Newbie 869 - Game over

[totallynotmafia]

Thanks, lol

Okay, I didn't realise it would take that long (probably should have left it til morning) but I've read through the entire thread and jotted down some notes.

Firstly, while I've worked out most of the other terms, I'm still not sure what FoS, OMGUS, and WIFOM mean, could somebody please fill me in. I'm guessing that L-1 means that the person only needs one more vote to be lynched, and the person who does this is the hammer.

Secondly, while reading through the thread I couldn't help getting the feeling, time and again, that Deer and Jee are both scum and are working together. I know this has been a suspicion of many people but I actually thought this before Elibereth first alluded to it with th whole "bussing" fiasco. I agree with him, if you go back it's quite clear that Jee made a vote for Deer out of the blue without any explanation, and if you notice that this was after Jee jumped on Deer's vote for Twilight in the random voting stage it can be seen that Jee was then trying to distance himself from his partner-in-crime. When asked about this Jee then said "I have my reasons", and then when he was told this was too vague Jee's reasons for voting Deer were all pretty weak and seemed as if they were concocted afterwards.

Also, still on Jee, he didn't want to answer DLA's three questions for everybody, perhaps because he thought it would give away that he is scum. Then, when Ellie pressed him to answer them he did, and to the question: What role do you prefer playing?
he answered: "doesn't matter. both of them make you work just as hard".
This to me seems like he is trying hard not to give away anything by saying both, afterall, there are more than just two roles, why was he thinking just town and mafia?

Back to Deer, he jumped on the DLA bandwagon with what seemed to me pretty weak reasoning when was a few off being lynched. Also he over-defended his first vote on the first page after it was bandwaggoned, which was supposed to be random anyway.

Also I found that the pair's discussion on the night kill was a bit dubious.

Anyway, I hope I'm not completely wrong and I'm not just affected by tunnel vision....if I am I'm sorry to the both of you but as I read through the thread I just couldn't help getting this feeling. I think that alternatively Ellie could be the scum with Deer, as DLA's post about the two before he was Lynched made a lot of sense, and others are pretty adamant that he is scum.

Other than that I can't seem to see anyone else who would be obviously scum. I'm guessing we're pretty much screwed if we don't lynch a scum this turn so my vote is for Deer. Now I really should to go to bed, I encourage people to go back and look at those first few pages to see what I mean.

Vote: Deer

[SensFan]

Firstly, while I've worked out most of the other terms, I'm still not sure what FoS, OMGUS, and WIFOM mean, could somebody please fill me in.

FoS means "Finger of Suspicion", if you want to formally announce your suspicions of someone that you're not voting. My personal belief (and this is not the site belief, just me) is that FoS is basically useless, since people can read my posts and see for themselves who I'm suspicious of. The only exception would be LyLo, when voting is dangerous.
OMGUS is literally "Oh My God! You Suck!" It's a throwback to chat mafia, when if someone voted for you in the random stage, your lighthearted reaction might be "OMG! You suck! Vote: XXX". In the random stage, nothing wrong with OMGUS. It only becomes a problem if past that stage someone votes someone else for the sole reason they're being voted by that person.
WIFOM is "Wine In Front Of Me", referencing a scene in The Princess Bride. Basically, it's if I say something like "Why would I kill Bob overnight, when he thought I was Town?", since quite clearly being able to make that argument is alone a reason why I might have killed Bob.

---

As for the importance of today's lynch; in a Newb Game, the Town is only allowed 2 mislynches (assuming no amazing Doc). We've used one of them, so we now have 3 lynches to hit 2 Scum. If we mislynch today, the game isn't over, but we then need to lynch correctly twice in a row. Does that make some sense?

[totallynotmafia]

Cool, thanks for that, yeah it all makes sense. Except what do you mean by LyLo?

[SensFan]

LYnch or LOse.

If the Scum ever make up half the Town, they win. So if we're in a scenario with 2 Scum and 5 people alive, we lose if we don't lynch correctly, since after a lynch and a nightkill, Scum outnumber us.

In a case like that (let's assume 2 Scum, 3 Town), there are only 3 votes needed to lynch, so it becomes incredibly risky to vote for someone early in the day; if both Scum come online, they can each pile on and hammer, thus ending the day, and securing the win.

[totallynotmafia]

Ok, thanks again. I really can't see myself changing my vote unless someone provides a pretty good argument to convince me otherwise. Everyone other than who I've mentioned seem to be genuinely trying to get to the bottom of things...of course that could just mean that they're good at this game, but seeing as this is my first time playing I think it would be stupid of me not to go with my instincts.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

The 2nd post of the game has a list of Helpful Links. There is a list to Commonly Used Abbreviations in it.

Official Vote Count

Ellibereth - 1 (SensFan)

SensFan - 1 (Mr Finch)
Deer - 1 (totallynotmafia)

Not Voting - 4 (Deer, Ellibereth, jee, Tuberkulos)

4 to Lynch.

Deadline

is the end of Thursday, December 24.

[jee]

Anyway, I hope I'm not completely wrong and I'm not just affected by tunnel vision....if I am I'm sorry to the both of you but as I read through the thread I just couldn't help getting this feeling.

No need to apologize. This whole game is full of accusations: right and wrong.

@Mr.Finch:
http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Bussing

Bussing is the act of distancing yourself from your partners, usually by helping to lynch them.

Bussing and distancing go hand in hand.

As for TNM's (totally not mafia) attack, its kind of hard to defend against an accusation from 'feeling'. So if there are some specific things, I can defend those.




So how about everyone posting their top two suspects?
Ill go first. Deer and Elliberth.

[totallynotmafia]

Well I thought I did give reasons in my post. The main thing was your out-of-the-blue vote for Deer without any explanation which seemed like a way of you and him pretending not to be working together. Then when someone asked you for reasons, I thought they were pretty weak and just an afterthought when you were forced to explain yourself. Here they are:

I was first checking to see a reaction, looking for a scummy reaction.

This early in the game we don't have much to go on, and I looked at this post:

In regards to the vote, I'm sticking with what jee said. I don't FOS twilight for any reason at all (yet ) so there's no need to keep the vote. We've learned some valuable things, I think.

I thought it may be some sort of buddying. So I decided to expand with that and look for other things he has done. SO PBPA I suppose...

#1

Not really a fan of random voting, but...

vote: RPG*Twilight

because I don't like the twilight series

This could totally be his opinion... but he seems to point out that he isn't a fan of RVS. Saw it maybe as planting seeds in minds to associate him with town because he doesn't like randomly voting for someone.

#2

So where do these random votes take us?

Empty post.

#3,4,5
Longer, defending himself on being innocent. I saw this as over defending himself. I don't think really anyone was is accusing him.. after all, he placed the first vote, what could someone honestly be worried with?

#6
The post above. It struck me as buddying. His #4 also had a little buddying in it, defending my 2nd vote saying it was random.

It was enough at this point in the game for me to put a vote on him.

So one of your reasons to vote him was because he was buddying. Well, here's the weird part:

jee, I'm confused on who you think I'm "buddying" with.

then:

me

wtf? Your reason for voting for Deer was because he was buddying with you?

Well then that makes no sense. Seriously, there seems to be nothing I can do that you will not call scummy. I place a random vote, that's "planting seeds in the town's mind." I try to defend myself against what I thought was an accusation from Mr. Finch, then "oh, that's overdefending." I try to clear up a misquotation, that's "buddying." Are you going to call this "overdefending?" Because that's honestly bullshit. I haven't had much experience with these forum mafia games, but I was acting as a normal human being would act in the situations I was put under. Your illogical reasons are why I'm voting you right now.

Vote: jee

And the oscar goes to...

Well actually that was my first impression of this post, but now I'm not 100% sure it was an act. I think I need to hear from Deer to be totally clear...I fear.

Also Jee, by just stating who your two main suspects are without giving any reasons and asking for everyone elses makes me think that you are looking for a target for the night kill, ie someone who is suss of you or the other mafia. Could you give reasons as to why Deer and Ellie are your two main suspects?

[Deer]

Back to Deer, he jumped on the DLA bandwagon with what seemed to me pretty weak reasoning when was a few off being lynched.

Not sure I would call that pretty weak reasoning. DLA, as a townie, played a pretty terrible game - he attacked Sens and gave no reasoning to back it up, even when prodded for it multiple times. You can't argue that that is not scummy; therefore, I don't know why that is pretty weak reasoning.

Also he over-defended his first vote on the first page after it was bandwaggoned, which was supposed to be random anyway.

That's not true. DLA made this post:

Note to self: Of Deer, jee, Ellibereth, 1-2 is most likely scum. In this case, the latter is the highest suspect.

and I felt I needed to defend myself against it. Apparently I have a big problem with what you call overdefending. I think that's just my style of play - if I get attacked, I'm not just going to ignore it. I'm going to give my rationale for why that attack is wrong.

DLA's post about the two before he was Lynched made a lot of sense, and others are pretty adamant that he is scum.

DLA's post before he was lynched made no sense at all, at least in reference to me. I believe post 177 explains that pretty well - I don't want to quote it and make a huge wall of text.

And the oscar goes to...

I explained my feelings on overdefending earlier. It's just the way I play - maybe the fact that I get too into my arguments is a bad thing. It is my first game, after all.


Finally:

@Sens: I thought bussing was the act of distancing yourself from your scumbuddies by placing a vote on them. If that's wrong please tell me, but if that is right, I think you can do that whenever you want.

[SensFan]

Finally:

@Sens: I thought bussing was the act of distancing yourself from your scumbuddies by placing a vote on them. If that's wrong please tell me, but if that is right, I think you can do that whenever you want.

What you've described is just that, distancing.
Bussing is the final (and biggest) act of distancing, pushing a scumbuddy so hard that you contribute to their lynch.

[jee]

http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Bussing

Bussing is the act of distancing yourself from your partners, usually by helping to lynch them.

Bussing and distancing go hand in hand.

It doesn't have to lead to lynch.

[jee]

Well I thought I did give reasons in my post. The main thing was your out-of-the-blue vote for Deer without any explanation which seemed like a way of you and him pretending not to be working together. Then when someone asked you for reasons, I thought they were pretty weak and just an afterthought when you were forced to explain yourself. Here they are:

I have already stated whyI did the vote without reason. I thought his playing was weird and wanted to see if I could stir it up. Maybe it was a bad choice to say 'I have my reasons' rather than 'I will explain in a little'. It was to get a reaction.. Thats all.

Second:

So one of your reasons to vote him was because he was buddying. Well, here's the weird part:

jee, I'm confused on who you think I'm "buddying" with.

then:

me

wtf? Your reason for voting for Deer was because he was buddying with you?

Yes, buddying with me. Its a strategy used by mafia to show that they are working together with someone. When that someone is lynched and turns town, they are able to refer to the buddying in order to defend. The mafia member won't ever buddy up with their mafia partner... that would be dumb on their part

[Ellibereth]

TNM:

What is the line between over defending and defending.
Why are you voting for deer over jee.
What do you think of RPG's day 1 play.

[totallynotmafia]

Well overdefending I guess is defending something that you really shouldn't have to defend, such as a random vote, which Deer did. Although looking back, it wasn't as bad as I originally thought it was.

I voted for Deer over Jee because DLA highlighted in his last post that both you and him have voted together a lot, and so if the scum pair is either Jee-Deer or Deer-you then voting for Deer would be the safest option, though I must say I'm much more suspicious of Jee. I think Deer defended my accusations fairly well and now I'm starting to think I might just be tunnelling him because of Jee.

I think RPG is obviously a good player and must have played before as he/she handled your bandwagonning of him/her pretty well, whereas others might have freaked out. I think RPG is part of the reason I have suspected Jee as well, because taking over RPG has almost given me a slight advantage as I have another person's opinions that I know are unbiased and RPG was FoS of Jee during day 1, before that whole DLA fiasco. I think if mafia win they can certainly thank DLA!

Anyway, now I'm confused...this is much harder than I thought. It's hard too because we're all new, and so the things that I could be suspecting people of as scum might just be because they don't realise that even though you're a townie people will suspect you as scum if you don't do certain things. Then again, these could be newbie mistakes while they're mafia. I don't think I can think like this though otherwise it's just gonna add another level of paranoia to the game, so with that in mind:

Unvote, Vote: Jee

[Ellibereth]

Would you agree that RPG's actions carry over in determining your alignment?

[totallynotmafia]

Yeah of course, we both have the same alignment afterall. I'm glad I replaced someone who didn't really have any suspicion on them, it would be great if I was mafia.

[Ellibereth]

RPG reacting to the wagon on him:

#4
"Hammer without looking like you're hammering" is complete crap. Places me in a "a deep hole" for no reason. Thinking he even has to defend to something in the first place. He's trying to build me up to be an easy lynch target over the next few posts too.

#7
Clearly doesn't understand that mafia would have been idiotic to hammer there. Makes an unsound assumption that there must be a scum on the wagon.
Also, Random votes aren't really supposed to be random...

His reaction was ridiculous. He tries to build a case out of nothing on me.

Then he attacks jee followed by DLA. Always going after the easy targets.
Then in #12 he stars going on about keeping an open mind, when he's clearly not. The context of the post is also ridiculous because there should have been no hesititation if he thought DLA was just distracting him.

Day 2 comes and he puts up #17

This makes no sense. EVERYONE got on DLA, that's what makes this difficult. And DLA was our BWCS, given that he offered us nothing when SensFan had to repeatedly ask what he was talking about. DLA was making no sense to anyone, so it's really a null-tell. I think it's more the fact I think scum took advantage of this.

He sure did.

He didnt do any of his part, that I understand, but now that I re-read this with new information, the word "hypocritical" "demanded" "most suspicious" "hounded" seems like a plea to hound DLA.

How in the world do those sound like a plea? I have no idea.

And another thing, if she said she "assumed" she knew the two scum. Why'd she vote for DLA at all if she wanted to help the town? She said a Deer and Jee connection is most likely. Voted for both of them, then unvoted and got a townie. Hmmm.

I would say to myself: "Suppose Deer and jee are the scum, would their actions support this assumption." And now I'm getting called to doubt for voting DLA when earlier he himself said "it's a null-tell". (Two quotes up).

For visual proof. She could have very eaisly thrown two names into that hat. (Or maybe one is, and then instead of her name, threw in another... the possibilities)

I'm not going to vote right now, as it's too early to really determine why the NK happened, and the such.

How the heck does throwing names in a hat have to do with anything? And what visual proof? This makes absolutely no sense.
He clearly suspects me but doesn't place a vote because of "not knowing why the NK happened". Scum can manipulate the NK, you probably won't know for a while.

He's been trying to make cases out of nothing and shows a hesitancy to back up his words with a vote. All he's really does is restate the most obvious things.

I'll get to TNM's posts later, but for now

Vote: TNM

[totallynotmafia]

Ooh my first vote, how exciting!

Well considering that I can't really defend RPG's comments except to say that I know that he (I'll assume RPG's a he) was town, that seems like a very calculated scum attack on me. First you ask if his actions carry over in determning my allignment (which is obvious, did you really need to ask this?) as the setup and then you go back and drag up things he has previously said, knowing that I can't defend them. Why didn't you bring this up back when he first said them?

Well I intend to at least try and defend your accusations on RPG as it seems like you're just clutching at straws.

Firstly, even though I didn't think it made you scum because surely mafia wouldn't be that stupid, he has every right to question the motives of someone who bandwagons on day one. His main problem was that you said "WAAAAAGOOOOOON" implying that you were trying to get other people to jump on too.

Also how can you say that by attacking Jee and DLA those are easy targets? Other people have been suspicious of them too, including you! Were you attacking easy targets as well?

Then you said:

Day 2 comes and he puts up #17

RPG wrote:

This makes no sense. EVERYONE got on DLA, that's what makes this difficult. And DLA was our BWCS, given that he offered us nothing when SensFan had to repeatedly ask what he was talking about. DLA was making no sense to anyone, so it's really a null-tell. I think it's more the fact I think scum took advantage of this.


He sure did.

Well if you look at the actual quote in context...

Mr. Finch wrote:
My other candidate right now is SensFan. He started on DLA (admittedly DLA did not help himself at all) and never let up until he got what he wanted when we lynched a townie.


This makes no sense. EVERYONE got on DLA, that's what makes this difficult. And DLA was our BWCS, given that he offered us nothing when SensFan had to repeatedly ask what he was talking about. DLA was making no sense to anyone, so it's really a null-tell. I think it's more the fact I think scum took advantage of this.

...you'll see that RPG was actually defending Sens, and pointing out that everyone is guilty of voting for DLA, even himself.

Quote:

He didnt do any of his part, that I understand, but now that I re-read this with new information, the word "hypocritical" "demanded" "most suspicious" "hounded" seems like a plea to hound DLA.


How in the world do those sound like a plea? I have no idea

I'm guessing that RPG was getting at the fact that they are emotional words, used to stir people up into doing something, like a football coach would use at half-time or Mel Gibson would in Braveheart.

I don't really understand your response to the third quote, but it is true that you have gone off your suspicions of Jee and Deer with a vote for DLA and now a vote for me. Can you tell me where they stand with you now?

Lastly you say that he was trying to make cases out of nothing, which is what you seem to be doing here. I'm guessing that RPG was holding off on voting in order to prevent a mis-lynch, particularly how he has already seen that people aren't afraid to bandwagon.

My suspicions of you before were mainly only because other people had consistently suspected you, but after this I have to say:

FoS: Ellibereth

I don't really see the point of the fos thing but the thing that's not making me change my vote to you yet is because if you ARE mafia, I don't understand why you would go after me when I am suspicious of your two main suspects all along, you could easily sit back and vote for them too while being completely consistent. That is unless one of them really is your scum-buddy, and the whole thing was just an act and you distancing yourself or even "bussing", which you apparently know all about.

[jee]

Elli, how can you honestly attack TNM for things RPG said. Although the actions of both players should be similar because they are playing the same role, he has no way of defending them.

Reasons for my top two suspects:
Deer: I had a gut feeling since the beginning on how he was acting. I pointed it out, ad was attacked for it. But now it seems that many more people see Deer as a suspect.

Elli: Sens pointed out Elli's 'slip' early in the game which kind of got me thinking about the possibilty of him being scum. After looking at the way he was reacting to what people said, he jumped up higher on my suspect list.

As a person who played mafia in my first game, I kind of know how I acted in certain situations so I have been looking and trying to pick up those same tells from others in this game. No one else is really screaming out their guiltiness and that is why those are my top 2.

[totallynotmafia]

Well that helps to alleviate some of my suspicion of you, seeing as that now you are giving reasons for your suspects. I was going to ask you what you consider the tells to be, but if you are town then I suppose the mafia can use that information to their advantage.

I don't know what it is, but there's something that I can't quite put my finger on surrounding the relationship between Finch, Ellie and SensFan.

I have no idea about Tuberkulos. I think it would help the town if everybody posted more, though I can understand people have things to do. I'm lucky we are on summer holidays here in Australia.

[Mr Finch]

I'm sorry, relationship between me, Elli and Sens? What relationship?

You think Elli is scum, I think Sens is scum and I am town.

There can't be a relationship as there are only two scum in this game.

[Ellibereth]

Elli, how can you honestly attack TNM for things RPG said. Although the actions of both players should be similar because they are playing the same role, he has no way of defending them.

I reread RPG and found him scummy.
Sure TNM really can't defend it yet, but the record of scumminess is still on him.

I'm at school right now, more later.

[Ellibereth]

Well considering that I can't really defend RPG's comments except to say that I know that he (I'll assume RPG's a he) was town, that seems like a very calculated scum attack on me. First you ask if his actions carry over in determning my allignment (which is obvious, did you really need to ask this?) as the setup and then you go back and drag up things he has previously said, knowing that I can't defend them. Why didn't you bring this up back when he first said them?

Meh. I reread RPG’s day one and found it scummy. I asked you first because I didn’t want any crap with what he did doesn’t carry over. I didn’t look at his posts carefully until now.

Firstly, even though I didn't think it made you scum because surely mafia wouldn't be that stupid, he has every right to question the motives of someone who bandwagons on day one. His main problem was that you said "WAAAAAGOOOOOON" implying that you were trying to get other people to jump on too.

Nowhere does he mention that his main problem was with my wagon shout: look what he writes:

So why did you put up a vote for someone in the first place if all you wanted to do was wagon? Or by the sounds of it, hammer without looking like youre hammering.

It's interesting how quick you did this in RvS, still. And given this quote, you sure are putting yourself in a deep hole.

So i'm at L-2, what do I have to defend? an RvS? You actually have more to defend by wagoning then by me being at L-2... and you're not being very convincing. So where's the smart town play in that? Either way you look at it, it looks like you're covering up scum at the very least.

Nowhere do I sound like I want to hammer without looking like I’m hammering. That was already BS.
Nothing bad can come out of an L-2 in RVS. He attempts to make it look a huge scumtell by saying that I’m in “ a deep hole”.
If you want over-defensiveness coupled with logical holes, it was clearly his reaction to the BW.

Also how can you say that by attacking Jee and DLA those are easy targets? Other people have been suspicious of them too, including you! Were you attacking easy targets as well?

I admit I’m guilty of going after easy targets too. Doesn’t mean it’s not bad. Day 1 was basically almost a giant policy lynch of DLA in the end.

Well if you look at the actual quote in context... ...you'll see that RPG was actually defending Sens, and pointing out that everyone is guilty of voting for DLA, even himself.

He clearly said it was a null tell. Then he implied suspicion on me for voting DLA.

Lastly you say that he was trying to make cases out of nothing, which is what you seem to be doing here. I'm guessing that RPG was holding off on voting in order to prevent a mis-lynch, particularly how he has already seen that people aren't afraid to bandwagon.

You really think that? He was scared one vote at the beginning of day 2 would immediately lead to a mislynch? You shouldn’t be afraid to bandwagon.

My suspicions of you before were mainly only because other people had consistently suspected you

Not a good reason at all.

I don't really see the point of the fos thing but the thing that's not making me change my vote to you yet is because if you ARE mafia, I don't understand why you would go after me when I am suspicious of your two main suspects all along, you could easily sit back and vote for them too while being completely consistent. That is unless one of them really is your scum-buddy, and the whole thing was just an act and you distancing yourself or even "bussing", which you apparently know all about.

Oh you suspect me, but you vote won’t for me. Why would I go after you, you ask? No duh. I think you’re scum. If you think I’m scummier then jee you should go ahead and vote. Your hesitancy is making me dislike your position even more, especially after how fast you changed your vote from Deer to jee.

[Ellibereth]

In post 250 by TNM:
It’s funny isn’t it? He goes on about how his thinking process was similar to mine for a while and all of the send says I could be scum just because everyone says so. Scummy.

this:

The fact is that I think Sens is scummy in all games I play with him.

and this:

2. The onyl relevant meta is that in every single game (3? 4?) I have played with DLA, he has been convinced I am Scum, and tunnelled on me pretty much to the exclusion of anyone else. Every time I've been Town.

seem to suggest you have some sort of vendetta against Sens. Now, thinking he's scummy is fine (although I don't right now), but you really have not explained yourself at all, and act like we're idiots for not understanding why you don't like him. Posting the way you are right now is not making you look good. I wasn't going to vote you before, but because you keep acting this way:

unvote, vote: DarkLightA

The above quotes is Deer’s. Show me how his reasoning is weak.
Show me where the night kill convo was dubious.
The post may look long, but most of it is not real content at all.

Post 263 next:

Well overdefending I guess is defending something that you really shouldn't have to defend, such as a random vote, which Deer did.

Ding ding ding! Guess what RPG did too!

I think Deer defended my accusations fairly well and now I'm starting to think I might just be tunnelling him because of Jee.

How the heck do you tunnel on someone because of someone else?

Have to go now, but I would also like to draw everyone’s attention to RPG and deer’s almost complete lack of interaction day 1.

[Deer]

Have to go now, but I would also like to draw everyone’s attention to RPG and deer’s almost complete lack of interaction day 1.

Your point? He really didn't say much.