Open 177 (Monks and Masons) - Game Over.

[farside22]

The Things that make you go hmm... Vote count

ElectricBadger - Scien
Hewitt - ElectricBadger, ODDin
ODDin - Hewitt
SaintKerrigan - Benmage, Farside22
Benmage - SaintKerrigan

Not Voting: Nikanor, Maemuki, ODDin, SaintKerrigan.

Lots of love
Haylxxx

EB: in your chats with your partner did either of you talk to one another? If so what was your impression on your monk partner that makes you feel they are town?

[Scien]

The problem I have is the Ben is clearly baiting him to see if he is scum. I'm not going to get into the samantics of this right now but it frankly can be read either SK is scum or he is calling Ben scum trying to draw out a member of the opposing scum team.
I dont' see how Ben doing what he did is the later.

Clearly to us. What about someone who isn't caught up and doesn't know the game state?

But I can easilly see someone in SK's shoes, who is not fully caught up, and current in game state, see the claim request as coming from a scum trying to out what SK thought to be a hidden Monk team. There are game states where it would make sense for Benmage as scum to out himself as scum to out a monk team in order to possibly hit a opposing scum. We have the privilege of being informed enough to know that this is almost impossible since the team is already outed. However SK didn't/doesn't know that for sure.

Basically a person (scum or townie monk) in those shoes, I can see hesitating, and considering the person pressuring for the claim as scum, trying to out the monk team. IMO the hesitation is a null tell, as well as the apparent jump for SK to think that Benmage is scum.

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It's not necessarily an 'either/or' between them either. Could be an 'and' or 'neither'.

Benmage, knowing the team was already outed, could know that he is relatively safe from the town crying fowl for role fishing. He could be amping the pressure so his scum team could be sure that both Monks are dead by tomorrow morning...

or

Benmage could have thought this was a full proof trap. He seems to have thought that way during his recent pressure posts.

---

SK has the reaction I would expect to give in her shoes... but that doesn't mean she isn't scum. Scum would have had the same confusion, hesitation, and immediate suspicion of Benmage as a townie would have in the same situation. We don't know which she is yet.

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It will be interesting to see SK's reactions when she is more fully caught up.

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BTW I think that Benmage was a bit manipulative in his pressure and might have been actively skewing possibilities as well as words. Benmage, why did you seem to ignore possibilities? Why are you so sure that your trap has worked?

[Nikanor]

I agree with Scien and EB that SK's hesitation is a nulltell.
Benmage, you didn't even give SK time to think about your motivation, so I don't see how you're able to say that it would have been obvious to SK that he should confirm the claim.
Anyway, I really don't see a pro-town motivation behind ODDin calling SK scummy while trying to ignore the scumminess because Benmage's tactic was 'dishonourable.' Seems like mafia searching for wolves to me. This makes even more sense with ODDin's recent attempts to lynch the mason who he thinks may be a wolf.

Vote: ODDin.

[ElectricBadger]

EB: in your chats with your partner did either of you talk to one another? If so what was your impression on your monk partner that makes you feel they are town?

I've stated before I don't have town reads on anyone. However, I see no evidence as of yet that the spot is scum, and as a monk I believe there's less chance, statistically, than most other players. That may change either way with an active player in the role, so I can base a read on more than odds.

[ODDin]

Scien said that even if hewitt is scummy, we shouldn't lynch him. I want to know other people's stance on this. I myself am still not entirely sure it's the correct course of action - the mafia wants the town to get rid of the wolves as much as the town wants the mafia to do the same.

[Scien]

Vote count when you have a second please.

I would add to Nik's concerns that ODDin has been jumping to the same hasty conclusions during this that Benmage seemed to be:

That being said, he (it's he, not she) did made a rather weird choice by not claiming.

Also, what has been seen cannot be unseen. Kerrigan, the "other scum team" does pretty much constitute a claim of being scum.

I'm willing to vote him, especially because he had a case on him before he started acting opportunistic in this recent turn of events.

Vote:ODDin

Hewitt - ElectricBadger, ODDin
Oddin - Hewitt, Nikanor, Scien
SaintKerrigan - Benmage
Benmage - SK, Farside22

Not Voting: Maemuki

[farside22]

EB: in your chats with your partner did either of you talk to one another? If so what was your impression on your monk partner that makes you feel they are town?

I've stated before I don't have town reads on anyone. However, I see no evidence as of yet that the spot is scum, and as a monk I believe there's less chance, statistically, than most other players. That may change either way with an active player in the role, so I can base a read on more than odds.

I think if you know there is a possible shot that your monk partner may be scum should not change how you play this game.
With that said I can't believe I'm saying this but I agree with scien's logic in regards to SK.

unvote
vote: Oddin

[farside22]

SCIEN'S VERY UNOFFICIAL VOTE COUNT wrote:

Hewitt - ElectricBadger, ODDin
Oddin - Hewitt, Nikanor, Scien
SaintKerrigan - Benmage
Benmage - SK, Farside22

Not Voting: Maemuki

I was voting for SK not Benmage.

[ODDin]

Also, looking back at the whole issue with Ben, I think I didn't see Kerrigan in the right perspective because I was annoyed at Ben so much.
The "scum claim" isn't as clear a scum claim as it seemed at the moment, though it still is a little.
Kerrigan's not claiming can go both ways. Seeing we weren't close to the deadline and Kerrigan wasn't in risk of being lynched.
Kerrigan's accusations of Benmage are pretty scummy though. It looks like OMGUS, and the accusations don't hold water. Ben's actions in regards to Kerrigan don't suggest of anything specifically scummy, per se. Even though I don't like them, there's nothing to indicate it was scum looking for another scum instead of town trying to catch scum.

Also, where was I opportunistic?

[Scien]

I myself am still not entirely sure it's the correct course of action - the mafia wants the town to get rid of the wolves as much as the town wants the mafia to do the same.

That's a good point. I really didn't talk much about it, and when I brought it up it was more of an 'off the cuff' feeling post than something I logically thought out.

It's probably too early to assume that either anti-town team would go ahead and start sniping for scum. However eventually they will. When they do, they will likely hit M/Ms first... due to the hint of possibility that there is a scum within that 'subset'.

At least that was the basis of my ill formed thought.

[Maemuki]

*emerges from a pile of homework, tests and essays*

*looks at thread's pages*

What. The. Hell.

*sigh* There goes my weekend.

[Benmage]

I wanted to see if he claimed the same thing without knowing what the first claim was you truly are terrible.

What makes you think that a townie in that situation wouldn't claim vanilla townie?

Town should never lie. If she was a Monk he'd of claimed so.

It would've taken 10 seconds to realize i wasn't lying. If i forced an uncalled for claim I would've been jumped all over faster than anything. Thus a claim for a scum would be perfect. You ruined it. Luckily she still f'd up regardless, and you outted yourself.

What makes you think they might not sacrifice a player to out the other M/M team and possibly drag out a member of the other scum team?

Overall this was an ill thought out 'trick' I think.

Lol...why would a scum sacrifice themself for a mason. And out their partner most masons in every game i have ever seen end up claiming their partner real quick. This is a terrible counter.

Look again. Its a pretty simply trick to avoid. SK messed up.

Er... what? In that situation, why trying to figure out what is going on a bad idea? You would be stuck with no information, no way to know if it was a scum ploy or not, and immense pressure from the 'trick' to answer instantly. I think I might be hesitant as well.

Are you an idiot? A scum ploy?? Really, if only the scum were so bad....if scum did some false ploy like this they'd be hung up by the rest of the town instantly...geeeze scien...wow..

Your role was known. No way was i lying. If you thought i was and you claimed, everyone would've murdered me. An infant could deduce this. You got flustered, and scarred cause you're scum.

Ignores the possibility of a scum willingly sacrificing themselves to draw out the team. Kerrigan had no way to know at the time if the scum were in a position where they would try that. Please tell me you thought about the possibilities before you pulled this off.

ITS D2. Hopefully she read page one and the rules...holy shit a 1-1 trade is ideal! And it wouldnt even be a 1-1 trade...it would be a scum for a claim..and she wouldnt have to out her partner...

SK should've known i wasnt lying and claimed (correctly)....it was all rather simple. She didnt, messed up, cause shes scum.

Way to keep pushing this point like its a fact. There are other possibilities.

Nothing you've thought of.

f they didnt claim and I demanded this, i would've been murdered by everyone else...it was all very obvious.

And that could have been your intention. This possibility is obvious.

To be the worst scum player ever? Yeah that could've been my ploy. In which case she'd have more reason to jump at it. How are you really this blind scien? The rollercoaster of up and down posts you've made this game (soundly speaking, not scummy) Is in a screeching freefall.

Post 847 is probably one of the worst I’ve seen in this game.

That said, and while I think ben is indeed scum, the vote appears pure omgus unless SK has other reasons to support it. Personally I'm more inclined to think ben was fabricating a distraction to save scumbuddy Hew. I can't believe he actually thought that trap was a great plan.

I really dont get certain people's thought process...Noone is even following your hew/me team..but if they were you think this SK thing erases everyones mind...you think i forgot about you and ODDin...geeeeze

Meh...worst trap ever, imo. In SK's place I would have done the same thing: refused to claim - the urgency came across as an obvious ploy to make him do something without complete information. The idea that he would mistakenly claim the wrong role is absurd (when would someone claim scum?)

Yes its a bad trap...Thats the point. Only works on bad scum. If you, as town, ever misclaim than you are terrible at this game.

The trap is to make him answer without having all the answers thus the zero ability to support a possible lie.

The problem I have is the Ben is clearly baiting him to see if he is scum. I'm not going to get into the samantics of this right now but it frankly can be read either SK is scum or he is calling Ben scum trying to draw out a member of the opposing scum team.
I dont' see how Ben doing what he did is the later.

Clearly to us. What about someone who isn't caught up and doesn't know the game state?

But I can easilly see someone in SK's shoes, who is not fully caught up, and current in game state, see the claim request as coming from a scum trying to out what SK thought to be a hidden Monk team. There are game states where it would make sense for Benmage as scum to out himself as scum to out a monk team in order to possibly hit a opposing scum. We have the privilege of being informed enough to know that this is almost impossible since the team is already outed. However SK didn't/doesn't know that for sure.

What scum team wants to go 1-1? Regardless what town (if she is town) doesn't jump all over and easy scum. Your logic is dreadful.

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BTW I think that Benmage was a bit manipulative in his pressure and might have been actively skewing possibilities as well as words. Benmage, why did you seem to ignore possibilities? Why are you so sure that your trap has worked?

I'm not skewing possibilities, i'm going with the most logical one. Like I said the trap is easy to see through an answer correctly even as scum. Only bad scum will fall for it. Like SK.

Why did you decide to breakdown what i did here, and come to rescue SK? Are you her scum buddy?

I agree with Scien and EB that SK's hesitation is a nulltell.
Benmage, you didn't even give SK time to think about your motivation, so I don't see how you're able to say that it would have been obvious to SK that he should confirm the claim.

Pretty sure the motivation and possible outcomes where are mostly favorable for SK could've been deduced in a minute tops.

[ODDin]

Scien, it felt like you were giving hewitt a free pass, however. Let's ignore the fact there are two teams for a second. How scummy do you find hewitt?

[Nikanor]

The "scum claim" isn't as clear a scum claim as it seemed at the moment, though it still is a little.

But you admit that you viewed it as a clear scum claim at the time, and yet didn't vote him. That is scummy.

[Scien]

I was voting for SK not Benmage.

Er... crap. I knew you were... I just screwed that up.

I'm not going to repost and just wait for a real one, since I am full of fail.

[Benmage]

The "scum claim" isn't as clear a scum claim as it seemed at the moment, though it still is a little.

But you admit that you viewed it as a clear scum claim at the time, and yet didn't vote him. That is scummy.

Si.

[Scien]

Town should never lie. If she was a Monk he'd of claimed so.

Remind me to rolefish you some time when I am scum and you are town. If you hold to that when we are talking about unrevealed roles.

Lol...why would a scum sacrifice themself for a mason. And out their partner most masons in every game i have ever seen end up claiming their partner real quick. This is a terrible counter.

Look again. Its a pretty simply trick to avoid. SK messed up.

I could easily see a situation where it would be beneficial for the chance to out an opposing scum team's member. Like you said... if you get them to out, then the monk partner is outed too. Gives the scum more info about who to hit. They might sacrifice for that info. It's not as terrible as you claim it. And someone in SK's shoes would have to wade through the possibility anyway, meaning they wouldn't necessarily trust you right away.

Are you an idiot? A scum ploy?? Really, if only the scum were so bad....if scum did some false ploy like this they'd be hung up by the rest of the town instantly...geeeze scien...wow..

YARLY... in some cases it would be benefitial for the scum to do so. Not saying that is the case here, but SK couldn't know that if she was behind on the game. Of course she is going to be careful trying to decide what you are pushing...

ITS D2. Hopefully she read page one and the rules...holy shit a 1-1 trade is ideal! And it wouldnt even be a 1-1 trade...it would be a scum for a claim..and she wouldnt have to out her partner...

You have no idea how caught up she is. You never asked, and she didn't say. She had no idea it would be a 1 for 1.

You keep pushing saying I think that is what is going on here. That is not the case. I am merely saying it is a possibility and SK, as someone catching up in the game, wouldn't be able to distinguish if it was likely or not for the scum to try and pull off a trade.

Nothing you've thought of.

Uh huh.

To be the worst scum player ever? Yeah that could've been my ploy.

From our perspective. Not from the person who isn't caught up. They have no idea if it wouldn't be a good move or not.

Post 847 is probably one of the worst I’ve seen in this game.

Well since you are getting personal... your logic about how SK should have acted in this case is about the biggest pile of crap I have ever seen anyone spew. And I have played with a few bad people.

Like I said the trap is easy to see through an answer correctly even as scum. Only bad scum will fall for it. Like SK.

Why did you decide to breakdown what i did here, and come to rescue SK? Are you her scum buddy?

Nope... try again. You didn't give them the benefit of understanding the game state. You don't understand the game state, you don't understand what you were trying to pull.

Why did I decide to question a case trap that was ill thought out and jumped to conclusions while manipulating words and positions? I assume that was rhetorical.

[Benmage]

Lol...why would a scum sacrifice themself for a mason. And out their partner most masons in every game i have ever seen end up claiming their partner real quick. This is a terrible counter.

Look again. Its a pretty simply trick to avoid. SK messed up.

I could easily see a situation where it would be beneficial for the chance to out an opposing scum team's member. Like you said... if you get them to out, then the monk partner is outed too. Gives the scum more info about who to hit. They might sacrifice for that info. It's not as terrible as you claim it.

This is as terrible logic as I am claiming it to be. Her claim firstly doesn't out her partner, only herself. Link Me one game anywhere on this site where a scum sacrificed themselves to know a townie role (preferably mason).

What scum thinks...oh its 2-2...i'll sacrifice myself on the offchance i "find" one of those other two...instead of just layin low and maybe hitting them regardless. This is crap.

[Benmage]

Are you an idiot? A scum ploy?? Really, if only the scum were so bad....if scum did some false ploy like this they'd be hung up by the rest of the town instantly...geeeze scien...wow..

YARLY... in some cases it would be benefitial for the scum to do so. Not saying that is the case here, but SK couldn't know that if she was behind on the game. Of course she is going to be careful trying to decide what you are pushing...

Breakdown a possible scenario for me where scum would do this and it would be beneficial for them. I mean you "easily" see it..so please share.

[Scien]

This is crap.

Catching up when you have a role, and seeing someone tell you to claim? I think expecting them to trust the person pressuring the claim is crap no matter their alignment.

Your trap is not as clear cut as your crappy logic is claiming it to be.

[Benmage]

ITS D2. Hopefully she read page one and the rules...holy shit a 1-1 trade is ideal! And it wouldnt even be a 1-1 trade...it would be a scum for a claim..and she wouldnt have to out her partner...

You have no idea how caught up she is. You never asked, and she didn't say. She had no idea it would be a 1 for 1.

You keep pushing saying I think that is what is going on here. That is not the case. I am merely saying it is a possibility and SK, as someone catching up in the game, wouldn't be able to distinguish if it was likely or not for the scum to try and pull off a trade.

'No idea it would be a 1-1'?? What was her thought process than? Or possible beliefs?

'No idea how caught up'....geeeze, if she didnt read page one atleast..the rules and all etc than wow...If she did, she'd know a "claim" ...thats all it is..a claim for a scum would be amazing.

[Benmage]

This is crap.

Catching up when you have a role, and seeing someone tell you to claim? I think expecting them to trust the person pressuring the claim is crap no matter their alignment.

Your trap is not as clear cut as your crappy logic is claiming it to be.

What alternatives would have occurred if i was forcing her to claim and was lying and it was known to all...what would have been the net in thread steps??

[Scien]

No idea it would be 1 for 1 was a bad sentence. Should have said wouldn't have known if 1 for 1 would be a good idea or not.

[Benmage]

No idea it would be 1 for 1 was a bad sentence. Should have said wouldn't have known if 1 for 1 would be a good idea or not.

It was a townie claim for 1 scum....She wasn't dying...

[ElectricBadger]

Yes its a bad trap...Thats the point. Only works on bad scum. If you, as town, ever misclaim than you are terrible at this game.

Agreed that misclaiming VT instead of a real claim would be bad play. However, I'm not seeing either the hesitance to claim or a VT claim as a

scum tell

. Why would not claiming monk help scum?