Open 186; Jungle Republic (Game Over)

[curiouskarmadog]

what did he do that was scummy?

then answer, why do you think he was banned.

if he pulled that shit across the board in all games regardless of alignment, how can you just lynch him without hearing what his replacement has to say?

explain to me how THAT line of thinking is pro-town?

also, your thought about Bigmac? He defends his earlier actions with "it will provide a lot of information" but when the mod states that someone is being replaced and that replacement will provide fresh eyes on the game and will hopefully provide stances and opinions that will provide EVEN MORE information he votes that player before the replacement can get here. He defends THAT vote with "well, I guess Ill switch my vote back because...."

explain to me how THAT is pro-town and why you are letting THAT slide.

why is everyone is such a hurry to end this day?

[curiouskarmadog]

above post was directed at lynx

[Lynx The Antithesis]

what did he do that was scummy?

Let's see first Saber claims he will use no gambits to play this game, and he's constantly try to mix up his play so he has no meta. Then, as soon as the wagon grows on him he brings up the fact that he has self-hammered in 18 posts. Why would he do this? The only viable reason I would think for him to reference his behavior in the past is to evade having a wagon build up on him in this game. He's relying on people excusing his behavior like yourself as a means to not have his actions as equally judged as other players. This completely contrasts with his sentiments that he doesn't want the read on him to be the same.

All his votes were poorly or opportunistically placed. The BigMc vote was simply to match the wagon on himself. He didn't include any other reasoning besides his previous vote was going no where. Any time I questioned him about why he was voting BigMc , he would twist it to mean that I was defending BigMc when I merely desired to see what or what not he agreed with on the case. But he kept stalling and stalling to answer even while I persistently posed the question. His switch to MR was as opportunistic as hell even stated by himself. When the BigMC wagon was losing steam, he pounced on the easiest candidate to shift focus away from himself.

then answer, why do you think he was banned.

For ruining other games with horrid play? I don't know

if he pulled that shit across the board in all games regardless of alignment, how can you just lynch him without hearing what his replacement has to say?

explain to me how THAT line of thinking is pro-town

I really don't care in the slightest what he's done in other games. I'm reading him on this game alone. I never said we should lynch him without hearing from the replacement. Of course we should hear what he has to say, but it doesn't grant amnesty to Saber's play.

also, your thought about Bigmac? He defends his earlier actions with "it will provide a lot of information" but when the mod states that someone is being replaced and that replacement will provide fresh eyes on the game and will hopefully provide stances and opinions that will provide EVEN MORE information he votes that player before the replacement can get here. He defends THAT vote with "well, I guess Ill switch my vote back because...."

explain to me how THAT is pro-town and why you are letting THAT slide.

why is everyone is such a hurry to end this day

BigMc hasn't done anything pro-town that I've seen so far this game by any means. His vote on MR is pretty poor and seems like a stretch by far. He as well probably one of the scummier voters on the Saber wagon as well. You're correct in that his switch back to Saber just as we get a fresh replacement is also pretty scummy. Considering that we might as well hear what he has to say first. But overall I still see Saber as the most scummy over BigMc.

Who else do you find scummy as you've only been on BigMc today?

[ZEEnon]

Flava Flave replaces saberwolf.

[Flava Flave]

Hey guys. Started to read up and got tired. I'll finish some other time. Some of my suspects (I'm on about Page 5) include Lynx, Memorable, and bgmc. CKD and Hewitt are obvtown.

[curiouskarmadog]

Who else do you find scummy as you've only been on BigMc today?

there are a pair of active lurkers that I also think are scummy for their active lurking.

CKD and Hewitt are obvtown.

in a game where we have two opposing scum groups...how is anyone obviously anything? At the very best I could be called "protown". Why exactly is hewitt and I obv town?

after your read I would like to hear your top two scum suspects and why. Also if you were in our shoes given saber's play, would you be for his lynch or against?

[Sanhora]

@Dank

Once again, a few posts before I made my L-2 clarification, I said I didnt' like the bandwagon. I am not going to cry "DONT VOTE SABER!" every time someone votes him, they can do whatever they choose. I merely said why I was against it, people may listen to me or ignore it.

You were in favor of keeping him longer alive to get a better read on him. You think that players putting SW close to lynch were getting a little bit scummy. And all you said after BMC voted was that it was just L-2. You gave two reasons for not liking the growing of SW's bandwagon. But none gets pointed out after a new vote. You don't want him to unvote so that we can get a better read and you didn't question his vote, which according to you was scummy. As for your excuse in the above quote, you reacted like that later on though. Should we check how many times you commented on a player who stated why he liked the SW wagon?

Not seeing what Hewitt did as an accusation.

MR's vote wasn't as bad as it looks now back then, because it occurred in RVC. As we proceeded out of RVC and MR chose to leave his vote there pages later, it began to look much much worse. Thus, it wasn't addressed till later.

Totally understandable. It was so not scummy according to you. I totally buy that:

Within the 50 minutes prior to your post, MR placed a very bad looking "lets see you hammer yourself vote on saber" taking him to L-2

Wanna give a new excuse?

As for Paradox, I don't know if you picked the correct one. However, there are scum who like to vote their buddy based on something other players are doing as well. As you can't explain why, I have something to work if you flip scum.

Saber throws around his smokescreen, basically begging for a lynch. People consider it on D1, eventually backing off thinking "he's acting too scummy to be scum, he has to be town", as some players here have already done, and that wifom causes the town the ignore scummy behavior for the rest of the game, giving him a smooth ride. Scum has every reason to use this strategy, town has none.

Begging happened before the part that caused you to vote as well. You had no troubles with it back then though.


@Scott
It seems you don't understand my question. You stated that it's scummy to lynch SW based upon playstyle. This was pointed out by you when you give your opinion of BMC to CKD. But BMC wasn't the only player who did so. Yet, he was the only one you pointed out back then. Why not the others?

As for the thingy about lurkers and you not persuing them due to it being D1, what's the difference between this Jungle Republic game and the last one? Because in that one (Open 163), you stated you don't mind it as much.

Thank you for giving your opinion of post 178. Please explain why you gave no comment about GP thinking of hammering SW based upon him perhaps later being a liability.


BMC seems to not be paying attention and trying to 'please' players. Scummy.


@Budja
Your vote against Saber was a policy pressure vote? Policy is believable, but pressure is not.
Anyway, you did misrep him in post 51.What SW wrote, was:

I already posted and quoted it, I'm not gonna gambit this game, so you guys are wasting your time. Due to a certain bet I made, I'd love it if you guys lynched me day 1,

however

I have every intention of playing this game, so it's your choice.

Note the 'however' that I bolded. It connects two sentence pieces. What did you do in post 51? You slashed the whole sentence, giving the first a 'bad', while the second a 'good'. That's the misrep as due to the 'however', it's a complete 'good'. Not a 'bad' and a 'good'.

Thought you had posted inbetween the opportunistic votes and the post in which you voted BMC Seems to be wrong. However, still no explanation for not commenting on all of the players.

How do you know if BMC's vote was meant to be a hammer?

As for the statement of yours that BMC reacted worse, do explain why the wagon switch to MR then.

Where did SW say that he'd change?


I like what Lynx brings up in post 298.


And last, but not least, welcome to Dana and FF.

[danakillsu]

I think saber's recent behavior deserves a lynch.

I'll give dan a chance to chime in, however.

Are you talking about me? Because I didn't replace saberwolf.

[danakillsu]

HEY!!

unvote

. Didn't realize my vote was on someone.

[danakillsu]

Man, I would hate to lynch a replacement right off the bat, but I think saberwolf was really scummy. Anyone got advice for me?

[dank]

Totally understandable. It was so not scummy according to you. I totally buy that:

Show me where I say it was not scummy. I said it looks worse and worse as time went on; it was a bad vote to begin with as anyone reading the game could see.

You're nitpicking my exact wording and trying to spin in, which is a sign that the case you're making doesnt have the content to stand on its own.

Same with saber, 6 posts prior I said what I needed to say. The fact that I didn't repeat what I had just posted in my next post, somehow gives you the ammunition to call it a scummy move?

I mean seriously:

Dank(1:35): Saber wagon doesnt look good.
BMC(1:44: Vote saber
CKD(2:09) Unvote saber. BC, you fool, you L-1'nd!
Dank(2:19)- a whopping 44 minutes after my last post): mistake CKD! It was L-2.

What are you trying to build out of that?

As far as voting saber, please actually read my posts in sequential order, and you'll see a logically flowing thought process that convinced me to vote saber. If you have a problem with it, please quote the posts in order and show me where one doesnt fit into the other. All you're doing is nitpicking little bits and trying to spin them, which isn't a very convincing.

"Oh, dank, you didn't have a problem with him begging before." What are you even trying to say here? Saber acted scummy from the start, show me one place where I sad saber was town. I didn't "have a problem with it" because there was a sizable bandwagon on him already, and it was far too early to seriously consider a lynch. I gave him time so we could analyze him, and he gave way more than enough reasons for me to support his lynch.


Sanhora: what do you think of saber? Besides asking him some questions before he left, you've hardly mentioned him, which is fairly ridiculous considering how scummy he was this game. It almost seems like you've been trying quite hard to build alternate cases on new people while ignoring the saber case. Why?

[Lowell]

@ckd- saber has been an absolute disaster since the few pages when he was actually helpful. I'll hear out the replacement, but in general I'm not a huge fan of abandoning good wagons just to be nice to replacement.

[Flava Flave]

CKD and Hewitt are obvtown.

in a game where we have two opposing scum groups...how is anyone obviously anything? At the very best I could be called "protown". Why exactly is hewitt and I obv town?

after your read I would like to hear your top two scum suspects and why. Also if you were in our shoes given saber's play, would you be for his lynch or against?

"Obvtown" meaning I have a strong town read. Obvtown, protown, whatever you want to call it. It's mainly the way you both seem to be actively scumhunting. Then again, with multiple scum groups, that's not even a town tell. Meh, it's just the read I have.

So far, my top two suspects are Lynx and Memorable. Lynx seems to be making nothing but "people pleaser" posts. I don't like how he voted Saber, but was sure to reinforce that it wasn't a policy vote when his reasoning seemed to indicate policy.

In a game with Saber, I'd be frustrated as hell right now. I am very glad to see that he was banned for basically being an idiot. Hell, if I were the Mod, I'd have modkilled him when he talked about ongoing games. But your question was about his lynch. I normally hate policy lynches, so I don't think I'd vote him on policy. And he seemed to actually want to find scum. He was actually naming suspects and giving reasons. (Disclaimer: I consider Zwet a decent player). I probably would have been against the lynch as long as I had other suspects who I thought were more likely scum. It's hard to judge after knowing his role, but I think I'd have been more likely to vote Lynx or Memorable than Saber. Maybe even Dank or Bigmc because both are individually scummy AND their interactions look like scumbuddies.

Anyway, I'm at about Page 9 and just not very into the read. I'm catching myself skimming, so I will continue when I feel I can do a proper read. I have my catchup post written out up to where I am and will post it in it's entirety when I finish.

[dank]

Flava- please explain how hewitt has been "actively scumhunting".

[Sanhora]

@Dana
What about listening to what the replacement of SW has to say? And for you to state why you think SW is scummy and if there's anyone else you think is scummy?


@Dank
Note the sarcasm in my response about the MR stuff.
At least you have understand my point. You've called the vote from MR against SW bad. This was the case according to you ever since it was first made and it got worse after she decided to keep it. Yet, it wasn't that important to you to mention it right after it was first made. And instead, you voted a lurker. Correct me if I'm wrong, but haven't you stated this?:

besides, the support for a scummy player > someone who's lurking

And actually, now that I think about it, I like what Hewitt said to you about the L-1 comment.


As for the SW thingy:

The case on saber was weak. I've no problem with pressuring him to focus on this game with a few votes, but seriously pushing a saber lynch this early using this weak a case on him is borderline scummy.

As said, you had no problems with Saber's behaviour earlier. And as I asked you before:

Should we check how many times you commented on a player who stated why he liked the SW wagon?

As for me mentioning SW so little, he had to be replaced just after I had posted my analysis. As his replacement can't answer my questions to SW, there's nothing I can do. Though if you have payed attention, I've listed him as one of my bigger suspects. And you would have seen that I've answered CKD's question about SW being replaced.


@Lowell
Show those bad posts from SW that made you change your opinion about him after you had that townread on him.

[bigmc109]

Sorry for lack of posting, been busy. Will catch up later today.

[Paradoxombie]

@Paradox
In post 12, you asked Hewitt if he has a read on you. Why did you want to know?
Post 166 is so scummy.
And posts 187 and 191 are odd posts. They just don’t fit in the state of this game.

-Nothing in particular, just discussion
-Why would scum make a post like 166 at all?
-posts 187 and 191 were just an attempt to get my head around the setup. As I said, last time I played with two scum teams the game played quite differently. Maybe they just seem odd because they are game related questions that aren't trying to discover someone's alignment.

Bigmc's voting of MR and saber as they are being replaced is hard for me to read. At first I though his flipflop on MR was suspicious, but i don't see why scum would jump onto something if they don't even know whether it's a scumtell. His vote on saber wouldn't be a good move as scum, imo. Bigmc, what is your policy regarding replacements? Does it have no effect on voting that person? and you seem to read into people's reasoning for replacement?


I don't know about saber/flave anymore. A big part of me wanting saber gone was my idea that he would always be suspicious to me, and disruptive. The actual case against him doesn't seem strong enough to carry over like people seem to want to. But I don't have any better suspects yet. I would definitely change my vote if I saw a better one, but I've done a poor job of developing multiple suspects this game(something I'd normally like to do). Saber took both my focus and motivation, so I'll need to do some rereading.

I will say that San's case on Dank just captured some of my attention.

[Lynx The Antithesis]

@ckd- saber has been an absolute disaster since the few pages when he was actually helpful. I'll hear out the replacement, but in general I'm not a huge fan of abandoning good wagons just to be nice to replacement.

Wait, wait what?! You just said you had a town read on him. Did that just fly out the window?

Paradox, if you are not positive about Flava Flave why stay on the wagon? He's at L-1 one so a quick hammer will let the lynch go through. You seem to want the lynch to go through while appearing to second guess it.

[Paradoxombie]

Paradox, if you are not positive about Flava Flave why stay on the wagon? He's at L-1 one so a quick hammer will let the lynch go through. You seem to want the lynch to go through while appearing to second guess it.

I did forget that possibility. But I'm never gonna be positive, and I don't mind the idea of flava being lynched so much as wish I had a better suspect. I prefer not to unvote unless I have a better suspect, but even if I did that I still wouldn't oppose Flava's lynch on grounds of saber's play. For now he's still the person I want lynched the most.

[Paradoxombie]

but anyway,

unvote, vote:Lowell

His flipflopping on saber looks damn suspicious to me.

Originally:

Anyone unvoting saber after his behavior is crazy.

He's asking for it, and deserves it. More to the point, no one has explained to me why him threatening to self-hammer makes him town.

unvote, vote saber

then:

unvote saber, vote bigmc

115 and 117 are good. I have the same vague dissatisfaction from 114 that saber does.

I'm turned around on saber. For whatever reason I'm convinced he's town.

dank and saber both look town to me, despite their lover's spats.

suddenly:

I think saber's recent behavior deserves a lynch.

I'll give dan a chance to chime in, however.

@ckd- saber has been an absolute disaster since the few pages when he was actually helpful. I'll hear out the replacement, but in general I'm not a huge fan of abandoning good wagons just to be nice to replacement.

I want him to be more specific about what behvior by saber merits this most recent change.

[bigmc109]

I'm sorry again for posting little content, but I'm dealing with some personal things right now (negative things and holiday-related things). If it really becomes a problem, I'll ask for a replacement, but hopefully that won't happen. Unfortunately, I'll be

V/LA until Tuesday

. I'm only a couple pages behind, so I will try to read those in-depth asap (I've only skimmed them briefly).

@Paradox: To answer your question real quick, I had the idea in my head that replacing under pressure is commonly thought of as a scumtell. I was obviously wrong, hence my unvote. This is my first game as town in which someone has replaced in after the first few days, so I don't have much of meta with it, but I do tend to think that there are game-related motives for requesting a replacement. It's just my mind set.

[bigmc109]

Oh, btw, this mind set came from the end result of my first game, in which scum successfully used fake V/LA's to avoid suspicion (he claimed he was V/LA for the entire night and thus could not be scum; it didn't work, but it did keep him alive for quite awhile longer). So when it comes to out-of-game situations, I do tend to think there might be an in-game motive. If I found MR a bit more suspicious, I probably would have stuck with him.

[dank]

To answer your question real quick, I had the idea in my head that replacing under pressure is commonly thought of as a scumtell. I was obviously wrong, hence my unvote.

You've yet to actually say why its scummy, only that you thought it was. Are you saying that you vote people for things only because they're generally considered scummy by the rest of the town? That's a mighty safe way of playing this game.

It does not sound like you're interested in scumhunting, but rather keeping a "town" image and not doing anything that could stray from that. You made a vote, rather than defend it once pressure mounted, you simply said sorry, my b, if you guys don't think its scummy, then it isn't.

Anyway, i'm staying on the SW wagon for now, I don't think flava's shown enough to convince me to go elsewhere yet.

dana- who are your top suspects and why?

[Sanhora]

Sickish
Hope to be back soonish as I'm feeling better than before. But right now, I just want to stay in bed.

So ,

Mod: I'll be a little bit V/LA

[Scott Brosius]

I am here will catch up