Mini 889 - Shopping Frenzy (Over)

[nhammen]

Vote Count

Torqez (4): Debonair Danny DiPietro, julienvonwolfe, Scott Brosius, Chinaman
Debonair Danny DiPietro (3): muh316, el simo, don_johnson
julienvonwolfe (2): PaltryExcuse, Wulfy
don_johnson (1): Josh Lyman
Chinaman (1): Torqez

Not voting

(1): CallMeLiam

with 12 players remaining, it takes 7 to lynch

[don_johnson]

hello. apparently i am voting ddd. i will

unvote

until i find out why.

[PaltryExcuse]

@Chinaman: You still haven't answered my question about Post 86 about why you were defending DDD. It seemed to be based on meta or gut feeling.

Do you think your vote is a powerful tool and if so, do you think keeping track of it is important?

Yes. It is the only way townies can use their greatest power in the game, their intellect.

@DDD:
You attacked Torqez for mentioning that he was bored with the game, but stayed do to the fact he had some feeling of responsibility as scum and that's why he didn't replace out.
Now you're attacking Eleven...etc. for replacing out when attacked as scum.
So scum feel an allegiance to the game at one moment but quickly flee in others?

@JVW: I've seen minor questions from you, but I haven't seen you pursue anyone or any point as of yet. My vote will stay on you until I see some active scumhunting instead of more random bandwagonning to get people talking.

[Chinaman]

I actually did answer that question, but I put Wolfy's quote in before my answer to it. It's in p121. I thought that answer would have answered it even though I didn't quote your question as you and Wolfy basically asked the same thing.

As far as asking you about the vote, I asked because your vote on JVW was from RVS, but I see now you have explained why you have kept it there. Do you think JVW is the scummiest in the game thus far?

Also, do you think my points on Torq are invalid? I see you don't buy into DDD's, but you haven't mentioned your thoughts on mine.

[PaltryExcuse]

I actually did answer that question, but I put Wolfy's quote in before my answer to it. It's in p121. I thought that answer would have answered it even though I didn't quote your question as you and Wolfy basically asked the same thing.

As far as asking you about the vote, I asked because your vote on JVW was from RVS, but I see now you have explained why you have kept it there. Do you think JVW is the scummiest in the game thus far?

Also, do you think my points on Torq are invalid? I see you don't buy into DDD's, but you haven't mentioned your thoughts on mine.

Ah, sorry I missed it during the read. If it was meta, I would argue from the limited meta read I got on DDD that his town and scum play are similar, and I wouldn't have been happy with the reasoning. I am new to the game and may not notice any significant changes, but overall I'm going on play for a read on DDD. Gut, I can understand.

About JVW: Yuppers. At this point, JVW's admitted random vote in order to 'get a reaction' is ridiculous. Other people were scumhunting, and to re-enter the RVS stage seems like he's taking away from the development that is going on and stalls the town more than helps it. Random bandwagons when the game is leaving RVS in my opinion is useless and is just a 'look I'm participating post' while actually hindering town progress.

About Torqez: You make a good point, he does read slightly OMGUS'y, and Scott's comment on how he has not scum hunted is not good either. I'd say he's second in my books.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

About this scum don't replace / town replace / speculating on why someone would stay in the game as I really want these speculations to end due to dead end these seem to lead to:
I'm pre-disposed to thinking this is individual. My only completed game had 3 replacements that weren't due to personal problems:
a) Newbie-town got pressured and left
b) Newbie just left
c) My scum partner was pressured and left

Leaving due to pressure IMO: Not a scum tell.
Leaving in general: Not a scum tell.
Staying around: I'd argue that the lack of conversation early on in the game caused some boredom, and why the unpressured newbie just left. Not a scum tell.

[Torqez]

I find it comical that you all think I'm scummy for not scumhunting, whereas a plethora of others have done even less.

[Chinaman]

well, this is british comedy...glad it made you laugh.

btw, your last post adds to those which include zero scum hunting.

[Wulfy]

Hm... I didn't think about the potential ploy by wolfe to undo all progress by re-entering the RVS, but you could be correct.
I can say much more on the matter until he responds.
as for Don, Welcome, I do hope some fresh insight will inject a bit of life into this game as well. Please, do post all thoughts as unabridged as you can.

[CallMeLiam]

Posting as I read:

Post 42 - Muh suggets a no lynch. Usually not something I like to see on day one. His assumption of a cop is also of the not-good camp.
Then torquez acts stupid, and Debonair Danny jumps right onto him for it. Since he was already voting him, this smells bussy. As the conversation goes on it seems less like he's joking and more like he would be happy lynching torquez after barely three pages. Hmm.

Post 58 from Chinaman won back points lost when he wishy-washily supported the no-lynch. he fends off torquez's somewhat weak attack and vote in the first half of the post and then proceeds to defend torquez in the second. Right. That's certainly how I'd try to buddy up to someone too

Post 76 from DDD seems like he's grabbing onto other people's ideas (Paltry Excuse's question in the previous post) and adding his own deeply spurious logic to justify a vote and his push on torquez. I know lots of people that much prefer being town and I know people that much prefer being scum. Further down the page Julienvonwolfe says he's befuddled by muh's reaction, but muh is reacting just like I would.

Post 98 from DDD is very flippant and contains (in this order) DDD's opinion stated as fact, a flippant refusal to make a case against torquez, then a fairly accurate attack, if slight, on torquez, then reiteration of his vote being pre-emptive' Lynch him before he acts scummy eh? Finally a flippant defense of himself. The following:

There’s also little active participation from you other than a general distress at the vote count and trying to divert attention from yourself.

Is the only time I've seen DDD post a decent justification for his vote, and this is after a couple of pages of pushing hard for a torquez lynch.

Post 103 is julienvonwolfe nagging people to chip in because he's bored. he handily claims not to have a read on the main debate so as to better sit on his fence of neutrality and minimal content.

Post 111 is el simo pointing out the obvious flaw in DDD's logic, but this doesn't address the lack of non-defensive content from torquez.

Post 120 is julienvonwolfe hopping on a bandwagon with minimal justification.

Post 142 is pure bull from Josh Lyman. His activity really kicks in once the torquez wagon gains speed although this could be coincidence. This post being pretty scummy could not.

Then a really handsome player joins the game with an unvote. Then don_johnson does the same.


Right. So my main problem is people trying to use meta about replacements and lurking. I have replaced out as town and scum, vanillas and power roles. I have lurked as the same due to real life circumstances or due to in game tactics. I think it's very very risky to use any of this as a key part of decision making and the fact that it's dominating aspects of the debate is deeply unhelpful to the town.

As for Torq vs DDD my initial read is that DDD is an overenthusiastic townie although misguided in his leaning on meta and that torq is not being helpful in the least towards the town. Not being helpful would be a fine reason to lynch later in the game but on day one we have actually scummy behaviour that I'd like to push on. Torq, maybe take a while to re-read and spot some scum rather than just going after your attacker.

The only other players I have a real read on are chinaman and muh as slightly pro-town because I've agreed with a lot of what they say, and julienvonwolfe as scummy because of his noncommital bandwagony play and vote. So

vote: julienvonwolfe

Questions, comments?

[julienvonwolfe]

Wulfy, mind elaborating on how I was 'blindly following the heaviest wagon'? What do you mean by 'heaviest'?

Most votes, though I could have been mistaken.

You are indeed. The only vote on Torqez at the time of my vote was DDD's, according to the votecount five posts above my vote.

It wasn't random at all. I am following DDD's logic to see what comes of it. So far, nothing makes me want to stop following DDD's logic - except perhaps for muh, who I was previously voting, and is now lurking.

Initially I was feeling askance about Chinaman, but they seem to have improved their posting.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I find it comical that you all think I'm scummy for not scumhunting, whereas a plethora of others have done even less.

That reasoning never fooled your mother, you expect it to work on us?

"But mom, everyone else is doing it."

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

@DDD:
You attacked Torqez for mentioning that he was bored with the game, but stayed do to the fact he had some feeling of responsibility as scum and that's why he didn't replace out.
Now you're attacking Eleven...etc. for replacing out when attacked as scum.
So scum feel an allegiance to the game at one moment but quickly flee in others?

No, I was just being mean because the moment I raised an interesting point that player disapeared meaning we don't even get an explanation for that behavior which annoyed me more than a little.

[PaltryExcuse]

I find it comical that you all think I'm scummy for not scumhunting, whereas a plethora of others have done even less.

That reasoning never fooled your mother, you expect it to work on us?

"But mom, everyone else is doing it."

Just to add on: giving us the people who you believe are not scumhunting with evidence would be a good idea. Right now all I see is deflection in this post.

No, I was just being mean because the moment I raised an interesting point that player disapeared meaning we don't even get an explanation for that behavior which annoyed me more than a little.

I agree, that sucks. So, I'm taking that post as more frustration than a point against Eleven's slot.

[Wulfy]

Wulfy, mind elaborating on how I was 'blindly following the heaviest wagon'? What do you mean by 'heaviest'?

Most votes, though I could have been mistaken.

You are indeed. The only vote on Torqez at the time of my vote was DDD's, according to the votecount five posts above my vote.

It wasn't random at all. I am following DDD's logic to see what comes of it. So far, nothing makes me want to stop following DDD's logic - except perhaps for muh, who I was previously voting, and is now lurking.

Initially I was feeling askance about Chinaman, but they seem to have improved their posting.

DDD's logic is validated by what exactly? Or rather, what convinces you to his way of thinking.

[el simo]

I have some concerns about DDD, seeing as he ignores half of my concerns I will bring them up here.

Post 2 he says we should be voting Torqez for his uselessness.

Post 6 he changes his reason and claims that Torqez is scum because he was going through a phase of boredom with the game and didn't replace out. Also claims that he was providing pre-emptive cover for future scum slips.

Also, people enjoy playing scum roles but they also enjoy playing power roles, you don't need a dataset to know that. You are ignoring half of the possibilities that your own logic brings up and just claiming that he is scum.

Post 8 says that there is also little other activity form him, other than defending himself. Fair enough, but I am pretty much ignoring the point because I just played a game with him where he was the cop and for the majority of the game all he did was defend himself from our accusations.

Post 10 says he is making excuses to provide cover for future scummy behaviour.

Post 11 claims that being bored with the game is an excuse that does work and then continues provides us with an completely different example to what Torqez is being accused of giving.

Post 16: What? How does that matter? If something is scummy it is scummy and if more than one person is doing it you should be grinding everyone about it, not just tunneling in on one person. If I killed a man and told the cops that it doesn't matter because all my friends are doing it they are sure as hell not just going to lock me up, they'd at the least ask me for evidence to support my case, not just say "that never worked on your mother."

TL;DR: Inconsistent voting reasons, ignores half of possibilities and claims scum, uses irrelivant examples and weak logic to ignore others: see tunnel vision.

Originally I was jokingly voting him to see how he reacted to a bit of pressure, I didn't read his push on Torqez as scummy nor indicative of him being town, it was just a case. But the more he posted the more my jaw dropped, at this point in time he is my top lynch advocate.

We are not exactly waiting for scummy behavior from Torq. He's admitted he's bored with Mafia, and if he's

that

bored, why enter a game? Why stay in a game? Why admit it in-thread? This is just too unusual to be pro-town.

Have you never gotten bored in the middle of a game and just stopped posting until you forced yourself to out of obligation to the mod? I find this a poor excuse to vote someone, in all the years and on all the forums I've been playing this game I have become bored with the game so many times and just stopped playing the game all together until I found some sort of motivation from some source to continue playing. I find it incredibly hard to believe that no one else has felt this, because everyone has, I don't see how you can't when you are playing a game based on reading giant great wall of china posts full of text and confusing quote pyramids.

There was 6 days between the time he /in'd for the game and the time he started playing, in which time he was being relentlessly attacked in another game with me, it would've been very easy for him to become bored of the game in this time.

eleven,

why are defending Torq so vehemently?

For me it is not about defending Torqez, it is about refuting DDD's unbelievably stupid case on Torqez.

Don't be mean DDD.

Question for you all: Do you think that when someone replaces out, there role is more likely town or scum? Do you think a town PR or a scum role would more likely keep someone in the game even if they had RL stuff come up and couldn't post as often as they'd like? This may be a theory question, but in my experience, I've never seen a scum player replace out. My games are very limited compared to some, but I think the odds are in the favor of someone replacing out being town vs scum. No free passes to eleven's replacement, but.....

Well I think there is simply too many variables to take into account to make any alignment accusations based on this, or use it to support an existing case mind you.

For some people it may very well be that they won't replace out because they enjoy the role, but it also may be that do replace out because they don't enjoy the role, or because of real life situations like tight deadlines or some sort of emergency or perhaps they just aren't arsed, regardless of role. Their are way too many possibilities to take into account and it comes down to the individual.

Saying that said role is more likely to replace out isn't fair on the individual.

Having said that, if you had a strong meta on said person and have read up on his other games and see that he has a tendency to replace out as said role, then perhaps you have a bit more strength to the claim, but still, imo, very weak and unreliable.

CallMeLiam makes a good case against JVW, I actually pushed a lynch on someone in my last game for pretty much the same reasons, but currently I am more concerned about DDD's play so my vote stays there until I find something more pressing or someone else either or really lol.

Also sorry for the messiness of this unchronological and seemingly random post, I read through the thread multiple times and found things to say at different places on different reads and so it's all out of order and what not which is highly unusual for me

[don_johnson]

I'm sure you think this post of yours is hunting for scum, but all it really is is OMGUS as stated before.

very town read up until this comment. if you're "sure" that torq thinks his post is actual scumhunting then you must think/know torq to be town. this reads as a genuine scumslip imo.

otherwise, not too much to comment on at the moment. i have three other suspects but feel no need to discuss the particulars at this time. i think torq and ddd are more likely than not both town.

vote: chinaman

i have been thinking this one over quite a bit, but i think it is best to claim my role right off the bat for a number of reasons. i realize there is detriment to it as well, but the idea of having a confirmed townie in lylo is something we should plan for. i know this throws a wrench in the works, but i have never had this role before, nor played with it in a game, and after thinking it through and weighing the pros and cons i have decided to just claim.

bulletproof townie.

discuss.

[Torqez]

Sorry havn't read up.

Mod: V/LA till 16th Dec

[Josh Lyman]

Sorry havn't read up.

Mod: V/LA till 16th Dec

[rhetorical]

Wondering if this has any connection with the post immediately previous.

[/rhetorical]

[julienvonwolfe]

Liam, how is my play bandwagony?

[CallMeLiam]

Sorry havn't read up.

Mod: V/LA till 16th Dec

[rhetorical]

Wondering if this has any connection with the post immediately previous.

[/rhetorical]

Rhetorical or not, using people's V\LA status against them is awful.

[CallMeLiam]

JVW:

Your vote on torquez came with very little reasoning and at a time when the only debate going was torq vs DDD, and subsequent posts have had nothing to add except for dealing with things that directly concern your own defense. Also this:

I am following DDD's logic to see what comes of it.

don_j:

It's very interesting that you've chosen now to claim, why not wait until after at least one night cycle has gone by, in hopes of actually using your ability? These pros and cons you weighed, I like to hear them too.

[don_johnson]

after thinking it through, i think this role is a bit like a miller in that it is a claim which will not likely be believed if elicited under pressure or at a later time in the game, especially if we don't lynch correctly and early giving scum a foothold on town decisions. also, by claiming early i open myself up to vig attempts, weak doctor protects, or cop investigations to prove my alignment and ability. like i said, i think its important that when given an oppurtunity to have a confirmed townie in lylo, we should most certainly do everything in our power to make it happen. main con is giving scum info on who not to target. other con would be if they have some sort of way to get around my ability. i am not revealing any more role info at this time, but i feel this part best to be out in the open.

if you read my town games you will see that i am almost always lynched. in this game, that could be disastrous.

[PaltryExcuse]

I'm sure you think this post of yours is hunting for scum, but all it really is is OMGUS as stated before.

very town read up until this comment. if you're "sure" that torq thinks his post is actual scumhunting then you must think/know torq to be town. this reads as a genuine scumslip imo.

It could also be that Chinaman sees him as scum, and therefore he sees it as a poor attempt at faking scumhunting.
Personally, I don't have a scum / town read on him, so in this case I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt.

i have been thinking this one over quite a bit, but i think it is best to claim my role right off the bat for a number of reasons. i realize there is detriment to it as well, but the idea of having a confirmed townie in lylo is something we should plan for. i know this throws a wrench in the works, but i have never had this role before, nor played with it in a game, and after thinking it through and weighing the pros and cons i have decided to just claim.

bulletproof townie.

discuss.

What are other typical roles that have NK immunity?

[Wulfy]

Hm... well don, that could be a serial killer type ploy and there is also the chance that your scum who conveniently won't be shot at or will be jujst before town is about to lose. Honestly, you're claim does little to affect my opinion of you and while town might make the same play, it doesn't help your position with player view points no matter your alignment. (I stop at that rather than circular logic because this form of thinking could be contrived to see him as scum, town, or null. I choose null since both scum and town could think this is a good move and so it means nothing despite whatever plans they have.)

Don, while I see your point of China's scum slip, I could use a little more. Also, I don't like how you say you have other suspects but don't mention them. I would at least like to know your reasoning on why they (specific or not) are less deserving of your vote than Chinaman.

[PaltryExcuse]

V/LA until late in the evening on the 14th / early morning of the 15th.