Newbie 843 (Game Over)

[PaltryExcuse]

I will say though, based on how this game went, in newbie games I think the roleblocker should have both actions. If there are no power roles, there is no change. If there are power roles, the roleblocker is severely outclassed.

[Sanjay]

Just read the Scum QT.

Kudos on picking out the cop, Zach.

[Zachrulez]

Just read the Scum QT.

Kudos on picking out the cop, Zach.

Yeah, if you notice, I also pushed us toward killing Ojanen anyway, and the whole house of cards came tumbling down hard.

That was a bad bad mistake on my part.

[Zachrulez]

I think in hindsight, if we blocked tubby and killed manho, we probably could have steered the town to a tubby lynch, with his cop claim giving the town exactly zippo.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Interesting.

I just read the last two pages of 818, and Pomegranate's linked poll in post 626. May want to peruse it in regards to that poll.

Not sure if I want to standardize RB actions or not, but there are good arguments in there from both sides of the coin.

You do have the cop and doctor actions standardized do you not? I imagine it would be considered a problem if a newbie mod started using non sane cops or doctors that suddenly weren't guaranteed to work.

And I think that's the problem you risk when you allow the roleblocker actions to be done different ways.

Yes they are standardized, but I think you're comparing apples to oranges here.

Newbie games are based on Normal game setups with minimal flavor and weirdness to allow the New players to focus on learning the game instead of focusing on learning the game AND trying to figure out how this weird role works.

Not giving the scum RBer the ability to do both just changes how difficult the game is to win if the Goon gets lynched.

[Zachrulez]

Do you think it's right for a sole roleblocker to be unable to punish and capitalize on the mistakes the town has made by outing their power roles?

That probably brings the argument down to a far more basic level.

(I had a gut read on tubby as cop, but didn't have a clue who the doc was till manho claimed.)

[Zachrulez]

And of course the dillemna starbuck ran into was, kill Manho, get investigated guilty by cop, kill cop, and get kill blocked by doc.

Both those options suck, and only being able to roleblock the cop while giving the town an extra lynch, (I'd have to run the numbers, but I think a day 1 goon lynch gives them TWO extra lynches.) only sucks slightly less.

[Zachrulez]

I guess at the most basic level, I don't find the paticular setup fair, as it presents a setup that tends to teach newbies to hide behind power role claims, rather than being taught to keep quiet about them until the time is right and the info they gain is optimal to share with the town.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Do you think it's right for a sole roleblocker to be unable to punish and capitalize on the mistakes the town has made by outing their power roles?

That probably brings the argument down to a far more basic level.

(I had a gut read on tubby as cop, but didn't have a clue who the doc was till manho claimed.)

I'm not talking about right or wrong here. As a matter of fact, for my games I let the RBer do both. I believe it keeps proper balance in the game no matter what the setup is. Reading over 818, I can see the other side of the argument as well. From that point of view, if the Goon gets lynched, why should the RBer get a cookie?

Your statement above is flat-out wrong. Why should the RBer get to "capitalize on the mistakes of the Town", when the scum team is the one who screwed up to the point of getting the Goon lynched? This is me playing Devil's Advocate, not necessarily voicing my opinion.

This is not about whether it's right or wrong, it's about whether it should be a standard built into the Newbie queue, like the 3-week deadline is.

[Zachrulez]

I guess the real question should be why the rber exists in newbie setups in the first place.

I wasn't around on the site when they were introduced, so I don't know for sure why they were created to begin with.

[Zachrulez]

Do you think it's right for a sole roleblocker to be unable to punish and capitalize on the mistakes the town has made by outing their power roles?

That probably brings the argument down to a far more basic level.

(I had a gut read on tubby as cop, but didn't have a clue who the doc was till manho claimed.)

I'm not talking about right or wrong here. As a matter of fact, for my games I let the RBer do both. I believe it keeps proper balance in the game no matter what the setup is. Reading over 818, I can see the other side of the argument as well. From that point of view, if the Goon gets lynched, why should the RBer get a cookie?

Your statement above is flat-out wrong. Why should the RBer get to "capitalize on the mistakes of the Town", when the scum team is the one who screwed up to the point of getting the Goon lynched? This is me playing Devil's Advocate, not necessarily voicing my opinion.

This is not about whether it's right or wrong, it's about whether it should be a standard built into the Newbie queue, like the 3-week deadline is.

I don't concede that mistakes made by the scumteam allowed this to happen in the first place for this particular game.

My point is more to the fact that this kind of situation could easily happen again in a game with this ruleset, to the point where it punishes a scumteam for a goon lynch that resulted in a cop guilty. (What if it happened and the scumteam made no glaring mistakes?)

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

And of course the dillemna starbuck ran into was, kill Manho, get investigated guilty by cop, kill cop, and get kill blocked by doc.

Both those options suck, and only being able to roleblock the cop while giving the town an extra lynch, (I'd have to run the numbers, but I think a day 1 goon lynch gives them TWO extra lynches.) only sucks slightly less.

Again, why did the RBer look so scummy that she was a possible investigation target?


Remeber: Devil's Advocate.

I guess at the most basic level, I don't find the paticular setup fair, as it presents a setup that tends to teach newbies to hide behind power role claims, rather than being taught to keep quiet about them until the time is right and the info they gain is optimal to share with the town.

This is a MUCH better argument. The rest of it sounds like you're bitter about screwing the pooch and getting caught doing so. Don't take it personally, but that's how I'm seeing most of the discussion since the game ended - the scum team looks like they're trying to place blame anywhere except where it belongs. If this is going to offend you, then we don't need to have any further discussion. Take it for what it is: a simple observation. Distance yourself from the emotion of the game and see it from the perspective of someone who doesn't give a flip about the outcome.

This I have to think about. It's a very good point.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

I guess the real question should be why the rber exists in newbie setups in the first place.

I wasn't around on the site when they were introduced, so I don't know for sure why they were created to begin with.

The old C9 setup was too unbalanced in favor of the the scum team. We went to a 9 player setup to give the Town one more day worth of discussions and introduced the RB to keep people from playing "follow the cop" in 50% of the games.

[Zachrulez]

I guess at the most basic level, I don't find the paticular setup fair, as it presents a setup that tends to teach newbies to hide behind power role claims, rather than being taught to keep quiet about them until the time is right and the info they gain is optimal to share with the town.

This is a MUCH better argument. The rest of it sounds like you're bitter about screwing the pooch and getting caught doing so. Don't take it personally, but that's how I'm seeing most of the discussion since the game ended - the scum team looks like they're trying to place blame anywhere except where it belongs. If this is going to offend you, then we don't need to have any further discussion. Take it for what it is: a simple observation. Distance yourself from the emotion of the game and see it from the perspective of someone who doesn't give a flip about the outcome.

This I have to think about. It's a very good point.

No, I do concede that we would have lost the game anyway. (I'm not making this argument for THAT sake.)

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Do you think it's right for a sole roleblocker to be unable to punish and capitalize on the mistakes the town has made by outing their power roles?

That probably brings the argument down to a far more basic level.

(I had a gut read on tubby as cop, but didn't have a clue who the doc was till manho claimed.)

I'm not talking about right or wrong here. As a matter of fact, for my games I let the RBer do both. I believe it keeps proper balance in the game no matter what the setup is. Reading over 818, I can see the other side of the argument as well. From that point of view, if the Goon gets lynched, why should the RBer get a cookie?

Your statement above is flat-out wrong. Why should the RBer get to "capitalize on the mistakes of the Town", when the scum team is the one who screwed up to the point of getting the Goon lynched? This is me playing Devil's Advocate, not necessarily voicing my opinion.

This is not about whether it's right or wrong, it's about whether it should be a standard built into the Newbie queue, like the 3-week deadline is.

I don't concede that mistakes made by the scumteam allowed this to happen in the first place for this particular game.

My point is more to the fact that this kind of situation could easily happen again in a game with this ruleset, to the point where it punishes a scumteam for a goon lynch that resulted in a cop guilty. (What if it happened and the scumteam made no glaring mistakes?)

So the scum team had NO hand in it's loss? It was completely out of your hands that you lost?

IF that happened, it would suggest that a change was necessary. But, the chances of that happening are slim, considering that this setup only occurs 25% of the time. That other game would have to unfold pretty much the same way this one did.

And that's not likely to happen given that hohum made an error by not letting the scum team make a Night 3 kill.

[Sanjay]

I'm a little surprised that Starbuck didn't choose the 'let tubby get an investigation in and go for the Starbuck vs. tubby' finish.

[Zachrulez]

So the scum team had NO hand in it's loss? It was completely out of your hands that you lost?

IF that happened, it would suggest that a change was necessary. But, the chances of that happening are slim, considering that this setup only occurs 25% of the time. That other game would have to unfold pretty much the same way this one did.

And that's not likely to happen given that hohum made an error by not letting the scum team make a Night 3 kill.

I do understand that this is rare. I think this setup has been in effect for the last... 200 newbie games or so and has probably occurred about 50-60 times?

And factor in that a large percentage of mods don't use this ruleset.

So I do understand that this situation isn't likely to occur very often. I'm just more concerned about having a newbie placed in this position after watching the way the ICs were unable to handle it... you know? lol

[Starbuck]

There were many factors in the scum teams loss. For once, the number of replacements. For two, I know my absence due to personal things did not help at all. We aren't saying that we aren't at fault for the loss. What we are saying, or at least myself, is that there is a significant issue with this setup and since this is not the first time that it happened. hohum linked me to the last time it happened in August in 818.

This is the Newbie Queue and everything should standardized one way or another. This choice the mods have to make this role unable to do a normal scum function makes for an uneven game if they lose their goon.

[Zachrulez]

There were many factors in the scum teams loss. For once, the number of replacements. For two, I know my absence due to personal things did not help at all. We aren't saying that we aren't at fault for the loss. What we are saying, or at least myself, is that there is a significant issue with this setup and since this is not the first time that it happened. hohum linked me to the last time it happened in August in 818.

This is the Newbie Queue and everything should standardized one way or another. This choice the mods have to make this role unable to do a normal scum function makes for an uneven game if they lose their goon.

Very much this. Lord knows this isn't the first time I've lost a game, and it damn sure won't be the last.

[Starbuck]

There were many factors in the scum teams loss. For one, the number of replacements. For two, I know my absence due to personal things did not help at all. We aren't saying that we aren't at fault for the loss. What we are saying, or at least myself, is that there is a significant issue with this setup and since this is not the first time that it happened (hohum linked me to the last time it happened in August in 818) that it definitely needs to be fixed. It's a factor that can easily make a game unenjoyable. It seems that hohum has been the only mod to use this choice and despite issues in the past continues to do so.

This is the Newbie Queue and everything should standardized one way or another. This choice the mods have to make this role unable to do a normal scum function makes for an uneven game if they lose their goon.

[Starbuck]

Sorry, I posted too early with my other one and forgot I couldn't edit.

[Zachrulez]

I guess the real question should be why the rber exists in newbie setups in the first place.

I wasn't around on the site when they were introduced, so I don't know for sure why they were created to begin with.

The old C9 setup was too unbalanced in favor of the the scum team. We went to a 9 player setup to give the Town one more day worth of discussions and introduced the RB to keep people from playing "follow the cop" in 50% of the games.

I actually have a pretty good record in 7 player games, and actually enjoy playing in them a lot more than larger games.

That doesn't really have anything to do with what we're discussing, but hey, I yearn to lighten the mood.

[Kyiv]

Hey, I actually won a game for a change!

When I read the thread as a spectator, I also thought it was Tubby/Zach, but I quickly singled out manho when I actually got in. I even toyed with a manho/Soya pair, so I did pretty horribly D2. I'm still confused how we won after such a horrid D2, though I guess this is a lesson learned... sometimes things go so badly, that they get better later because of it XD I think what really saved town was the guilty claim on Zach.

So, Kyiv, What did you discuss with Zach before we lynched him?

I didn't say anything at the time, but I'm still confused by this XD

[Zachrulez]

Yeah, the guilty was devastating. There isn't really a logical arguments you can make against a claimed cop... that is something else I have learned.

Next time if I have a good read on who the cop is, I won't allow that to happen.

[Kyiv]

Unfortunately not. After posting a lengthy post about who the scumteam was and why, hohum accidentally posted the lynch scene for Zachrulez, revealing him to be a Mafia Goon. I saw it. Deadline hadn't arrived and Zach hadn't been hammered, so though I knew Zach was guilty based on my cop investigation, I was now privileged to information I shouldn't know: that Zach was not a roleblocker. I had to be replaced out. hohum even deleted my lengthy post too.

This game seems to be good at letting people down... so wait, is this why you pretty much gave up at the end of D3, Zach?