Open 186; Jungle Republic (Game Over)

[Scott Brosius]

Also he hasn't been annoying or distracting lately either. Yes if he kept up his original attitude, style, whatever you want to call it, I would be fine lynching him to remove the distraction. But he stopped doing that and made some cases, yet you are still pursuing him for playstyle? You are pushing a weak case and a case that may have been valid early in the day but not anymore.

Unvote
Vote: Memorable Raindrops

[dank]

Scott, what cases did saber make that you thought were valuable?

[Paradoxombie]

Just because someone comes up townie after doing something doesn't mean they didn't deserve to be lynched.


Saberworlf said earlier that he tries to avoid a meta. It looks more to me like he's trying to establish a meta, or rely on one. He's definitely not trying to mix up his meta like he said if he's acting the same in all his games and even from games before. I mean so far he's been constantly trying to manipulate our views by mentioning his behavior in the past and in other games. He tried to tell us this game would be just like the others. This behavior seems to blatantly contradict what he said.

[Lynx The Antithesis]

Also he hasn't been annoying or distracting lately either. Yes if he kept up his original attitude, style, whatever you want to call it,

I would be fine lynching him to remove the distraction

. But he stopped doing that and made some cases, yet you are still pursuing him for playstyle? You are pushing a weak case and a case that may have been valid early in the day but not anymore

Your case right here seems equally weak. You call out memorable raindrops for pursuing Saber based off playstyle, but you say you'd be fine with removing him for being a distraction. Isn't that essentially the same thing?

I'm sick of people excusing Saber's behavior and calling him town with nothing to show for it. Explain to me how you see him as town without claiming that no scum would play in this manner. That's certainly not true and should not give him a free pass.

And I'll ask again what else is there on BigMC of substance? Not one of you on the wagon has addressed this and I think the people on the BigMC wagon are just riding their votes. I'd like Budja, Lowell, and Saberwolf to provide me with actual points against BigMC or I'll continue to think in this manner. First one to step up and do it will look better in my eyes.

CKD, please refrain from answering this as you have been the biggest advocate of his lynch. I'd like to see what the rest of them have to say without your input.

[bigmc109]

There are two main reasons I'm supporting a saber lynch:

1. His play thus far has been incredibly anti-town. All his attacks so far have been OMGUS, and (I think at least) he's trying to WIFOM his way to not getting lynched by the "lynch me argument". Saying lynch me is scummy, bottom line, bet or no bet. There are times where townies say it when there is no hope for them, and times during the RVS, but other than these two instances, I've seen it almost always be scum using a WIFOM argument. How anyone can have the thought process of "he wants to be lynched, obv town" is beyond me.

2. No matter how he flips, an examination of D1 should easily lead us back to lynch scum. He is such an easy target that I can't imagine scum from the other faction (or both, if he is town) not slipping up while trying to get him lynched. I also can't imagine his buddy/buddies not slipping up trying to think of a way to protect him.

He's anti-town, he's scummy, and his lynch provides A LOT of information. What else can we ask for?

[curiouskarmadog]

Updating from page 6

If you were in my position now do you think you would support your lynch, saber?

absolutely. I'd lynch myself right now.

I've been anti-town, and you guys can't see any other reason to look otherwise, so by all accounts, it makes some sense to lynch me.

describe what exactly you feel is anti-town about your actions.

CKD, why would you claim Saber is town? What has he done so far this game that is even close to a townie play? Being Blatantly scummy does not clear him as town. Too scummy to be scum is illogical especially for Saber. Is there more to the BigMC case besides the missing of the vote?

where did I claim saber was anything? I think he is town. and I dont think i said "tto scummy to be scum"...what I said, was scum typically try to fly under the radar day 1...they coast. If some action comes across scummy, they adjust. Saber is not doing this. Can he be scum? of course. Do I think he is? No. DO I think other people look scummier? yes.

Scum: Bigmc and Lynx

It's easy to see, game over.

Make sure one of these two is lynched at some point when I'm gone.

why are they scum? Is there some link? Do scum typically link to each other in your view? Also if bigmac was OMGUS you for his post, could other think that that post is also OMGUS?

A day without posting does not qualify as being really quiet, CKD.

It was more like two days….but I guess you are right with this point. Several pages of posts had passed and it seemed like a lot longer. I retract my statement. More input from you would be nice. Like top two scum right now…and why.

someone tell me why scum would act like saber...they want to fit in..they want to go unnoticed..they want to look town....does it surprise me that saber doesnt seem to have any friends here? no. Pretty sure he is town....really it is WIFOM, but there are other people that are scummier if you look between the lines.

I don't agree with this logic. The bet has seemed to influence his playstyle over anything else, because he has to keep joining games he otherwise wouldn't. So he is probably acting this way with any role to get killed in his games faster. All we have to work with is straight odds, which are still pretty good.

But what do you mean other people are scummier, though? Do you think saberwolf at least looks somewhat scummy?

I dont really care if you agree with my logic. I think his play has developed a lot of conversation and information. I dont think that was his intention (so no town creds there). Is his play scummy? meh. It all depends on how you look at it. Given this set up, I really dont think he is scum. I think others look scummier. Meaning exactly what it says, I think other people look scummier than saber. I dont think his play is particular helpful, but people's quick bandwagons and justifications in reaction to it is insightful.

unvote;
Vote: Memorable Raindrops

He certainly had an opportunistic vote and has been absent from all other discussion.

LOL, you're cute. So do you agree with my logical or not?

Right now, I think Saberwolf is worth lynching. Why? He came into this game and made himself stand out. To me, personally, it was annoying. All of this bet stuff, all of this "lynch me, I've self-hammered before, look at my other games where I played this way and came up town, oh you guys will be sorry, wait no this is just a bet." So much meta, and honestly I am going to plop my vote there and feel GREAT. And then he just says "UNVOTE VOTE X, never mind, UNVOTE VOTE X Because the other wagon isn't gaining, YOU ARE MY OTHER PICK."

In addition: Considering there are two separate ""scum groups," why would Saberwolf say "game over, X and X are scum??"

really all I got out of this was, "I am voting saber because he is annoying"

so the key to avoiding your vote is to not be annoying? I cant really take anything from this statement, since you are new....but you cant play that newbie card all game.

Also, when you replay, please don’t reply in the quoted post…hard to read.

You told dank his play was distracting…what was it distracting from?

[curiouskarmadog]

bottom line, saber's play is a null tell at best

[curiouskarmadog]

There are two main reasons I'm supporting a saber lynch:

1. His play thus far has been incredibly anti-town. All his attacks so far have been OMGUS, and (I think at least) he's trying to WIFOM his way to not getting lynched by the "lynch me argument". Saying lynch me is scummy, bottom line, bet or no bet. There are times where townies say it when there is no hope for them, and times during the RVS, but other than these two instances, I've seen it almost always be scum using a WIFOM argument. How anyone can have the thought process of "he wants to be lynched, obv town" is beyond me.

2. No matter how he flips, an examination of D1 should easily lead us back to lynch scum. He is such an easy target that I can't imagine scum from the other faction (or both, if he is town) not slipping up while trying to get him lynched. I also can't imagine his buddy/buddies not slipping up trying to think of a way to protect him.

He's anti-town, he's scummy, and his lynch provides A LOT of information. What else can we ask for?

lol, I love the "no matter how he flips" discussion well before a lynch.

can more information be devloped from his lynch than yours?...for example, I have pretty much tunnelled in on your today...wouldnt that say something about me? You have been pushing hard on saber, if you flip scum, wouldnt that say something about saber? ANYONE can be reviewed after a lynch.

this arguement is silly.

also you never answered my question.

what is the difference between fishy and scummy?

you hear that? thats me knocking on your scummy door.

[bigmc109]

@ CKD: Fishy is something odd that gets your attention, but is a null tell. It just makes you pay more attention. For instance, if you're a cop and someone keeps touching their coat pocket, it's fishy.

Scummy is something that you look at as being a scumtell. It makes you think "this person is probably scum". For instance, if you're a cop and someone speeds away during a routine traffic stop, it's scummy.

And way to avoid my first point. My second point was meant to say he provides

more

information than any other lynch, as well as being a good choice from his play. I don't think it was that hard to miss.

I don't think the fact that you're tunneling me says everything, but I do think the fact that you're dead set on not lynching saber is. How is his play not scummy? You say it's not scummy, that it's a null tell, but you never say WHY.

[saberwolf]

Just because someone comes up townie after doing something doesn't mean they didn't deserve to be lynched.


Saberworlf said earlier that he tries to avoid a meta. It looks more to me like he's trying to establish a meta, or rely on one. He's definitely not trying to mix up his meta like he said if he's acting the same in all his games and even from games before. I mean so far he's been constantly trying to manipulate our views by mentioning his behavior in the past and in other games. He tried to tell us this game would be just like the others. This behavior seems to blatantly contradict what he said.

We have one smart person in the group! Well Done!

Yeah, I don't like having a meta, but this playstyle doesn't determine my alignment, just my attitude towards the game. Constantly switching it up and creating WIFOM over it allows my meta to be smokescreened. So I hope that none of you use it to clear me as town. I simply mention it in every game so that it isn't predictable in selectivity.

[curiouskarmadog]

I don't think the fact that you're tunneling me says everything, but I do think the fact that you're dead set on not lynching saber is. How is his play not scummy? You say it's not scummy, that it's a null tell, but you never say WHY.

what does it say? if he flips scum, was I defending a buddy or completely wrong? if he flips town, was I trying to buy town points as scum or have a good scum dar?? Whatever his flip you can make it whatever you want.

are you sure i said it wasnt scummy? or did I say scum wouldnt act that way? I have told you what I think scum are doing today in this particular game...repeat to me what that is....then tell if saber's play fits that mold.

please dont put words in my mouth.

[saberwolf]

CKD: I have been very lax in scumhunting as well as unhelpful during the beginning of the game, which would make me a liability and not worth keeping around if I continue this manner. This is why I would support a Saber lynch. TBH, nothing I have done is scummy, it's just been annoying and unhelpful, there's a big difference.

MC: I am not so sure you would get as much info from my lynch as you think. Best case scenario: I flip scum and you attack CKD for defending me. However, nobody else would be suspect due to the fact that it's an almost unanimous decision that I'm scummy. If I flip town, CKD would be suspect of town cred fishing, and everyone else falls in the boat of "Oh, I was wrong, but he was unhelpful, therefore I'm not at fault."

The reason I said A and B are scum was to generate discussion. Obviously there are more than two scum, but there are two werewolves, and I wouldn't put it past them to be buddies. Kill the werewolves, kill the nights. Lynx seems very focused on protecting MC, and I don't see that kind of attitude towards any of the other players, so I'm assuming Lynx is a werewolf. That would also place MC in the werewolf category. I would place MR in the mafia group, for overall lurking and not being very helpful, along with a badly placed vote with no good reasoning. I'm still Deciding on who I think is town from the rest.

[Budja]

BigMC,
vote on Saber looks opportunistic.
I disliked BMC's "missing" of MR votes.

Although, BMC's recent activity I like and MR has taken a nose-dive since my last read so...

unvote, vote MR

(Wagon switch )
I like the recent points raised against him. The thing that stands out to me is the weak reasons for attacking Saber (anti-town not scummy) which make me thing MR's vote was opportunistic.

[Memorable Raindrops]

BigMC,
vote on Saber looks opportunistic.
I disliked BMC's "missing" of MR votes.

Although, BMC's recent activity I like and MR has taken a nose-dive since my last read so...

unvote, vote MR

(Wagon switch )
I like the recent points raised against him. The thing that stands out to me is the weak reasons for attacking Saber (anti-town not scummy)

which make me thing MR's vote was opportunistic

.

I'm confused. If I'm opportunistic, I take advantage of a situation (in this case it is the others that also support a Saber lynch). So what is wrong with that? I'm happy with my vote on Saber because I think he is imo more likely to turn up mafia/werewolf than anyone else is (for a D1 lynch).

Maybe I have "weak reasoning", but that does not change the feeling and opinion I have about Saber from what I've read.

[saberwolf]

You actually admit to taking advantage of a situation? I'd hate to have you in lylo, you'd vote for the first person to get a vote, just because it isn't for you.

unvote; vote: MR

[curiouskarmadog]

MR there was questions directed to you in my 205 post, please respond.

[dank]

The reason I said A and B are scum was to generate discussion. Obviously there are more than two scum, but there are two werewolves, and I wouldn't put it past them to be buddies. Kill the werewolves, kill the nights. Lynx seems very focused on protecting MC, and I don't see that kind of attitude towards any of the other players, so I'm assuming Lynx is a werewolf. That would also place MC in the werewolf category. I would place MR in the mafia group, for overall lurking and not being very helpful, along with a badly placed vote with no good reasoning. I'm still Deciding on who I think is town from the rest.

If this is the reasoning those not voting saber say he's contributed lately that make his lynch unwarranted, then there is no reason why saber has not been lynched yet. His input in this game has been close to useless, and he is once again hopping on a growing wagon to spread the attention away from him.

I'm having a very hard time seeing an MR lynch over Saber at this point- MR seems like a new player tripping up a bit. The above post has Saber taking advantage (oh, the irony!) of a way MR worded something, that somehow makes him lynchworthy, which i find ridiculous.

Saber- what do you think MR just admitted to that makes him worth a vote?

[Budja]

Yeah, after that last post, I don't think a Saber lynch would be bad.

The good thing about this setup is regardless of Saber alignment, there are bound to be opportunistic wolf/scum on his wagon.

So yeah, MR or Saber.

[saberwolf]

The reason I said A and B are scum was to generate discussion. Obviously there are more than two scum, but there are two werewolves, and I wouldn't put it past them to be buddies. Kill the werewolves, kill the nights. Lynx seems very focused on protecting MC, and I don't see that kind of attitude towards any of the other players, so I'm assuming Lynx is a werewolf. That would also place MC in the werewolf category. I would place MR in the mafia group, for overall lurking and not being very helpful, along with a badly placed vote with no good reasoning. I'm still Deciding on who I think is town from the rest.

If this is the reasoning those not voting saber say he's contributed lately that make his lynch unwarranted, then there is no reason why saber has not been lynched yet. His input in this game has been close to useless, and he is once again hopping on a growing wagon to spread the attention away from him.

I'm having a very hard time seeing an MR lynch over Saber at this point- MR seems like a new player tripping up a bit. The above post has Saber taking advantage (oh, the irony!) of a way MR worded something, that somehow makes him lynchworthy, which i find ridiculous.

Saber- what do you think MR just admitted to that makes him worth a vote?

Do you ever consider maybe that it makes a good trap for scum, seeing who pulls for the quicklynch or hammer? Doesn't matter now though, scum will be more cautious about approaching this BW.

So if someone trips up, we excuse them, but what exactly am I doing that makes excusing not an option? Please enlighten me.

[dank]

Saber- what do you think MR just admitted to that makes him worth a vote?

[dank]

And you're not tripping up, you've made it very clear that your smokescreen is intentional. I'm voting you because i think that smokescreen is scummy, because I think you have not contributed much of anything useful to this game (your cases are garbage), and are jumping on any wagon that seems to build up steam and take attention away from you.

There's no reason in my mind why you should not be lynched today.

[saberwolf]

Saber- what do you think MR just admitted to that makes him worth a vote?

taking advantage of situations

I realise my vote is therefore ironic.

[ZEEnon]

Vote Count:

saberwolf:

Memorable Raindrops, bigmc109, Paradoxombie, dank, Lynx The Antithesis, hewitt

Memorable Raindrops:

GinzkeyPlatz, Scott Brosius, Budja, saberwolf

bigmc109:

curiouskarmadog, Lowell

Not Voting:

No one

With 12 players alive, it takes 7 to lynch.
Deadline: December 23rd, 2009 at approximately 10 p.m.

[Lynx The Antithesis]

I find it funny that Saber labels me as "protective" of BigMC for asking them to show me their case on him. Instead, Saber fails yet again to provide such points against BigMc. Then, he goes on to make one of the more opportunistic votes in this game so far. I think Saber realized that the BigMc wagon was losing steam so he tried to find an easier candidate in MR.

Budja as well failed his view on the BigMc case. It's fairly strange that neither of them answered and instead both switched to MR. Either Budja's not reading my posts or he intentionally skipped over it.

The same does not go for Saber because in my response to his labeling me as scum I asked him to provide the case as well. He never did so and it's clear his vote was very poor. He was merely hopping on the second largest wagon that could possibly take attention away from himself.

Can we please just lynch Saber already?

[saberwolf]

I find it funny that Saber labels me as "protective" of BigMC for asking them to show me their case on him. Instead, Saber fails yet again to provide such points against BigMc. Then, he goes on to make one of the more opportunistic votes in this game so far. I think Saber realized that the BigMc wagon was losing steam so he tried to find an easier candidate in MR.

Budja as well failed his view on the BigMc case. It's fairly strange that neither of them answered and instead both switched to MR. Either Budja's not reading my posts or he intentionally skipped over it.

The same does not go for Saber because in my response to his labeling me as scum I asked him to provide the case as well. He never did so and it's clear his vote was very poor. He was merely hopping on the second largest wagon that could possibly take attention away from himself.

Can we please just lynch Saber already?

*shrugs*

What can I say? I'm in a very lazy and ignorant mood for this game.

I'll get around to it...