California Trilogy: City of Angels - On Camera (Game Over)

[VP Baltar]

I'll be around near deadline I think, so I'll solidify this (or make changes) when necessary.

Vote: Starkiss, hewitt, Thesp, Talilan, Mighty Orbots, No Lynch, [VP Baltar, zu faul]

[Thesp]

If Thesp is town, he screwed up his image by fishing for an AP claim previously.

How is this screwing up one's image? You have tossed this out as if it's somehow obvious that demanding a claim from zu_Faul was something scum would have been more likely to do, yet that's not clear to me at all. Can you back this up?

Private speculation doesn't serve anyone well. A gameplan should have been arranged with SL if you truly expected or wanted him to do certain things while off-camera. Still, setting it up where 2 scummy/lying players are left with someone who wasn't close to scummy (SL) was a boo-boo move. You share so many thoughts of what was going on in your head and what you thought would happen, but optimal play would have been to go over these ideas with SL. Unless you shared a QT with Shadow (joke), all thoughts and suggestions should have been posted.

I don't recall, what was your stance on curiouskarmadog's refusal to give details on who would be onstage?

[StarKiss]

{Kise}

My mention of Glork in the last post should be Bagel Eating Frog***
I confused the player with the role.

When it turns out you have been consistently wrong about significant things for much of the game, your later reaction is not to show trepidation or uncertainty at your conclusions based on this history (one breakdown-moment after Gaspar's lynch notwithstanding), but instead has been to make bald-faced assertions of things in a similar manner as before. Moreover, when other people express any degree of uncertainty, your approach has been to inadvertently(?) belittle this by proclaiming quite proudly that such things are seemingly obvious.

(Warning, gross use of generalization and stereotypes below!)

Thesp, ortolan is Australian. All NZers know these brash and brazen neighbours of ours never, ever doubt themselves.

You reply to Thesp with a joke, seriously? Shit wasn't funny when the wrong people were being lynched. Have you told how you knew zu_faul was obv-AP yet? I don't see it, and at least 3 people have asked for your reason. You blew up because of something VP said and never got around to it.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 60#1994460

After all the possibilities/expectations listed here^ , the odds of getting the truth or desired outcome is outweighed by the other bits that comprise this clusterf*ck. Your mindset was apparently overloaded, so I take it you had(?) Still wish/would have recommended you publicly strategized with SL and everyone else about your reasons for choosing those 3 to remain off-camera last scene. Some leaders are totalitarians, but that never works out in the best interest of the majority. I can't stress enough how keeping all these plans caged up was the wrong move for a

townie

to do.

I knew that at the very least if one of them was lynched and town, that the other had to be scum.

Yes, but endgame got triggered due to another mislynch. Knowing alignments of unkilled scum doesn't do much [for me]. Just as I said a few days ago in regards to you not seeing my lynch through before endgame, you can't just decide to let people you think are scummy go free. If you're town, then make solid decisions and remain firm in those selections.

I did consider leaving someone very scummy offstage with 2 townie looking people but I had a premonition that whoever I chose as most scummy would end up not being scum at all.

I also thought that even if I left 2 scum offstage, one might lynch the other to look good going into endgame. If the rules were how I imagined them, this could've been a pretty likely scenario.

Jesus, Tal... okay, yet and still, when you're town, you go over things with the group. Assess others based on how they feel about your plans and re-judge your options to see which benefit town more and which benefit scum more.

As an FYI - my birthday is next Friday, and the party is next Saturday. I probably will not be useful around the deadline, which I hope we won't be running into.

Why the rush, cowboy?

Making nothing but bad decisions is not likely to come from town. I will flat out say that right now. If you'd like to do additional research to prove me wrong, be my guest.

Shit, um.. zwet, CJMiller, DeathNote, myk.. How trusting are you of their judgment when they're town? I ask this at the risk of comparing myself to them. But, in actuality, I'm saying that going with your gut or beliefs does not always turn out right. We have our good and bad days, is all. Call it BS if you will, but the fact I'm apart of a hydra should relay a hint that I don't have the schedule to stay caught up all the time and make sound decisions.

Starkiss

Scene 1: On-Stage-Good Decision (Follow Valentine)
Scene 2: Off-Stage-No Decision
Scene 3: On-Stage-Bad Decision (Pick Crone)
Scene 4: On-Stage-Bad Decision (Push the button)
Scene 5: Off-Stage-Bad Decision (Lynch Gaspar)
Scene 6: Off-Stage-Bad Decision (Lynch curiouskarmadog)
Scene 7: N/A

Thoughts: Starkiss has done nothing right all game other than follow Valentine in the first scene, and I can see a lonely scum (all of the confirmeds were off-stage) doing that to fit in.

Lonely scum... (-_-)
I'm not Nostradamus. If any of us knew all the right answers, we'd have a perfect game. What you neglect to consider is that this is not your typical game of mafia. Here, the anti-town faction has influence over which players are in the lynching field (off camera) and which players are in the other field (on camera). Not only that, but they know the outcomes beforehand. As hewitt said, checking voting patterns is not as reliable as interrogating players to find out whether they have logical or illogical motives behind every move they make.

StarKiss, give us a good reason not to lynch you (hint: tell us about someone else who is scummier).

Because there is far more shit to stack against Talilan to the point where flies take vacation around them. Let's face it, except for KY Krew, nobody has pegged scum and successfully saw their lynch through. With KY, he basically dropped the soap himself, so no crafty case was required. Now our guts have been screwed for this entire game as far as who we think is scum. But after so many months, we can now look back and compile what we see is wrong with how other players handled actions/situations. I admit to being unproductive for a large part of the game, and bumping heads with CKD past a gaming-level. Now, question me to determine whether the motivation behind my actions were logical or illogical.

I'll go ahead and put dramonic in the spotlight by saying it was his choices scenes 3 through 5, which leaves me as the decider scene 1 and scene 6. Now, looking at that and viewing me as mafia, you could assume I pick my spots carefully so "I don't get caught." Wouldn't I be more likely to (for lack of a better word) coach dramonic on which choices to make? I didn't know right from wrong because I AM apart of the uninformed majority (innocents). I was just as curious as dramo whether we were making the right decisions or not, but who am I to stop him from picking what he wants when I am not 100% myself? On the flipside, I wouldn't expect him to do the same with me neither. It's a coinflip as far as I see it. We're a hydra, and I invited him to join me because I needed a hand keeping up with activity. Why would I invite him to the game, but restrict him from making his own decisions? This isn't

The Color Purple

, I'm not Danny Glover, and he's not Oprah. He did haul in a good chunk of activity when I couldn't avoid prodding range, so that also influenced me to stand back when voting as he pleased without giving my consent. We did at least give thoughts on every player from time to time to stay up to date, so we both shared knowledge before making our decisions. Our compromise is essentially an unspoken agreement that we're playing this as individuals, not a team (of schemers and plotters).

If anyone wants to go deep enough to pull meta into the argument, I've f*cked up as town quite a bit recently, so regardless of alignment I am not immune to making incorrect decisions. What I now have to think about is why people look at our voting records and think it has any unique/specific significance to my decision-making in this game and this game only, as opposed to how I play in any other instance.

Not to tunnel on Thespy, but this demonstrates an extraordinary level of insight both compared to other players in the game, and compared to how I thought he was keeping up with the game at the time.

During scene 6, how far along were you caught up, Thesp?

Re: Thesp not wanting to send a sign onstage... Yes I thought it was worth noting after I it was revealed that maiden wouldn't have been a bad pick. Thesp didn't appear to put any effort into figuring out the puzzle himself, just wanted onstage to play it out.

Thoughts, Thesp? -- You as well, MO?

Happy with a Starkiss lynch (or a hewitt lynch, really, I can't imagine both of them being town, and could easily imagine both being scum).

Honestly, I'm in the camp of belief that there is no way in hell that both Starkiss and hewitt are both town.

So, my conclusion is we lynch them back to back and see where we are at.

With no consideration for what we flip. Right. Golden.

StarKiss/Kise,

The post that you linked seemed awfully rhetorical to me now and back then too. When I figured out that you actually expected a reply, I replied. (As I pointed out to you already) my post was about as clear and unambiguous as it is possible to be!

Yes, you answered properly after the 7th exchange. Still, you've been hounding me for a long time, yet others have gotten lynched instead. When someone asks a question, you don't dodge them.

If VP is scum the town has automatically lost, you're not going to win because you will never lynch him.

No offense to anyone, but I think MO and VP can easily have psychological control over the others. This is why I wish there was something more concrete for me to go on with them if they are scum because I'm pretty sure the PNIA would use them to easily put the game in a burrito and wrap it up. VP lining up lynches is not seen as scummy to others because.. I'm scummy to others.

[VP Baltar]

Happy B-day, Thesp!

[StarKiss]

Happy birthday.

If Thesp is town, he screwed up his image by fishing for an AP claim previously.

How is this screwing up one's image?

Because it was at a time when scum could still kill in between scenes, and before they could manipulate who's in endgame. In other words, if scum knew before endgame that zu_faul was AP (opposed to hewitt or myself), they could have had the choice to eliminate him before hand so that we would currently be playing with 7 unconfirmed players, rather than 6.

I don't recall, what was your stance on curiouskarmadog's refusal to give details on who would be onstage?

CKD or Talilan? If CKD, you'll need to tell me which scene or link to it. If you're talking about Talilan however, I never posted anything about it because I was out of town for Thanksgiving before they decided on who went onstage, and when I returned, endgame was already in progress I believe. What I will say is that keeping information like that to yourself is slick, and denies others the ability to go back and use written evidence to address you with in the future. As we are told, Talitha had all kind of thoughts racing through her head, so we can't pin anything factual to her. Slick, as I said. Can't remember if someone else brought this up, but DAB not firing Talilan (in other words, trusting Talilan to hand her and Thok a quicklynch) makes me wonder.

[StarKiss]

{Kise... damn I'm tired}

[] for StarKiss because she promised stuff tomorrow.

He. (-_-)

what do you think about Hewitt? More likely scum or more likely town?

Strongly disbelieving he's scum chosen to win this game for his faction. And I don't say that to offend him, but look at how it's gone down... Who are the most favored lynches currently? Hewitt and myself. It's been that way for a while, but no action has been considered until now, endgame. This is what leads me to believe he's town. He's basically in the same situation as me, so it's by default that I think he has the same alignment and me and has had the same thoughts as me, etc. Why, oh why, would scum blatantly pick all the wrong choices? That question has a degree of WIFOM, but cut the crap. You would have to give him credit if he's anti-town not to be so foolish (sorry if that's an ad hom -- if you aren't innocent, hew). I would like to think his partners would have instructed him to have a better image if he is in the scum group.
------>

If you're scum VP then you're doing exactly what you set out to do prior to this scene and I have to give you props for it. The whole point of the scum in this scene was to beat down Starkiss and myself so badly that there's absolutely no chance that we will not be lynched. And now, you've done it. So congrats if you're scum, if you're not, then you're the reason why we've lost.

I agree.

Honestly, if you're town, I really want to see something significant from you.

FFS.. what else do you want, if you're town? Right now I'm in Q & A mode. Be honest though, am I bumped up on your list because I suggested lynching you for an experiment? Chill, I'm not being stupid. Talilan has my attention.

I got half a page to read. Sleep for now.

[VP Baltar]

I think you are putting effort in Kise. I didn't care for the first post, which was why I bumped you up. However, I need to review these last few posts from you in depth, plus look at why you weren't on the KY Krew lynch even though you are saying now he was obv scum.

My vote could still change before the day is over. I at least appreciate you're trying so I can solidify my read one way or the other, as opposed to hewitt.

[Mighty Orbots]

Talitha, Ortolan stated that zu_Faul was "obv" AP. Do you agree?

Question to both of you: When did you come to this conclusion?

Reading StarKiss' stuff now in depth.

[Thesp]

When it turns out you have been consistently wrong about significant things for much of the game, your later reaction is not to show trepidation or uncertainty at your conclusions based on this history (one breakdown-moment after Gaspar's lynch notwithstanding), but instead has been to make bald-faced assertions of things in a similar manner as before. Moreover, when other people express any degree of uncertainty, your approach has been to inadvertently(?) belittle this by proclaiming quite proudly that such things are seemingly obvious.

(Warning, gross use of generalization and stereotypes below!)

Thesp, ortolan is Australian. All NZers know these brash and brazen neighbours of ours never, ever doubt themselves.

You reply to Thesp with a joke, seriously?

For what it's worth, I appreciated the humor, though that may be because I <3 Tally.

As an FYI - my birthday is next Friday, and the party is next Saturday. I probably will not be useful around the deadline, which I hope we won't be running into.

Why the rush, cowboy?

Deadline lynches are pansy lynches. People should man/woman-up and lynch someone. I will switch to lynch hewitt if I'm around and need to. (Also see Mighty Orbot's concern with Condorcet manipulation, though I suspect there's less flexibility in that right now with both you and hewitt at the top of almost everyone's list(?).)

Not to tunnel on Thespy, but this demonstrates an extraordinary level of insight both compared to other players in the game, and compared to how I thought he was keeping up with the game at the time.

During scene 6, how far along were you caught up, Thesp?

I believe I was pretty well caught up (with a moments of lapse). I did some number-crunching from time to time, and I've always found endgame scenarios intriguing (particularly as we were getting down to 4 people offstage at a time).

Re: Thesp not wanting to send a sign onstage... Yes I thought it was worth noting after I it was revealed that maiden wouldn't have been a bad pick. Thesp didn't appear to put any effort into figuring out the puzzle himself, just wanted onstage to play it out.

Thoughts, Thesp? -- You as well, MO?

Anything in particular you're looking for? I thought about it from time to time, but no, I did not put much effort into puzzle solving, and I adamantly did not want to send a signal onstage. Talilan is correct in her observations here.

Happy B-day, Thesp!

Happy birthday.

Thanks!

Happy birthday.

If Thesp is town, he screwed up his image by fishing for an AP claim previously.

How is this screwing up one's image?

Because it was at a time when scum could still kill in between scenes, and before they could manipulate who's in endgame. In other words, if scum knew before endgame that zu_faul was AP (opposed to hewitt or myself), they could have had the choice to eliminate him before hand so that we would currently be playing with 7 unconfirmed players, rather than 6.

When was this time that the scum could kill that you speak of? (We'll get to the fact that you haven't demonstrated that the scum actually wanted to kill the AP yet - I think there are good reasons the scum

wouldn't

want to kill the AP.)

I don't recall, what was your stance on curiouskarmadog's refusal to give details on who would be onstage?

CKD or Talilan? If CKD, you'll need to tell me which scene or link to it.

Sure. Here's a small sampling, Check out CKD's posts around the between scenes (ca. 10/1 and 10/20):

I dont think we should have ANY conversation about who to hang tomorrow, until the scene starts, why give scum so much information? if you have thoughts about who should go or not, go ahead and state your case....I will listen, but no longer going to even fucking hint at who is going...if you have a problem with that that, fire me.

in that case (no advocates) chat away....that being said, I am not indicating anything though.

gaspar, you would love it if you could tell me who to send wouldnt you?

Of course I would. I am a power hungry lunatic. I wouldn't be Glork if not.

But seriously, I was suggesting that the collective tell you who to send, not me personally.

no, you have a problem with that..lynch me.

I dont want scum to know who I am sending before the scene...if you have a suggestion I will listen, but you are running out of time.

putting together a list now...

and no, not going to tell you who i am picking....but would love to hear suggestions and why...

[Mighty Orbots]

I don't like how StarKiss keeps trying to pair me and VP. I don't know what it means but it strikes me as strange.

But you still go along with it. Same with MO. You both just slid votes onto him after he said to lynch him. But that's hewitt's bad for giving you both justification to vote for him so nonchalantly.

This is blatant BS. I gave my justification for my vote earlier in the thread (1219, 1282), and VP did as well (1286). The timing of my vote came when it was blindingly obvious that hewitt wasn't going to participate.

(I'll note this here: StarKiss is the condorcet winner, looks like hewitt wins)

If anyone wants to go deep enough to pull meta into the argument, I've f*cked up as town quite a bit recently, so regardless of alignment I am not immune to making incorrect decisions. What I now have to think about is why people look at our voting records and think it has any unique/specific significance to my decision-making in this game and this game only, as opposed to how I play in any other instance.

This is coming from the self-proclaimed Jesus Kise?

Re: Thesp not wanting to send a sign onstage... Yes I thought it was worth noting after I it was revealed that maiden wouldn't have been a bad pick. Thesp didn't appear to put any effort into figuring out the puzzle himself, just wanted onstage to play it out.

Thoughts, Thesp? -- You as well, MO?

I don't see the significance of this.

No offense to anyone, but I think MO and VP can easily have psychological control over the others

This is the 3rd or 4th pairing. It's creepy.

---

Actually, question to VP: Let's say one of [hewitt, StarKiss] is lynched, and the lynchee flips town. You still willing to stick with the plan?

[Mighty Orbots]

you haven't demonstrated that the scum actually wanted to kill the AP yet - I think there are good reasons the scum

wouldn't

want to kill the AP.)

Happy birthday Thesp. I'm curious about this. What good reasons would the scum not want to off a confirmed town player prior to endgame?

[Thesp]

you haven't demonstrated that the scum actually wanted to kill the AP yet - I think there are good reasons the scum

wouldn't

want to kill the AP.)

Happy birthday Thesp. I'm curious about this. What good reasons would the scum not want to off a confirmed town player prior to endgame?

Sure, I touched on this a bit earlier today:

Does anyone have any thoughts why the scum would not kill the obv-AP Zu Faul? It really bugs the hell out of me and I cannot figure out why they would not do it.

My suspicion is that if they killed him, then a new one would be assigned (whether they feared this or knew this). I bet that they didn't want someone different being thought of as confirmed town, and they'd just hunt the other trusted people in the town. I'm not sure how useful this guess is, though.
(This is somewhat related to a gambit I was going to suggest at some point in time, whereby we out the AP and he makes all the onstage decisions. It turned out to be less useful in some instances, and even if we could get over the fear of outing the AP, it was somewhat difficult to coordinate with the small time between scenes.)

So as AP, zu_Faul is confirmed town, and lets suppose he's killed and a new AP is assigned, and is confirmed town as well. What if it's hewitt? Or StarKiss? Or Talilan? Or...you get the picture. Someone else we may have thought was scum might end up with the role, taking them off the lynch-table. Compare this with the scum's most recent nightkill, sottyrulez, whom everyone seemed to think was pro-town anyway. How likely is it that sottyrulez would have been lynched?

With their last nightkill (sottyrulez, before Scene 6), did the scum remove any possible lynchees? Compare this with if they'd killed zu_Faul (whom was seemingly known by the scum anyway), is it possible they would have removed a possible lynchee with a re-assigned AP?


...

Another thought just came to me. If Talilan is scum and really priming theirself for the ideal endgame, why not put theirself in with scum and zu_Faul? I'm inclined to think scum-Talilan would have done so. (This is somewhat contrary to my re-assigned AP theory, but it's also possible the AP wouldn't be re-assigned when killed in the last scene - I dunno.)

[Mighty Orbots]

So as AP, zu_Faul is confirmed town, and lets suppose he's killed and a new AP is assigned, and is confirmed town as well. What if it's hewitt? Or StarKiss? Or Talilan? Or...you get the picture.

Where does it say that the replacement AP must be town?

[Thesp]

So as AP, zu_Faul is confirmed town, and lets suppose he's killed and a new AP is assigned, and is confirmed town as well. What if it's hewitt? Or StarKiss? Or Talilan? Or...you get the picture.

Where does it say that the replacement AP must be town?

It doesn't. It's not clear what would happen. (Perhaps the scum know, or are afraid of what might happen.)

[VP Baltar]

I thought someone mentioned somewhere that the AP could go to either town or scum if the first person died?

Maybe I'm imagining things.

[Mr. Grey]

Deadline:

Approximately 26.5 hours from this post.

Vote Count:

4 to lynch.

StarKiss: 2 (Talilan, Thesp)
hewitt: 1 (Mighty Orbots)
Talilan: 1 (hewitt)

Not Voting: 3 (StarKiss, VP Baltar, zu_Faul)

Current Condorcet Winner:

StarKiss

To view the complete table of pairwise results, put the following information into this form.

1,hewitt
2,Mighty Orbots
3,StarKiss
4,Talilan
5,Thesp
6,VP Baltar
7,zu_Faul
8,No Lynch
9,Mr. Grey

1:4>3>2>5>6>7>8>1
1:1>4>3=5>6>9>2>8>7
1:1=2=4=5=6=7=8>3
1:3>5>1=2>6>7>4>8
1:3>1=2>4=6>8>5=7
1:3>1>5>4>2>8>6=7
1:3>1>4=6>2>5>8>7

[VP Baltar]

Starkiss-Can you explain why you were essentially a non-entity during the KY Krew lynch? You never even mentioned him (in your very few posts) until after he was lynched. Why did you believe him so readily about the cult when he was very obviously scum? Do you generally trust scum when they are in their death spiral?

[VP Baltar]

It's close to futile to build a case on someone who plays flawless, but suspicion should still, at the very least, be put on those less scummy [MO, VP].

I hardly think I've played flawlessly. I've made plenty of mistakes throughout this game, but I also think I've given a full account for those mistakes and outlined my thought processes as to why I made the decisions that I have.

Other players have not and that is why they are higher on my scum list than someone like MO. Talilan for instance has made some pretty whack decisions as the Director and I don't know if they accounts they gave really add up entirely. Hewitt has shirked culpability for his actions about 1000 times in this thread, repeatedly feigning frustration with the game. If he really hated this game so much, why didn't he replace about 5 scenes ago? Instead he just keeps going "I don't care, this is stupid. You guys do whatever you want and I'll vote with it". I mean, is there a position anyone could take that's more scummy?

Private speculation doesn't serve anyone well. A gameplan should have been arranged with SL if you truly expected or wanted him to do certain things while off-camera. Still, setting it up where 2 scummy/lying players are left with someone who wasn't close to scummy (SL) was a boo-boo move. You share so many thoughts of what was going on in your head and what you thought would happen, but optimal play would have been to go over these ideas with SL. Unless you shared a QT with Shadow (joke), all thoughts and suggestions should have been posted.

I do agree with this. It was rather unfortunate that the travel portion of my V/LA coincided with the between phases portion of 6 and 7 because I didn't get much of a chance to participate. I think i need to read over that time period more closely a second time, as it does not seem like a good game plan was put forth at all and I don't know why. (not just from Talilan, but from everyone else as well)

Really though, CKD created a him-or-me situation. He pretty much overlooked me agreeing with him during the 1st scene due to how hesitant I was to believe his word. He rode that for the longest and it popped up during the time I lynched him. If he wasn't being a dick towards me, I would have tried to question Thesp more for pestering zu_faul into claiming AP or not. As said earlier, I wanted to find other ways to prove CKD's advocate PM was true, but even now I think SMG isn't different from Sci'. CKD got duped by whoever wrote the PM.

And who do you think wrote that PM?

If you wanted to experiment with hewitt or myself, that should have happened long ago at a time when the town's chances of winning/lynching anti-town were in a better position than now.

See, this bothers me...You're not anti-town, you're scummy with a capital S. You have been working against the goals of the town the entire game, and it's a very big coincidence that you and hewitt are trying to push.

Kise, I've played plenty of games with you to know that you're a competent player. dram is less proficient, but he's certainly not awful (I was recently scum with him and won), so how do you expect me to believe that you guys couldn't make a correct choice beyond the very first scene?

I mean, the KY Krew thing was a slam dunk and still nothing from you. The town-Kise I know would have been all over him like a cheap suit and laughed about it as he was strung up. I'm not seeing that zeal here at all.

Shit, um.. zwet, CJMiller, DeathNote, myk.. How trusting are you of their judgment when they're town?

Well, that is neither here nor there because you are not these players, nor do you have their track record. Zwet I can usually read just fine. The others I only have limited experience with. However, I have enough games with you Kise (and to a lesser extent dram) to say that I'm comfortable in my expectations of you both.

I'm saying that going with your gut or beliefs does not always turn out right. We have our good and bad days, is all. Call it BS if you will, but the fact I'm apart of a hydra should relay a hint that I don't have the schedule to stay caught up all the time and make sound decisions.

Well, I think this is a massive and complex game for anyone to keep up with, but even if you were flat out guessing in every scene you'd have a better track record than you do. It's not gut, it's factual voting records and stances I am looking at here.

I'm not Nostradamus. If any of us knew all the right answers, we'd have a perfect game. What you neglect to consider is that this is not your typical game of mafia. Here, the anti-town faction has influence over which players are in the lynching field (off camera) and which players are in the other field (on camera). Not only that, but they know the outcomes beforehand. As hewitt said, checking voting patterns is not as reliable as interrogating players to find out whether they have logical or illogical motives behind every move they make.

Trust me, I looked at motives. Yours are lackluster at best. And again, flat out guessing would return better results than you have done. Like I said, I've made plenty of bad decisions this game, but even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in awhile.

I'll go ahead and put dramonic in the spotlight by saying it was his choices scenes 3 through 5, which leaves me as the decider scene 1 and scene 6.

What about scene 2? And this is the crap that I was talking about earlier, you guys are a hydra and your decisions count for both of you. No shoving blame on your partner.

I didn't know right from wrong because I AM apart of the uninformed majority (innocents).

This is laughably ridiculous. "I'm town, therefore I'm clueless."

With no consideration for what we flip. Right. Golden.

I think it is hilarious how much you guys are defending each other as the poor little orphans who are being beat up on by the big, bad master playing scum who never make a mistake. I mean, wtf? I already pointed out that DGB and Thok had better voting records than almost ANYONE who is endgame here now, so your argument that they were the obv. picks for endgame doesn't work.

You guys aren't scum hunting so much as you are making AtE, and it's getting old very quickly.

Can't remember if someone else brought this up, but DAB not firing Talilan (in other words, trusting Talilan to hand her and Thok a quicklynch) makes me wonder.

This is a very strong point actually. Why wouldn't scum DGB want the director's position? I think she had ample opportunity to do it too.

It is stuff like this that bothers me about Talilan. There are too many little coincidences with their play later on that are awful.

Why, oh why, would scum blatantly pick all the wrong choices? That question has a degree of WIFOM, but cut the crap. You would have to give him credit if he's anti-town not to be so foolish (sorry if that's an ad hom -- if you aren't innocent, hew). I would like to think his partners would have instructed him to have a better image if he is in the scum group.

Unless one or both of you was not meant to be in endgame. Scum didn't get a choice of who to send if Talilan is town.


Which brings me to my next thought...it may be best if we determine Talilan's alignment now. There are a lot of "coincidences" with Tal's play that don't make sense from a town perspective.

I hate to change directions around deadline, but knowing their alignment would make me infinitely more confident about Starkiss and hewitt.

I don't know...I always second guess myself. I want other people's thoughts on a Talilan lynch and their bad directorial choices combined with the fact that DGB didn't fire them and take control of the game.

[VP Baltar]

Also, I should be around tonight and to deadline, so I really want to hash this out proper and make the correct choice today. Let's save our mislynch for tomorrow folks if we need it.

[Talilan]

Which 3 players would you have left offstage VP. StarKiss: same question.

Lynching us based on the actions of a known scum would be bad play. As for the bad directorial choices, please weigh this up as you consider the above question with your vast benefit of hindsight.

~Tal

[VP Baltar]

I've considered your explanations of your actions, believe me.

If I was leaving people off stage in that scene it might have been DGB, Starkiss, hewitt or some mix like that. Not saying it would have been correct and it could have ended the same way, but SL was obv town and a bad choice.

[Mighty Orbots]

Which brings me to my next thought...it may be best if we determine Talilan's alignment now. There are a lot of "coincidences" with Tal's play that don't make sense from a town perspective.

I hate to change directions around deadline, but knowing their alignment would make me infinitely more confident about Starkiss and hewitt.

I don't know...I always second guess myself. I want other people's thoughts on a Talilan lynch and their bad directorial choices combined with the fact that DGB didn't fire them and take control of the game.

I'm not at all opposed to a Talilan lynch (obviously) but it's puzzling to see you consider one when you've got three people ahead of them on your condorcet.

Help me fill in the blanks.

Townilan: Starkiss = ?; hewitt = ?
Scumilan: Starkiss = ?; hewitt = ?

[Talilan]

Talitha, Ortolan stated that zu_Faul was "obv" AP. Do you agree?

Question to both of you: When did you come to this conclusion?

Do I agree? Not entirely although he was a very good candidate for AP.

Before Panzer flaked, I posted in our quicktopic that he was either scum or the AP. He was hiding something. Then zu_Faul replaced and we had the long wait and it pointed to zu_Faul being the AP. I thought he was very possibly the AP but wondered if this was perhaps a little obvious. Then DGB did some over-the-top posts, she kept talking about the AP, and with her timing, etc, she was definitely pointing at zu_Faul as the AP. I couldn't work out why someone would do this? I decided she must be the AP trying to throw the scum off her scent. I was very wrong - discovered this when she got given a job.

When SL posted that he didn't think Mr Green (sotty) was vanilla, I kinda agreed. I had thought it was possible they were the AP.

When Thesp challenged zu_Faul onstage I briefly wondered if HE was the AP.. then realised he had a job and couldn't be.

So the answer is yes it was obvious, but no it wasn't

obvious

(to someone who is seeing conspiracy everywhere).

I concluded he was the AP when he claimed it.

~Tal

[Talilan]

If I was leaving people off stage in that scene it might have been DGB, Starkiss, hewitt or some mix like that. Not saying it would have been correct and it could have ended the same way, but SL was obv town and a bad choice.

Your 3 picks would have left offstage with no method of communication. Something CKD got villified for. And unless all 3 are scum (possible but by no means certain), would have put us automatically into worst possible endgame. We also would not have got the benefit of seeing two scum flip, because the scum would have had all the time in the world to make their lynch look like a well-meaning one. My picks were better.

~Tal

[Thesp]

The more I ponder why hewitt might have been picked as the Advocate for the last scene, the more I'm happy with lynching him. I also don't have a problem with Talilan's picks for the last scene.