888: X-COM TFTD Mafia: Over!

[Andrew Lemarchand]

EBWOP: Emile might not

want

any part of another townie lynch.

[Edward Smilie]

2. The 'I am town, you will be sorry if you lynch me' thing doesn't normally impress me any, but... I dunno, I'm getting a sense of frustration off Igor that normally comes from townies who think they're being misrepresented.

I don't know, I usually see this kind of act as a scumtell or, at best, anti-town. Defend yourself, don't just tell us you're a townie and that we're making a mistake. Is there anything specifically that you can cite about Igor as townie frustration?

Well, it's kinda anti-own alignment. I can't point out any specific word or phrase, it's the tone of his post. Town and scum self-destructing tend to do so in different ways- town tend to lash out indiscriminately, whereas scum are more... measured- they tend to direct their anger at their partners, or at a specific townie who they think is MoSing them.

[Igor Schultz]

The main person That I think should be lynched is emmy... defending scum, no content, lurking.

the other "3" people are not as worth a lynch. I am now getting more town reads from edward. His first few posts were shakey but as of late he is coming around.

Other then the gambit I pulled which every one fucking thinks I am lying about. What are your reasons for voting me, no really what are they.

[Edward Smilie]

Can you explain a bit more about this 'gambit' you pulled? What precisely was the gambit, what reaction did you expect, and what would this have told you about anyone's alignment?

As far as I can make out, what you did is made a non-sequitur argument: namely that because I felt scum often hid in that middle group of players who neither stand out as pro nor antitown, then because your vote was on Emile before anyone else's today, you must be town.

Which, to me, is kinda like arguing that it is raining, therefore Taco Bell provides good mexican food at reasonable prices. The two just don't seem related at all.

[Jaime Marcelle]

2. The 'I am town, you will be sorry if you lynch me' thing doesn't normally impress me any, but... I dunno, I'm getting a sense of frustration off Igor that normally comes from townies who think they're being misrepresented. I mean, he did misrepresent my position totally, but that might just be an issue of reading comprehension/ misunderstanding it than deliberately strawmanning.

This is incorrect. Saying "I am town and you will lose if you lynch me" is anti-town. it is used to appeal to peoples fear like "Omg, what if he really is town". At best this is a null-tell.

Can you explain a bit more about this 'gambit' you pulled? What precisely was the gambit, what reaction did you expect, and what would this have told you about anyone's alignment?

I agree. I don't think i saw any gambit.

[Igor Schultz]

It was not so much a gambit as a test of ed's logic. I was making a big shit over the fact that I vote emmy first to see if I would gain town pts from ed. He however does have a logical statment regarding the midlle mafian.

[Jaime Marcelle]

It was not so much a gambit as a test of ed's logic. I was making a big shit over the fact that I vote emmy first to see if I would gain town pts from ed. He however does have a logical statment regarding the midlle mafian.

This was a horrible gambit. Did you expect the town to beleive it because I sure don't. It looks more that your just trying to get everyone to lay off you scot free instead of actually making a gambit. I will wait to hear what Emile and Leon have to say about this (they were after all my other top two choices) before making a vote.

[Jaime Marcelle]

EBWOP: I screwed up with the tags. The point not in quotes was a quote from Igor while the part in quotes is what I posted.

[malthusis]

Discussion was starting to grind to a halt as the remaining members of X-COM were splitting themselves into 2 groups on who to lynch. Both arguments have their own pros and cons, and the groups are at a deadlock on who to lynch. As the day keeps ticking away, will they have chosen the right person in the end?

The Second Vote Count of Day 3:

Emile Buchard:2 (Igor, Edward)

Igor Schultz:3 (Andrew, Leon, Claude)

Not Voting: (Spencer, Jaime, Emile)

Notes:

1. Deadline is coming up! It is 2 weeks after the start of the day, which lands it on Dec. 24.

[Claude Lefevre]

Peeps sorry I forgot putting the

V/LA

in the sig, anyway I'll be back on Sunday.

[Igor Schultz]

I feel good today, it is my last day of school for 2 weeks, yay! Now to the point. Other then that one post I don't see myself making any scum tells. Any person got a case on me? NO not yet.... let's lynch IGOR for making one scummy post.

[Andrew Lemarchand]

Other then the gambit I pulled which every one fucking thinks I am lying about. What are your reasons for voting me, no really what are they.

I actually did vote for you before your so-called gambit. The basic reasons were that you spent a lot of time talking about roles, especially townie ones, and that you seemed ok with voting lots of different people for very minor reasons. Lynch Edward because he's a joker? Lynch Claude because he said you were an example of misusing Gerhard's metafishing? Lynch Leon for...oh wait, no reason ever given for that suspicion. Even your reasons for voting Emile have been pretty vague and weak.

[Jaime Marcelle]

I actually did vote for you before your so-called gambit. The basic reasons were that you spent a lot of time talking about roles, especially townie ones, and that you seemed ok with voting lots of different people for very minor reasons. Lynch Edward because he's a joker? Lynch Claude because he said you were an example of misusing Gerhard's metafishing? Lynch Leon for...oh wait, no reason ever given for that suspicion. Even your reasons for voting Emile have been pretty vague and weak.

My reasons are more or less pretty much the same as this. I started to see them as Andrew started to point them out. That said, I would still rather wait until I hear from Emile and Leon before I vote.

[Leon Dreyfus]

Finals are over now, whoo.

Anyways, I'm down for the Igor lynch out of all alive I feel he's the best shot for scum.

[Edward Smilie]

Jaime Marcelle wrote:
Edward wrote:
2. The 'I am town, you will be sorry if you lynch me' thing doesn't normally impress me any, but... I dunno, I'm getting a sense of frustration off Igor that normally comes from townies who think they're being misrepresented.


This is incorrect. Saying "I am town and you will lose if you lynch me" is anti-town. it is used to appeal to peoples fear like "Omg, what if he really is town". At best this is a null-tell.


Well, presumably any reasonable townie would be aware of the pitfalls of lynching town.

But more to the point, you're playing like an autistic hyperlogician. Yes, there is the possibility of it being an AtE. However:

This isn't a game of adding up pro and antitown things people do, and lynching whoever has the greatest negative outcome. Whilst certain things, like hardcore lurking, do require policy lynching, in the most part scumhunting is a matter of pyschological profiling. Empathizing, and trying to think 'why did they do that?' And Igor's actions give me the impression of a frustrated townie, rather than a flailing scum.

Do bear in mind this is a Deep South game: so scum can presumably scumtalk throughout. A scum therefore has his partner on hand to advise throughout the game, and would be able to get advice, and support, and so on from him/her at all times. They often also choose to run pretty much every attack they make past the gallery, to ensure it doesn't have a massive gaping flaw in it that will make that player look really scummy and endanger them.

If a scum in this setup pulls self-destruction/ appeal to emotion, it's likely to be a deliberate tactic- and it makes no sense to use it as a deliberate tactic when there's a strong alternative wagon. In fact, all Igor needs to do is say nothing particularly noteworthy, and Emile gets lynched here.

Igor appeared to self-destruct out of nowhere. This doesn't feel like a deliberate scum manipulation to me, as I said before, self-destructing VI scum tend to lash out at specific people, and not generally like Igor has, and therefore i think he's more likely town.

Same deal with Stuart. You completely failed to grasp that him not sharing his reason even when the alternative was getting lynched was not something that could possibly be advantageous for scum.

Also, I'm not keen to see emile wriggle off the hook again.
____________________
Short version: Yes, 'I'm town and you'll be sorry if you lynch me' CAN be scum appealing to emotion, but I don't think it is here.

[Emile Buchard]

vote: Igor

.

He's been wishy-washy the whole game. When people suspect Stuart, he votes Stuart, when people suspect Leon, he votes Leon, when people suspect me, he makes sure to be the first person to vote for me the next day so he can say he wasn't being wishy-washy. Then he comes up with some stupid gambit that failed epically just to try and cover his ass. Igor, I believe that puts you at L-1, what do you have to say?

[Edward Smilie]

@Emile: If a protown player sees another player make a compelling case against a third party, what should he do?

[Andrew Lemarchand]

Unvote

I'm not as sure as I once was about Igor and I'd like to give him a chance to respond to the latest posts from myself and Emile.

[Jaime Marcelle]

I still want to hear from Leon about stuff other then "I'm fine with an Igor lynch". Why are you fine with it? What are your thoughts about the game? etc.

He's been wishy-washy the whole game. When people suspect Stuart, he votes Stuart, when people suspect Leon, he votes Leon, when people suspect me, he makes sure to be the first person to vote for me the next day so he can say he wasn't being wishy-washy.

You want to know what the funny thing about this is? You've only made three votes this entire game in order they are: Stuart, Otto, and Igor... The same three people that everyone wanted to vote. Exactly what you're saying here applies to you and yet you try and get evryone off of you and get Igor lynched so you could survive. I think i've made up my mind here.

Vote Emile

I beleive that puts you at L-2. What do you have to say?

[Igor Schultz]

@andrew, yes you are right I do want to lynch alot of people (or at least it seems that way). I was right about gerhard... as for stu almost everyone voted him. Same with otto. Remeber that the lynch otto was for my logic test thing. And the leon was never taken to me as a real fos.

emmy have you noted that you have only voted for town players thus far? I voted for ger way back in the day. You have also lurked almost the entire game as well. I have also not been wishy washy with my votes... re-read the vote counts. Emmy so far to me comes off as lurking scum who onjly votes town.

[Jaime Marcelle]

@andrew, yes you are right I do want to lynch alot of people (or at least it seems that way). I was right about gerhard... as for stu almost everyone voted him. Same with otto. Remeber that the lynch otto was for my logic test thing. And the leon was never taken to me as a real fos.

I do not like the beginning part of this post. The part about Gerhard is ok I guess but if you start to use it as a defensive statement to keep you from getting lynched then we'll have problems. And the Stuart part... Yeah. A good defence about why you voted Stuart is NOT "Oh, everyone voted him so it was ok for me to". Again if you start to use it as a defense I will not hesitate to lynch you.

[Jaime Marcelle]

EBWOP: For got a part.

I will not lynch you if someone acts more scummy or if you are beginning to look more like town to me. Just wanted to make that clear.

[Edward Smilie]

The problem with the 'everyone did it' excuse is that everyone can use it. Someone's scum.

I would like everyone else voting Emile (or for that matter, Igor) to answer this: Who is your best guess for that player's partner?

One thing that's giving me slight pause regarding Emile is my own difficulty in answering this.

[Edward Smilie]

@ Jaime- the bigger thing, I think, about Igor's post is that he didn't actually do anything to get Gerhard lynched, so it's easily possible it could be harmless distancing. He dropped it PDQ when the chance to wagon Otto instead showed up.

Going after scum early in a day, then wagoning to lynch (or rather, self-destruction to avoid it) a town player makes you more, not less, likely to be scum. Also note: Igor must have been professing to believe Stuart scum, since he was voting him, but suggested Gerhard as scum on the wagon before the flip.

Actually, @Igor, I don't think we've ever heard a proper explanation of that one.

[Emile Buchard]

@Emile: If a protown player sees another player make a compelling case against a third party, what should he do?

Depends on how compelling the said case is.

emmy have you noted that you have only voted for town players thus far? I voted for ger way back in the day.

You are assuming that you are town yourself, something that I highly doubt. Also, Stuart was anti-town regardless of his alignment, I'm sure nearly everyone here can agree on that. Otto suicided. You can't really say that "I've only voted for town players. You saying you voted for Gehard doesn't mean anything except that you bussed him and are trying to get the credit for it now.