Scien was with farside on the offence and Scien on the defence. She was heavily attacking him, he was mostly busy defending. I think he did mildly accuse her back at some point in there, though I don't exactly remember right now. Still, the difference is pretty obvious. The distinction between attacker and defender is important here.

[hewitt]

ODDin who do you think is scum and why?

[Scien]

The only 2 people you seem to have a point on was me and scien.

I assume his point on me was his comment about meta? Out of morbid curiosity what do you claim his point on you was. Or are you trying to say the fact that he is commenting on you vs me as a pair has a single point?

Didn't see much in the intermediate that wasn't hit already.

Question to ODDin. You're claimed grief with townie claim is that you didn't like people doing it unsolicited by necessity no? I would say that neither Farside or I fell into necessity. As I have said already (even though some try and say I never did), claiming Farside was claiming, was a stretch. A fairly long stretch. You could have been right. But there was no way for us to know in thread.

However, I EXPLICITLY said that I was townie. There was no vagueness, there was no stretch to say I did so. And for the most part the couple of places that I did say I was townie was completely unsolicited.

But neither of those places brought a comment from you. You don't think that is odd?

[ODDin]

hewitt: right now (that is, based on info from page 20 and earlier alone), you.
I've already said why I think you're scum earlier today. I think your reaction towards EB is blown out of proportion. I don't like the way you said how oh-so-terribly-wrong the wagon on RBT was - but you only remembered saying so today, when it's too late. I don't buy that you didn't realise she was in danger of being lynched. When you focused on the game and presented your huge case on fuzzy RBT was already in plenty danger of being lynched, and you should have noticed that on the reread.

I have some gut reactions towards EB, and I remember he didn't respond to some of the things you've brought up against him. But I haven't really got a case right now.
There are also a couple of things I don't like about Benmage. The brief skimming of his walls gave me a feeling that he assumes I'm scum and then goes on to explain how what I'm doing is scummy, and also I got the impression he knows you're town (which, in this setup, actually feels more like he's your scumpartner). On the other hand, he's very active and he's pushing the game forward, while I would expect scum to lurk a bit more and attempt to just slip under the radar, so that speaks in his favour.

Scien: I said myself that what I said on farside was a stretch. I know.
To answer the rest, let me explain how I view some things. When you are attacked, you defend. What does defence mean? It means trying to convince people the attacker is wrong. Since the attacker is saying you're scummy, then convincing people he's wrong means convincing people you're not scummy. That is, convincing people you're townie. That is, the moment you start defending yourself, you automatically imply that you are town. That's the logical basis behind defence, claiming town. So the moment you go on the defensive, you automatically claim town. You might as well explicitly say it, it doesn't change a thing.
My problem is with people who try to convince others they're town even when they weren't attacked.
In the exchange between farside and yourself, you were attacked, farside wasn't. That is why it didn't bother me at all that you said you were town.

[Benmage]

hewitt: right now (that is, based on info from page 20 and earlier alone), you.
I've already said why I think you're scum earlier today. I think your reaction towards EB is blown out of proportion. I don't like the way you said how oh-so-terribly-wrong the wagon on RBT was - but you only remembered saying so today, when it's too late. I don't buy that you didn't realise she was in danger of being lynched. When you focused on the game and presented your huge case on fuzzy RBT was already in plenty danger of being lynched, and you should have noticed that on the reread.

So why didn't you vote him? Nothings changed on this matter...you going to wait and try a speedy deadline lynch?

[Benmage]

I have some gut reactions towards EB, and I remember he didn't respond to some of the things you've brought up against him. But I haven't really got a case right now.
There are also a couple of things I don't like about Benmage. The brief skimming of his walls gave me a feeling that he assumes I'm scum and then goes on to explain how what I'm doing is scummy, and also I got the impression he knows you're town (which, in this setup, actually feels more like he's your scumpartner). On the other hand, he's very active and he's pushing the game forward, while I would expect scum to lurk a bit more and attempt to just slip under the radar, so that speaks in his favour.

Your gonna need to say more than just this...yes as i caught up i gave several gut reads at the moment...when my read through started winding down I was able to get more concrete things together. Your point?

[ODDin]

So why didn't you vote him? Nothings changed on this matter...you going to wait and try a speedy deadline lynch?

I didn't vote for him earlier because it was the start of the game and I was waiting to hear more from him before deciding to vote. I didn't vote later because I don't enjoy voting without having read the entire game.

Your gonna need to say more than just this...yes as i caught up i gave several gut reads at the moment...when my read through started winding down I was able to get more concrete things together. Your point?

I wasn't trying to make a point. I've said the opinions I had on people at the moment, as hewitt requested. Technically he requested scum, but I included you because I'm not really sure, I have strong feelings both ways.


Also, is the entire reason farside, benmage and hewiit are voting me summarised in post 744? Seriously?

[hewitt]

hewitt: right now (that is, based on info from page 20 and earlier alone), you.
I've already said why I think you're scum earlier today. I think your reaction towards EB is blown out of proportion. I don't like the way you said how oh-so-terribly-wrong the wagon on RBT was - but you only remembered saying so today, when it's too late. I don't buy that you didn't realise she was in danger of being lynched. When you focused on the game and presented your huge case on fuzzy RBT was already in plenty danger of being lynched, and you should have noticed that on the reread.

This is pretty much stuff I can't defend myself from so I guess I'm okay with that.

[ElectricBadger]

Re-reading ODDin in iso.

Also intrigued by the sudden exodus of votes from me after a claim I didn't expect much from; my guess is mafia trying to find werewolves rather than focusing on an already-weak town.

[Benmage]

Re-reading ODDin in iso.

Also intrigued by the sudden exodus of votes from me after a claim I didn't expect much from; my guess is mafia trying to find werewolves rather than focusing on an already-weak town.

I'm not sure. I dont like it. If you and Xo are town, mafia could confirm this knowing the 2 monks are town, and yes swing their votes to find a werewolf.

Who was all waiting for you to claim...Nik?...who lead the vote switching? Far/hew?...i'm literally walkin out the door and not bothering to check. Yes i switched mine too...and could flip it back n forth, i want either of you dead and will vote the leading wagon.

[ODDin]

Also, starting reread from page 20! Whee! Will comment on stuff as I go. I already commented on some of these things, but I'll go ahead and do so again, just to refresh everybody's memory.

No it wasn't Scien I'm not fucking retarded and I know when a case is crap. Especially when you're looking at who started it I mean come on, that's ridiculous.

So, you could obviously see the case was a crappy one by looking at the one who STARTED it. However, you didn't see it D1. Either it's obvious, and then you should've seen it easily D1 and what you're saying is crap, or it's not so obvious, and then what you're saying is crap anyway.

However,

What are you trying to prove with the "not a really great track record" ElectricBadger? Because nobody really ever says that unless they're scum looking to discredit a player so nobody will listen to them.

That is indeed a good point against EB.

The rest of post 478 is more crap.


Also, on Maemuki asking Ben for opinions on current events:

Bull. Rushed opinions? Whats the point...so i can misinterpret/misread an argument waste my time and others reexplaining it...i'll get to it in due time, and be all caught up and proper soon enough.
[And then:] everything would also be out of context, i wouldnt even know where to look for the current debate...no its best to go from the beginning.

That's exactly what I've been saying right now.

Later, in Ben's posts, he seems to know for claim for certain that I am scum. Interestingly enough - BEFORE he said anything that seems to be the reason for his vote on me right now. Specifically, post 506.
Also, he (ben) talked a lot about what poor a player Zazier is. He's bashed him like there's no tomorrow in his posts - certainly more than he accused me, at least until then. However, he didn't say Zazier is scum at all, while me he's calling scum almost from the get go. Why is that?


Also, notice: initially benmage practically doesn't accuse hewitt at all. At some places he says "he doesn't like his playstyle", but doesn't really go as far as to say it's scummy. In a different place he says hewitt is town, without "if" or "maybe" or anything (when he speaks about Nik in a similar situation, he does insert a "maybe").
Then I call him out on it. The next post after I call him out (post 546) - most of the post is accusing hewitt.
This seriously strengthens my opinion that ben and hewitt are scumbuddies.


The argument between Scien and farside seems kinda meh to me. Lots of wifom and refusal to understand things. farside has a point, Scien's flip on RBT was a bit too sudden and a bit too convenient there. But it's not a very strong point, and Scien was pretty consistent with what he said - be it fabricated or not.
farside seems to say changing opinion = backtracking.

If indeed you guys are going to lynch me over this crap (and it is crap, you don't have points as much as you have possible motives with no backing), I urge you to take a good look around you. Oddin is not cleared by my flip. Farside isn't either. It is common from what I have seen to get into a 'Well she pushed that townie so hard... she wouldn't do that as scum'. You make sure you really believe that statement if you are going to let her slide for this.

AtE? Scien was nowhere near being lynched over this.


Later, EB is willing to give up on D2... bad. If you don't like the discussions that are happening, you should start new ones.


This is up to and including page 25.

[SaintKerrigan]

Hey, guys. I'm the replacement for xofelf. Haylen should be confirming this shortly.

I've been following this game lightly for a while, but now that I'm actually in it, I'm going to commit to a more in-depth read. In the meantime, if anyone has questions, feel free to ask me.

[Haylen]

SaintKerrigan replaces xofelf, affective immediately.

[ElectricBadger]

However,

What are you trying to prove with the "not a really great track record" ElectricBadger? Because nobody really ever says that unless they're scum looking to discredit a player so nobody will listen to them.

That is indeed a good point against EB.

Hew took my post out of context: I was not accusing him just because he'd suspected townies, but because he was attacking Scien for it despite having done it himself. Hew hypocritically pushed voting for townies as a case and then tried to pass off my pointing out his double standard as scummy.

Later, EB is willing to give up on D2... bad. If you don't like the discussions that are happening, you should start new ones.

Of the players here you have the least room to talk. Per your explanation, you stopped posting because of the spam as well. Posting a good case to have it lost in rambling no one wants to read isn't much help to town.

[farside22]

The only 2 people you seem to have a point on was me and scien.

I assume his point on me was his comment about meta? Out of morbid curiosity what do you claim his point on you was. Or are you trying to say the fact that he is commenting on you vs me as a pair has a single point?

I was commenting on nik's scum list in which he has you as town for reason's and me for scum with reason's but little to no information about anyone else.
Most of his scum list after is just a process of elimination.

[ODDin]

Of the players here you have the least room to talk. Per your explanation, you stopped posting because of the spam as well. Posting a good case to have it lost in rambling no one wants to read isn't much help to town.

I didn't stop posting because of spam, it's just that the number of posts made it impossible for me to keep normally.
I just said I needed more time. You said you were completely caught up, but simply didn't want to do anything. There's a difference.

[farside22]

Your "RL" duties aren't keeping you from other spots on the site.

Well, if you already brought this up, yes, I am more active in another game, for two reasons:
1) It has a deadline tomorrow.
2) I don't have to catch up on about 9 pages to know what's going on there, because when this game grew like a mutated monster, that other game was getting very few new posts.

Also, if you really bother to check, you'll see that I said I'm going to be less active in that other game as well.

And there is a deadline in this game which is Sunday. You keep saying you will have to post less but knowing how this game is it should have been on your watch list with note put into your computer to go over when you have a chance to sit down and read.
Also before you took your "rest" period ben was making cases with walls of text.

[ODDin]

I guess in abstract though either:
A) Both of us are on the same anti-town team, and therefore are ignoring each other. This is not the case, but is what you suspect at the moment it seems.
B) He is town, and for some reason is confident I am town. This shouldn't be the case because repetitively in this game he said that he was unsure of my alignment.
C) He is scum and thinks that eventually I will get nailed by town, or is afraid to push my way thinking I might flip town (he wouldn't know if I was the other anti-town team or not). This could be the case. Although I think if I was in those scum shoes I would have pushed harder on me throughout the game, since I seemed to be the easier target between Farside and me.
D) He is scum and is confident that I am town. It would probably benefit him at this stage to start trying to hit the other anti-town team, in order to promote his team's win. As you guys said, at this point unless the town starts getting really lucky, we might get overwhelmed soon if the next round of lynch/NKs all land on pro-town roles.

Well, I think I've answered this already, but still:
E) I'm town, and I haven't been ignoring your posts - you just misunderstand why and when I think claiming town is scummy and when it isn't. Almost all of your posts read like one big null-tell to me.
I think it's partly because I feel that in your shoes, if I were accused for the things you've been accused for, I'd say more or less what you said, be I scum or town. I try to think of you as town, I try to think of you as scum, both scenarios make about the same sense to me.

The exchange about RBT has made me lean slightly towards negative in regards to you, but it's still pretty close to nothing.

To clarify: there were 2 issues about me. One between farside and myself, the othe between farside and scien.
The farside/scien thing is wrong - it heavily depends on who is attacking and who is defending.
The farside/me thign has a merit, I can agree to that. It's just that I never really considered this such a damning thing for farside to begin with. It was general musing on my part, which snowballed (not without my help) into something more because I wanted to use it for pressuring. farside was making a big deal out of it and I went along to see where it went.


Also, do you want me to mention another double standard? The one where farside was accusing Scien for deciding NOT to push a weak case, but then me pushing a weak case is horrible? She even admitted it's legitimate to see it that way.
That was the whole point of my case. Of course it was WIFOM. I said myself it was WIFOM. Many many times. I was using it to gain information.
farside ignoring this and still pushing the case against me is scummy.

That's up to the middle of page 27. I'll read up on the rest tomorrow. Enough mafia instead of studying for my exam. (I'm so going to fail tomorrow... )