Netopalis wrote:Well, the difference between an unnightkillable doc and a treestumper is the fact that the doc is a passive role. However, there is an objective manifestation of the lumberjack role that Josh
cannot fake
. While he cannot be definitely cleared if that role is not used,
if it is used and a treestump is created, he is cleared.
BC beat me to the punch. Obviously if the role is used it is real, but as I was also going to say, there is the possibility that it's a scum PR.
I think that is where Chinaman's suspicion of you is coming from, you are very quick to clear Josh completely if the role part of the claim is true, you seem to be discounting the possibility of a scum PR.
Josh's ability couldn't help scum, though, and he'd have no incentive to use it.
I do, however, agree that a scum roleblocker against him is fairly likely.
For those saying this role wouldn't help scum.....
How is making a known town (scum know this) into a voteless stump and killing him off later (say, oh i dont know, end game) not good for scum? Seriously folks, think before you post. I'm not saying it's a scum PR, let me be clear that I don't think it's a role at all, but that being said, I don't see how this power helps town in any way shape or form. THE STUMP IS KILLABLE BY SCUM!!! (Big Note here: this rule alone makes me think if it is a role, it's a scum PR that scum-JL is trying to pass off as a town PR. Think about how set he would be if he stumped someone N1 and he was scum with this PR but passed it off as a town PR) Come on! All his role would do if targeted on a townie by accident or on purpose is cause that townie to lose any PR he/she has, make that townie not able to vote, AND to top it off, that stump is killable! Let's add in the fact that even if scum let the stump live for awhile and that stump was a townie and that stump can still talk HE/SHE IS AS BLIND AS THE REST OF US!! With that in mind, all those saying JL should prove it, or should be given a pass, or anything other than lynching the lying scum right now, PLEASE EXPLAIN HOW HIS ROLE, IF IT IS SOMEHOW TRUE, HELPS TOWN AT ALL!
If JL were somehow telling the truth, scum know this and there are a multitude of things that could happen N1 to make it so there is no stump D2. I won't go into them as there could be a million different PR's out there for both scum and town, but needless to say, his claim is far from provable and if scum stopped him from stumping N1, he's dead D2 and they have effectively killed a possible 4 town before we get past this. I still don't believe any of this will happen since I think JL is scum, but I just wanted to put out there that I have at least thought about the other possibility.
Sorry for the caps, but it's the next best thing to yelling I have. It's blowing my mind this is even still under discussion. Once you read through the logic of my post, vote JL and let's get this done with. The only good thing to come out of this ongoing discussion is I have some very solid town reads as I don't think scum would bus JL yet since half the town seems to where helmets IRL. That is of course if I'm right and JL is scum. I have very little doubt I'm wrong here and if I am, it will be due to JL being a horrible town player in this game or the MOD smoking crack when he gave out this role. (again, no offense MOD)
Ok.....
First of all, there is no point in scum killing a stump unless the stump is a particularly good player, since killing somebody else puts them one round closer to LYLO. Second, this IS a town role because it is effectively a vig if it hits scum. We then become one vote further away from LYLO.
Now, of course, this is a night action that creates a tree stump. That's fine. In fact, it's rather what we expect in theme games, as they're often plays on obscure roles used elsewhere.
Third, you've not explained why you feel that the claim is a lie, other than that you don't seem to understand what the role does. Please explain the following:
A) Why do you think that we need to lynch Lyman despite the potential for confirming him?
B) Why do you feel that his claim is fraudulent?
C) What made you suspicious of Lyman to begin with? What acts of his do you find scummy?
My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
Temporarily retiring following the end of my current obligations.
I stand corrected. There's one instance out of almost 900 games, though....it's EXTREMELY rare. I would submit that a mafia lumberjack has never been played before and would be rather pointless.
Budja, he already nameclaimed. Also, what BC wagon?
My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
Temporarily retiring following the end of my current obligations.
Netopalis, you keep comparing Josh's claimed role to a "one-shot vig" or a treestump, but it's not exactly right on either count. I read the Tree Stump article you linked to and it is not at all the same as what Josh has claimed. A Tree Stump "has no effects or Night Actions" and "can no longer ... be killed by anybody".
Please stop referring to his role as a Tree Stumper because it is patently false.
It is a role that creates tree stumps - I took the loss of the night action as a given with the loss of the vote and the other effects that it has on the player. Regardless, my point still stands that this is
not
the sort of role that would normally be given to the mafia.
My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
Temporarily retiring following the end of my current obligations.
Netopalis wrote:Ok.....
First of all, there is no point in scum killing a stump unless the stump is a particularly good player, since killing somebody else puts them one round closer to LYLO. Second, this IS a town role because it is effectively a vig if it hits scum. We then become one vote further away from LYLO.
Now, of course, this is a night action that creates a tree stump. That's fine. In fact, it's rather what we expect in theme games, as they're often plays on obscure roles used elsewhere.
Third, you've not explained why you feel that the claim is a lie, other than that you don't seem to understand what the role does. Please explain the following:
A) Why do you think that we need to lynch Lyman despite the potential for confirming him?
B) Why do you feel that his claim is fraudulent?
C) What made you suspicious of Lyman to begin with? What acts of his do you find scummy?
A) Because this potential for confirming him is far less likely to happen then the potential for a number of other things to happen. At this point, now that he has claimed this role and if it were true, scum could possibly have a multitude of options to make sure he looks like a liar tomorrow and is lynched anyway. Thought I explained this well enough already.
B) I feel it's a fraudulent claim due to the fact that it's very far from a pro-town PR. Besides the fact that the stump is killable anyway, so confirming a town with it get's us no closer to lynching scum as that townie is as lost as the rest of us, the townie chosen could possibly be a cop or doc or a number of other real pro-town roles. If we discussed who he should target before N1, A: this gives scum even more info to make it so no stump happens (a kill trumps a stumping) and B: if the target we chose was a PR, he/she would then have to claim in order to not lose that PR thus giving scum a better target! There is no way I see this working out well for us thus I don't think it's a pro-town PR even if he's town and actually has this PR thus I think it's a lie because it's a non-pro-town PR claim that isn't pro-town at all.
C) At this point I'm not going back through posts I have already written to explain certain things that have made me suspicious of JL. I usually have a habit of explaining them in my posts so do an ISO of me and find them yourself. I'm not going to do the work for you. If you have any questions about specific things I wrote while going through, I'll be happy to address those.
Look, as I've said before, I think the claim is an outright lie or possibly a scum PR trying to be spun as a town PR. Either way, I don't want him using it as I don't see this working out well for town in any way. Even if we told him to use his own discretion, he could easily target a more useful town PR and screw us.
Now, I want you to answer me my original question to everyone, which includes you, and tell me how him using his power (if it isn't a lie) would benefit the town more than hurt it.
Netopalis wrote:It is a role that creates tree stumps..
No it isn't. A Tree Stump self-declares and can not be killed. This is an action that forcibly removes the ability of a player to vote, but leaves them night-killable. Not at all an apt comparison.
Still I do agree that as such it is fairly unlikely as a scum role. Perhaps it is coupled with a unique win condition? For example, we have only Josh's word that this is a "one-shot" action. What if he is able to "suck the life out of one player" every night?
Chinaman: So, let me get this straight, your first argument is "He may be telling the truth, but the mafia may make it so that it looks like he's lying, therefore we need to lynch him before they can do that?" Honestly.
In response to B, if it is used as a vig would be used - against scum - it can be useful in a pro-town fashion. Originally, I thought it would have value if used against a pro-town player - I was envisioning a particularly good scumhunter who would be confirmed and unnightkillable and who would thus be able to lead the town. Unfortunately, since the stump can still be NK'd, there's no real point in that. Still can be used against the mafia, though.
I was hoping you had something better than to tell me to look back at your posts. Since you haven't, I'll have to refute each of your points one by one.
Your first point against Josh is potential buddying with Snow and distancing from Budja. I really don't see it from the posts, and I'm not sure what you're getting at.
The attempt at the mass prod is a null-tell at best. I really don't get why everybody read it as scummy other than confirmation bias.
Don't know why you even bothered to mention the soft-claim if you felt it was a null-tell, which it is, as soft-claiming town gives absolutely no more information, since nobody is going to soft-claim another faction.
Attack over an appeal to emotion - valid, but not nearly enough for the suspicion that you place on him.
Attack because it would "Get the game going". So would lynching any player. Get to the point.
Argument that he's faking lurking - this was finals season, and if I recall, he's a college student. I think it's wholly understandable.
Everything else is you not understanding the role or arguing that the claim is fake.
You really have not established enough evidence to support the lynch of a claimed player and have desperately tunneled him since your third post. Every post with the exception of two has been an attack on him, and to me, that reads like scum going after someone that has had a small bandwagon against them, then urging it forward.
I am not voting for Lyman today, and I honestly don't care what you have to say. He may be mafia, but he's claimed a town power role, and I feel that we should at least give him the chance to confirm, no matter how slight it might be.
____
Deathsauce, I'd argue that it's even more unlikely with another win condition. The only other common win conditions are lyncher, survivor, cult and jester, and it wouldn't make sense with any of those. Further, his play has been inconsistent with lyncher, jester and survivor.
My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
Temporarily retiring following the end of my current obligations.
Net: There are multiple things I don't like about your post, but I'll lump them into 2 general themes.
1. You really want JL to use his power (if he has it). Here's the problem with it being pro-town if used against scum...WE DONT KNOW WHO THE SCUM ARE! Do you? You are totally ignoring that fact and that if JL doesn't get lucky, he has a much better chance at hitting a town and a town with an actually useful PR not to mention the fact that if we have to tell him who to use it on, that person would have to claim. Why are you ignoring this completely? Yeah, if it hit a scum, that would be great, but the chances are NOT in our favor.
2. Holy defense of someone else. Do you think that's a scumtell? I sure as hell do. Your whole post reads either scumbuddy or scum trying to buddy. Add in point number 1 about him using it would be bad for town whether it confirms him or not and I have to give you a
Major FoS: Net
. If JL does flip town, you defending him and wanting him to use this power makes you my number one vote tomorrow. Actually, if the majority wants to lynch you today instead, I will be more than happy to join that wagon....as long as JL swears not to try and tree anyone N1.
I want him to use it because otherwise, we're going to lynch him and, if he's telling the truth, it's a mislynch. Here are the potential outcomes:
A) He hits scum - Success!
B) He hits town - Sad, but he's confirmed and we have one less suspicious townie
C) He's roleblocked - We lynch him anyway
Either way, the net loss for the town is equal in B and C, and there is a chance of A, which is a huge improvement.
Further, I don't consider defense of someone else to be a scumtell. I do it in practically every game that I'm in because I find that the vast majority of mislynches are done for crap reasons. Therefore, I consider it my duty to poke holes in any case that I consider to be weak because, in my experience, those weak cases are generally mislynches. I also don't like how you're setting this up: If JL is town, then I'm scum. If JL is scum, then I'm scum. However, it seems to me that, as a townie, I have a duty to play for the good of the town, and that means working to stop lynches that I have no faith in. Therefore, I'm not going to play against my win condition just to appease you.
My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
Temporarily retiring following the end of my current obligations.
See, you must be totally ignoring everything I'm saying. The following is under the assumption he's not lying scum.
A) He hits scum - success....(though his PR as he has explained it makes no sense when targeting scum as why would scum get to continue to talk but w/e)
B) He hits town - worse than just sad if he hits a doc, a cop, or a number of other useful PR's. This point right here makes you illogical town or scum...I'm heavily leaning the later.
C) There are a billion other possibilities that could happen as we a: dont know if scum have a roleblocker and b: you saying this is the third option makes me think you know there's a roleblocker vs just saying if there was. I say this because your point is so definite here: "He's roleblocked..." Not to mention you admit we lynch him anyway D2.
See, here's the problem. You aren't poking holes in anything I've said about his role being bad for town....all you're doing is trying to get us to push him to use it. Time and time again I've said how this PR is bad for town if it even exist and time and time again you come back with "we could get scum with it" totally ignoring everything I say.
Sorry for the "setting this up" crap. Let me clarify, you're scum. JL is most likely your partner and you both should die.
At town: I suggest we lynch JL or Net today and the other tomorrow. I don't like the PR claim and if he truly has the power, then I want him lynched today so he doesn't get a chance to use it because if it is a power in this game, it makes more sense being a pro-scum PR than pro-town. W/e his flip, I suggest Net tomorrow.
Chinaman: The same can be said about a regular vig, but I'd expect a vig to prove himself here. I think we can trust him not to hit any of our best players, and I think that based on that limitation, he's going to have a better chance of hitting scum.
You're right, a roleblocker is just the most common intervening act. He could have his target killed, but that would presumably show up in the night scene. He could have his target protected, but I don't know that doc protect works against it. I said "roleblocked" for ease of use because I didn't want to go through the wiki and list the 10-20 roles that could be used to stop his action from succeeding. I fail to see how this paints me as scum.
Further, it doesn't matter whether his role is bad for town or not, so long as he is town-aligned. Arguably, I think that it's better than a vig for town because if he does hit a townie, that townie is able to still contribute to the game from a confirmed perspective, yet a mafia player would have no real benefit from continued posting. Either way, you either believe his claim or not. Personally, I believe it for reasons stated earlier.
As for not listening to anything you say, I've consistently responded to your points - I've just been unsatisfied with them. Just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean that I'm not listening, it means that I think you suck at this game.
You have not responded to the tunnel vision argument, nor have you responded to my questioning of your original finding of Lyman as scum. Further, you continue to issue these directives to the town without really substantiating them. Classic scum move - spend a lot of time talking about who the town should lynch without really explaining
why
.
My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
Temporarily retiring following the end of my current obligations.
Netopalis wrote:It is a role that creates tree stumps..
No it isn't. A Tree Stump self-declares and can not be killed. This is an action that forcibly removes the ability of a player to vote, but leaves them night-killable. Not at all an apt comparison.
Still I do agree that as such it is fairly unlikely as a scum role. Perhaps it is coupled with a unique win condition? For example, we have only Josh's word that this is a "one-shot" action. What if he is able to "suck the life out of one player" every night?
Why would I lie about my power being 1-shot as opposed to every night? If I had the ability every night, I would've said so. (Also, that would make me a quasi-Serial Killer, which I am not; I am Town.)
I am Town, and my win condition is that I win with Town when all threats to Town are gone (that's a paraphrase; I looked at my role PM a few minutes ago).
Also, for those of you asking, my role name is Richard Curtis.
I have a good idea that I will most likely be using my power tonight, unless you guys collectively talk me out of it. I have narrowed my list down (to about 3) as to whom I will target.
Even if Josh Lyman is telling the truth, he's too dangerous for me to keep around. I don't want anyone to have that kind of power. That's why my vote stays on him.
danakillsu wrote:Even if Josh Lyman is telling the truth, he's too dangerous for me to keep around. I don't want anyone to have that kind of power. That's why my vote stays on him.
What the crap, man? You might as well just go ahead and claim scum.
Unvote, vote: Danakillsu
My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
Temporarily retiring following the end of my current obligations.
Net: All in all, what you're saying is you would rather JL prove himself town by stumping someone tonight even when the chances of him hitting a town PR are greater than him hitting a scum. The chances of him hitting scum are smaller than hitting a town PR by pure numbers. There is no arguing that point as it's a pure numbers game. But you know what, I'm tired of arguing with one person.
Everyone: We need everyone to answer these please. Do you think JL really has the power he claimed? If JL really has this power, do you think it's a scum PR or town PR? If it's a town PR, do you want him to use it N1? If yes, do you think we should collectively discuss who he should use it on, a list of a few people he should use it on one of, or just let him choose on his own?
My answers. No I do not. I would lean scum PR. No, definitely not N1. If the rest of you think he should, then I would say we collectively discuss a list of 2 or 3 people for him to choose from.
Net and Fuzz, why does Dana look really bad when I have basically been saying the same thing and I'm not being called out? Granted, I have explained my thought process but other than that, what's the difference?
What I have a problem with here is the way that he worded that. He basically said that it's too powerful of a role for a townie to have, and he'd rather nobody had it. To me, it sounds like scum trying to get rid of a power role.
My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
Temporarily retiring following the end of my current obligations.
Chinaman, underlining by me wrote:Net and Fuzz, why does Dana look really bad when I have basically been saying the same thing and I'm not being called out?
Granted, I have explained my thought process but other than that, what's the difference?
).
(or argue an alternative).
