Open 177 (Monks and Masons) - Game Over.

[Benmage]

The hahaha homework Vote count

ElectricBadger - Scien
Hewitt - ElectricBadger, ODDin
ODDin - Hewitt, Nikanor, Scien, Farside22
SaintKerrigan - Benmage
Benmage - SaintKerrigan

Not Voting: Maemuki, ODDin, SaintKerrigan.

Lots of love
Haylxxx

Yes its a bad trap...Thats the point. Only works on bad scum. If you, as town, ever misclaim than you are terrible at this game.

Agreed that misclaiming VT instead of a real claim would be bad play. However, I'm not seeing either the hesitance to claim or a VT claim as a

scum tell

. Why would not claiming monk help scum?

I read the hesitance as scum going "oh crap" deer in headlights...not knowing what to claim...scarred to slip up in case her previous player claimed something in thread...so she hesitated and refused to claim...very scummy imo.

Town would've thought more coolly, and like i said deduced the possible outcomes and see how favorable it was for her.

[Scien]

This has gone to the point where it was ridiculous. Yes, you are right. Knowing current game state, and most game states, it would be bad for scum to try and pull something like this off.

However, without knowing the game state, you would not know if it was a good idea to claim or not. I wouldn't have answered you, and I have a pro-town role.

Pretending her hesitation is a tell is retarded.

[ElectricBadger]

...not knowing what to claim...

You've mentioned this a couple times. What to claim - as in, to claim monk or mafia?

[Scien]

I should say I wouldn't have answered until I understood game state.

[Benmage]

However, without knowing the game state, you would not know if it was a good idea to claim or not. I wouldn't have answered you, and I have a pro-town role.

I dont see the state of the game playing a part. Hopefully she atleast read the first post right? Rules ect? Right? Also sees its only D2 right?

Even not...give me a scenario where her claim is worse for her/the town.

[Benmage]

I should say I wouldn't have answered until I understood game state.

Then you would be lynched for being scum. Whether you flipped mafia or not who knows (See SpyreX's sig)

[Benmage]

...not knowing what to claim...

You've mentioned this a couple times. What to claim - as in, to claim monk or mafia?

Claim monk yes is the easy answer. (hesitation can stem from her being mafia and not knowing if there was a gamble previously in the game) Thats why its a terrible trap. Only a scum(and a bad player) would fall for it. It was a shot in the dark, and it worked.

[Scien]

Hesitation can stem from her being mafia and not knowing if there was a gamble previously in the game

So you are saying that it is impossible for a townie to hesitate at that point?

[ODDin]

Scien: You're ignoring 862.

Nik: Yes, I have a concept of honour and dignity. I was annoyed at Benmage's tactic and didn't want to use the info that came of it. Yes, I saw it as a scum claim at the time. No, I didn't vote because I wanted to take the time to think what course of action I was going to take in regards to that.
It's the equivalent of refusing to accept a pass from a fellow football player when you discover he's on doping.

[Benmage]

Hesitation can stem from her being mafia and not knowing if there was a gamble previously in the game

So you are saying that it is impossible for a townie to hesitate at that point?

Not impossible, just unlikely...mafia is usually not a game of absolutes..one goes with the most likely/logic. What i am doing...not what you are doing.

Please answer the questions/scenario creation you are ignoring.

[Benmage]

he's on doping.

huh?

[Scien]

I still find him not scummy. Not a bit. I don't see him outing his own partner in day one as being a scum move in any sense.

Not now that we know that only one scum per m/m. Not then if he thought there could be two.

You think you can see a way that that served scum?

[Scien]

Tthat was to Oddin in response to 862.

[Scien]

@Benmage, how likely would you think a bewildered townie in that position would hold back and hesitate while they tried to feel things out?

Who cares if I can name a scenario. Claiming that someone could think of all scenarios in that position without hesitating is bullshit.

[Benmage]

@Benmage, how likely would you think a bewildered townie in that position would hold back and hesitate while they tried to feel things out?

Who cares if I can name a scenario. Claiming that someone could think of all scenarios in that position without hesitating is bullshit.

Can you name one?? You just told me how easy it was to see.

I dont see a townie holding back. Even bewildered(obviously) i see them seeing the validity behind the question and the possible outcomes.

[ODDin]

he's on doping.

huh?

Should be "he's doping". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_per ... s_in_sport

I still find him not scummy. Not a bit. I don't see him outing his own partner in day one as being a scum move in any sense.

Not now that we know that only one scum per m/m. Not then if he thought there could be two.

You think you can see a way that that served scum?

A possible option is that he wanted to draw the mafia's fire towards his partner, thus having them kill a townie instead of a werewolf. Which worked, for that matter.

Funny, however, that 886 is a better defence than hewitt has ever put up, IMO.

[farside22]

@Benmage, how likely would you think a bewildered townie in that position would hold back and hesitate while they tried to feel things out?

Who cares if I can name a scenario. Claiming that someone could think of all scenarios in that position without hesitating is bullshit.

Can you name one?? You just told me how easy it was to see.

I dont see a townie holding back. Even bewildered(obviously) i see them seeing the validity behind the question and the possible outcomes.

Sorry but if I'm replacing in a game no matter my allignment I'm going to verify what Ben said as fact and seeing that he is lying I would vote for him.
There was no need for SK to claim. That was a ruse and him not claiming right way would not be scummy in my eyes.
His comments is suspect and how he worded it but I can see a bit of scien's reasoning and Ben's reasoning on this.

[Scien]

It took me a while to think about, and it was harder than I thought. But I can't think of many. Especially if you force day 2 into the mix. About the closest I can get is this:

Maybe in night 1, a mafia killed a werewolf. Leaving 7 townies, and 1 werewolf and , 2 mafia. They are relatively sure that the town is going to mislynch today, but decide that having the other m/m team would be a good idea. They have one mafia perform something that happens to out the m/m team, and is able to save himself for one day while the town screws around with what just happened.

We'll give the town the benefit of the doubt and claim they don't lynch off of the m/m team, and happen to hit a townie instead.

Werewolf kills a townie we'll say, mafia start hitting m/ms.

We'll say they hit a townie.

Walk into day 3 with 4 townies, 2 mafia, and 1 werewolf.

No way the town would let the person that outed the m/m off now... he dies today

wolfs kill another townie, remaining mafia kills the remaining m/m, we'll say they were wrong and it was a townie too.

day 4 1 wolf, one mafia 2 townies. Not too shabby but even though their m/m gambit didn't work it got them to an almost 50 50.

[Scien]

A possible option is that he wanted to draw the mafia's fire towards his partner, thus having them kill a townie instead of a werewolf. Which worked, for that matter.

That would be taking a big risk since the town knows that its only one in the team. Killing your partner who you should know is townie if you are scum... doesn't clear you at all and in fact might even hurt you in the long run when the town decides to test that "well one of them might be scum" theory.

[Benmage]

In this scenario your missing that If i forced a claim out for no reason, and was lying, i'd be lynched. End o story, not a good gamble.

[Scien]

Not saying it was in this case. Saying it could have been. And the person you were harassing, who didn't have all the information yet, would not have known if we fell into a case where it would make sense for scum to try and out the m/m team.

Hesitation would result no matter what alignment the person had.

[ODDin]

That would be taking a big risk since the town knows that its only one in the team. Killing your partner who you should know is townie if you are scum... doesn't clear you at all and in fact might even hurt you in the long run when the town decides to test that "well one of them might be scum" theory.

You're somewhat contradicting yourself here. You've said yourself that m/ms have less chances of being scum than everybody else. Today you said that lynching him can be a bad idea simply because of the created situation.
I'm not saying it clears his name completely, but him being a mason doesn't make him a more likely target for town.

[Scien]

Er... right. Wait whats the contradiction?

Statistically, yes, m/ms have a lower chance of being scum than an VT counterpart.

I think lynching him is bad for a variety of reasons... but don't see how that contradicts the above...

[Benmage]

Not saying it was in this case. Saying it could have been. And the person you were harassing, who didn't have all the information yet, would not have known if we fell into a case where it would make sense for scum to try and out the m/m team.

Hesitation would result no matter what alignment the person had.

I just showed you that your scenario was false...the town isnt going to dillydally and wonder what just happened. They're going to go what the fuck benmage lynch benmage etc etc...no mislynch, lol...what fairy land zero logicville do you live in??

Like you rescinded it isn't easy to think off an alternative scenario (which btw, you lied in trying to prove your point tsk tsk, but moving on)....there aren't logical alternatives. Its cut and dry and she dropped the ball.

[Scien]

Nope. Not buying it. I think anyone would hesitate.