Mini 880 - Mini Quick and Dirty - Game Over


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Post Post #775 (ISO) » Wed Dec 16, 2009 8:41 am

Post by Papa Zito »

Scien wrote:Actually more to the point, trying to throw suspicion on someone based on them being the only person claiming a role is silly.
The only one, with a guilty to boot. What a lucky town we are.
Scien wrote:You think that ignoring what in townie shoes would be a fake guilty, that it is suspicious that there is only one claim?
What's this in English?
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Post Post #776 (ISO) » Wed Dec 16, 2009 8:42 am

Post by crypto »

Zorblag
, what is your role's official name (PM)?

Okay. Anally reminding everyone not to confirm/challenge the validity of PZ's role. Please and thank you.

PZ
, I'm pretty sure there are some basic setups out there with one or two power roles that the mod could punch in at the last minute. It doesn't have to be all vanilla. :roll:
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Post Post #777 (ISO) » Wed Dec 16, 2009 8:45 am

Post by Scien »

PapaZ wrote:The only one, with a guilty to boot. What a lucky town we are.
Meh, the guilty is a side point, I agree. But why do you believe that a single person claiming is suspicious in its own right? You can't really point to your speculation on setup for the answer.
PapaZ wrote:What's this in English?
Lol, that did suck. Ignore the guilty. Do you think it is suspicious that there is only a single person claiming? You seem to.

I guess hypothetically, if he claimed two results, and neither was a provable lie, would you still think that the fact that he is the only one claiming fishy?
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Post Post #778 (ISO) » Wed Dec 16, 2009 8:55 am

Post by Papa Zito »

Scien wrote:
PapaZ wrote:The only one, with a guilty to boot. What a lucky town we are.
Meh, the guilty is a side point, I agree. But why do you believe that a single person claiming is suspicious in its own right? You can't really point to your speculation on setup for the answer.
Dude, from where I'm sitting the only one to claim non-VT is scum. That's all I have for you. I can keep giving you the same answer over and over again but it's not going to get us anywhere.
Scien wrote:Lol, that did suck. Ignore the guilty. Do you think it is suspicious that there is only a single person claiming? You seem to.

I guess hypothetically, if he claimed two results, and neither was a provable lie, would you still think that the fact that he is the only one claiming fishy?
You're forgetting that one of his results is a track on a vanilla townie. I
know
he's lying Scien, I don't have to speculate. This is basically the same stunt you pulled in that other game except with a Tracker twist. It is a provable lie, and normally I'd be all about trading my VT ass for a scum lynch, but the only reason for them to do this is if mislynching me wins them the game.
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Post Post #779 (ISO) » Wed Dec 16, 2009 8:57 am

Post by charlatan »

Scien wrote:
Charlatan wrote:Coming into today, I knew I would claim.
Oh? Why? You would have pushed away from the no-lynch option based on your null tell on me and a guilty?
Yes. Better to lynch confirmed scum now and if we need to no-lynch do it with a smaller pool of people later. No-brainer, from where I sit.
Papa Zito wrote:[
The only one, with a guilty to boot. What a lucky town we are.
In the last two pages we've basically heard the same two things repeated ad nauseum:

1) That's so convenient!
2) Pffffffft, you're the only one who claimed a power role!

I'm inclined to think that an actual townie's move would probably be to try and display how I'm scum instead of arguing about the setup. Hell, I wrote a half page on why I targeted who I did and why I claimed when I did, which he should be trying to rip apart. Or to fight for his own innocence, as silly as it may seem, to avoid getting lynched.
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Post Post #780 (ISO) » Wed Dec 16, 2009 9:00 am

Post by charlatan »

Papa Zito wrote:but the only reason for them to do this is if mislynching me wins them the game.
Or, case #2, I'm telling the truth and lynching you keeps us in the game another day.
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Post Post #781 (ISO) » Wed Dec 16, 2009 9:05 am

Post by Scien »

PapaZ wrote:You're forgetting that one of his results is a track on a vanilla townie.
A
claimed
vanilla townie. But I know what you are saying.
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Post Post #782 (ISO) » Wed Dec 16, 2009 9:18 am

Post by crypto »

PZ, accusing charlatan of being scum simply due to your point of view (VT vs. tracker claim) is acceptable, however lazy, useless, childish, and utterly unpersuasive. But accusing him of being scum because he got one guilty result out of two investigations is a load of bullshit and you know it.
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Post Post #783 (ISO) » Wed Dec 16, 2009 11:06 am

Post by Zorblag »

@Crypto, Troll's role just be Town. Troll would like to hear what Crypto's be now.

Troll has more to say after hearing that though Troll be even further behind in another game so Troll will be catching up there first.

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Post Post #784 (ISO) » Wed Dec 16, 2009 11:42 am

Post by crypto »

Yeah, well, mine's also town. :( I was hoping someone would contradict PZ, but retrospectively that would be a really stupid move.
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Post Post #785 (ISO) » Wed Dec 16, 2009 12:13 pm

Post by Scien »

Crypto, did you ever claim your first role?
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Post Post #786 (ISO) » Wed Dec 16, 2009 12:14 pm

Post by Scien »

Zorblag too.
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Post Post #787 (ISO) » Wed Dec 16, 2009 12:24 pm

Post by VP Baltar »

crypto wrote:Yeah, well, mine's also town. :( I was hoping someone would contradict PZ, but retrospectively that would be a really stupid move.
So, who would have been scum out of that to you? I don't see why you would expect someone to contradict him if your PM says the same thing.
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Post Post #788 (ISO) » Wed Dec 16, 2009 12:30 pm

Post by Zorblag »

Troll's first role was Town which Troll said when Troll asked what the other roles others had gotten were. Crypto would only have gotten one role PM as him be a replacement. Incidentally, unless the scum can day talk Troll finds fairly likely that him be telling the truth due to the entirety of his part in the exchange for this issue. Playing as he did with another role strikes Troll as something that would involve more subtlety than Troll expects from him (that no be meant as an insult.)

Troll now sees what it was Charlatan no understood at the end of day two. The plurality vs. majority confusion be believable and be why Charlatan would have said him thought that the lynch was already a foregone conclusion without thinking that the day was already over. As we now know that both wagons were on town there no would have been a reason for either scum or town to fake that mistake. Troll knew that when day two started but was trying to figure out how it happened anyhow in case it would be useful to know.

As Troll said earlier, Charlatan's claim do be convenient. It actually no be so convenient as the one that Scien gave in Newbie Game 791 when him was scum as that one was supposed to reveal the entire scum team (that be the claim Papa Zito was referring to a bit ago.) Further, Scien's given motivations for the night actions there no fit as well as Charlatan's do here. Charlatan wanting Scien to go first with his claim actually matches well also if him had no result when tracking him for exactly the reasons that him gave.

Papa Zito's bullet proof vest item claim probably be even more convenient. It gives a reason for us to potentially believe that the other version of the game was one where there no were roles and instead there were items. At this point no one has any evidence that there were either roles or items in the first attempt at this game so that be a nice way to make Charlatan look worse. Papa Zito as town should have been using that rather than the claim that this be a mountainous game as his defense from the start if it were true.

Troll continues to believe that this no should be a mountainous game. If it do be then there should only be two scum so we no be in LyLo anyhow. Otherwise the balance no works at all and, as Troll said, with the reviewers involved Troll would expect even a backup setup to be at least reasonably balanced. It still be possible that we have already lost any power roles we had (or items if Papa Zito's version be correct) but the insistence by Papa Zito that this be mountainous be bizarre.

Vi being a reviewer makes the tracker role reasonable because Vi has strong, very public views about cops, specifically that them no should be used. Having a tracker as an information gathering role in a game that Vi had any part in designing be, if not expected, at least not at all surprising. Actually, this now helps Charlatan a bit given his statement about hoping a cop might investigate him during the night. Troll no thinks him would bother bringing that up if him knew this about Vi and him would likely have been somewhat likely to claim cop instead of tracker as a fake claim if him lacked that knowledge.

Troll wants to hear what Ojanen's role was last game before doing anything in the way of voting but at this time Troll finds Charlatan's reasons for how him acted to be reasonable and consistent. Papa Zito's reactions to being accused as him has on the other hand no feel consistent and fails to be convincing as a defense. If we were at the deadline Troll would be voting for Papa Zito now.

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Post Post #789 (ISO) » Wed Dec 16, 2009 1:08 pm

Post by VP Baltar »

Troll wrote:Troll continues to believe that this no should be a mountainous game. If it do be then there should only be two scum so we no be in LyLo anyhow. Otherwise the balance no works at all and, as Troll said, with the reviewers involved Troll would expect even a backup setup to be at least reasonably balanced.
Yeah, this is true...not sure why I didn't think of this, but 3 scum in a mountainous setup would never pass Vi. So, if Zito IS telling the truth, we should lynch him and at worse would have a confirmed scum tomorrow.

Also, upon further reflection, he is likely lying about the bulletproof vest. I don't see a mini normal being allowed to have "items" instead of roles. Doesn't really seem normal to me.
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Post Post #790 (ISO) » Wed Dec 16, 2009 1:31 pm

Post by Zorblag »

VP Baltar, could you explain why you said that clearly the scum have no sense given their night kills already? Troll had expected you to think that more people had strong suspicions of ODDin when you made that statement but you only listed a couple. Troll also no found the kill of SerialClergyman particularly surprising.

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Post Post #791 (ISO) » Wed Dec 16, 2009 1:40 pm

Post by VP Baltar »

Troll wrote:VP Baltar, could you explain why you said that clearly the scum have no sense given their night kills already? Troll had expected you to think that more people had strong suspicions of ODDin when you made that statement but you only listed a couple. Troll also no found the kill of SerialClergyman particularly surprising.
I was mostly referring to the ODDin kill. There was nothing exceedingly protown about him and he was spending most of his time tunneling people who were suspicious of him rather than actually scumhunting.

Also, I was just going off the top of my head when I listed people who were suspicious of him. Looking at the votecount from yesterday, his wagon peaked with AGar, Charlatan, and Ojanen on it. crypto was also suspicious of him. Then AGar was lynched and confirmed town. So, we would have had 3 living players (4 to lynch) today who were suspicious of him. Yeah, that scumkill doesn't make much sense to me.



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Post Post #792 (ISO) » Wed Dec 16, 2009 3:21 pm

Post by crypto »

VP Baltar wrote:
crypto wrote:Yeah, well, mine's also town. :( I was hoping someone would contradict PZ, but retrospectively that would be a really stupid move.
So, who would have been scum out of that to you? I don't see why you would expect someone to contradict him if your PM says the same thing.
If someone contradicted him I'd have been
considering
—italics are key as I believe some mods do vary VT PMs—charlatan and whoever contradicted PZ.

I'm still not sure about this. I like Zorblag's argument that if charlatan's faking then this isn't LYLO anyway, but I think there's a VERY HIGH likelihood a power role was killed (why the flying feck would you kill ODDin?), and Sando might've been a PR who didn't get the chance to speak up, though I'd have to look back because I can't remember how active he was in the moments before he got lynched.

Blah, I guess that's what Troll's getting at with his criticism of PZ's "mountainous" defense.
Scien wrote:Crypto, did you ever claim your first role?
What Troll said. Crypto no have Raskol's first role PM.
Baltar wrote:Also, upon further reflection, he is likely lying about the bulletproof vest. I don't see a mini normal being allowed to have "items" instead of roles. Doesn't really seem normal to me.
Whoa. Not liking the VP/Troll tag team here. Your (plural) line of reasoning okay, but I find PZ throwing items into the mix (a) outlandishly imaginative and (b) not worth the risk. If he was lying, why wouldn't he just say he was bulletproof?

For PZ-scum, charlatan's point a few posts back (which obviously has ended up sprinkled through VP's and Trolls' arguments) works best for me:
charlatan wrote:I'm inclined to think that an actual townie's move would probably be to try and display how I'm scum instead of arguing about the setup. Hell, I wrote a half page on why I targeted who I did and why I claimed when I did, which he should be trying to rip apart. Or to fight for his own innocence, as silly as it may seem, to avoid getting lynched.
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Post Post #793 (ISO) » Wed Dec 16, 2009 3:31 pm

Post by Albert B. Rampage »

O.K. guys I have this last bit of finals to go through, won't have much time to read this game in detail.
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Post Post #794 (ISO) » Wed Dec 16, 2009 3:33 pm

Post by VP Baltar »

Pretty sure Sando claimed VT. That's off memory though.

Charlatan's argument for 'town would go back to display how he's scum' is a bit null, imo. Townie's get lazy too. (not that I think PZ is town). High word count DNE being town.

I think the strongest argument for the PZ lynch today is the mountainous balance issue. Mountainous is a VERY difficult setup for town to win (I've lost and seen lots of other towns lose on mountainous), and having 3/12 scum is about as near to impossible for town to win as can be.

Therefore, if this is actually a mountainous setup, we're almost certainly not in lylo.

I'm pretty much ready to lynch PZ at this point.
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Post Post #795 (ISO) » Wed Dec 16, 2009 3:37 pm

Post by crypto »

Baltar, it's more that PZ didn't put in effort AND didn't make the right arguments. His posts are like two-line "Setup and my role PM say you're scum" jobs as opposed to, heck, just a paragraph-long
case
.

Whatever. Apparently 9:37 PM is when my writing stops being remotely lucid.
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Post Post #796 (ISO) » Wed Dec 16, 2009 3:37 pm

Post by Albert B. Rampage »

VP Baltar wrote:Pretty sure Sando claimed VT. That's off memory though.

Charlatan's argument for 'town would go back to display how he's scum' is a bit null, imo. Townie's get lazy too. (not that I think PZ is town). High word count DNE being town.

I think the strongest argument for the PZ lynch today is the mountainous balance issue. Mountainous is a VERY difficult setup for town to win (I've lost and seen lots of other towns lose on mountainous), and having 3/12 scum is about as near to impossible for town to win as can be.

Therefore, if this is actually a mountainous setup, we're almost certainly not in lylo.

I'm pretty much ready to lynch PZ at this point.
So what you're saying is that either we have power roles, so charlatan's claim is believable, or it's a mountainous game, in which case we aren't in lylo yet. This looks like sound logic to me. 9/3 without PRs favors scum too much, this much is true.
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Post Post #797 (ISO) » Wed Dec 16, 2009 3:40 pm

Post by Scien »

I agree with Crypto (I think). Coming up with a lie about items that were only present yesterday seems overly risky, and really doesn't introduce anything into the current setup.

I don't see how it makes Charlatan look bad. I don't see how it would further PapaZ's goals if he is scum.

I am inclined to believe PapaZ had an item yesterday, even though that doesn't tell us anything about today.
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Post Post #798 (ISO) » Wed Dec 16, 2009 3:41 pm

Post by VP Baltar »

crypto wrote:Baltar, it's more that PZ didn't put in effort AND didn't make the right arguments. His posts are like two-line "Setup and my role PM say you're scum" jobs as opposed to, heck, just a paragraph-long
case
.

Whatever. Apparently 9:37 PM is when my writing stops being remotely lucid.
Yeah, I get where you are coming from. I also pointed out that some of his arguments didn't make sense from a town perspective. Anyhow, you don't have to convince me of a PZ lynch. The only reason I'm not voting at the moment is I would like Oj a chance to post her thoughts.

@ABR-yeah, that is my logic and I can't really see any holes in it.
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Post Post #799 (ISO) » Wed Dec 16, 2009 3:43 pm

Post by VP Baltar »

@Scien-see above mountainous logic. Either way we get a scum out of the deal. PZ is today's lynch.
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