Mafia 105 - Caught in the Crossfire (Game Over)

[Pads]

Vote Count, Day 5

hiphop ( 0 )
shotty to the body ( 3 ) Pads Sotty7 popsofctown
fhqwhgads ( 0 )
Pads ( 0 )
popsofctown ( 0 )
RedCoyote ( 1 ) hiphop
Sotty7 ( 2 ) Shotty to the Body RedCoyote
SpyreX ( 0 )
Unvote ( 2 ) SpyreX fhqwhgads

With 8 alive, 5 needed for a majority.
Deadline is December 23rd, 11am EST

I'm headed to bed, but I will look the material over when I wake up.

[Shotty to the Body]

Follow up to my last post, I got called away to roll the buckeye dough, om nom nom.

You seem to be under the mistaken impression I have to have some sort of one v. one Q&A face-off with you to prove that you're scum. This simply isn't the case, the evidence speaks for itself. Questions are for clarifying points, mine are clear to me, therefore no questions, simply points that you are free to contest as you please.

The fact that your so concerned with questions when

you're

under suspicion and not when a potential mislynch was on the line is pretty suspicious. It implies you either didn't care enough to or were happy to not ask me any questions or question Pads for not doing so.

Also you failed to point out any specific points in the PBPA that were awful, as you claim. You go for Sigma on D2 as well with no reasoning, just promises that they will come (ala ISO 14) and then abandon the wagon without any real reason as well (ala ISO 15). RC already pointed out the contradiction where you 'stuck up' for IK.

[SpyreX]

Spyrex, fhq, and rc- this is very important- you all have posted since the idk death, so WHY ARE YOU NOT VOTING WHEN WE ONLY HAVE TWO DAYS AND LESS THAN SEVEN HOURS LEFT? However, I want the town to think about this:
So far we have:
Dead anti-town: 4
Dead town:17
Alive players:8
If we hit the 33%, we could have a possible 4 scum left. I am not saying it is probable, but possible. So think hard before you answer these questions:
Is Shotty the best lynch?
Is Sotty the best lynch?
*speaking calmly*No hurry, just 2 days left*Speaking calmly*
Also from my understanding of the rules, as soon as deadline hits, the lynch happens instantaneously(no 24 hours), so Shotty please claim now, or at least soon.

OHH GOD THE SKY IS FALLING WE HATH NO HOMES.

You really just suggested an 8 man scumteam in a 25 person game and used this as a justification to a.) push for a claim when that lynch is NO where near set in stone and b.) to fearmonger about the time we have left.

I don't like it.

Enough that:

Vote: Hiphop

RC is not getting lynched. FHQ is not getting lynched. Pops is not getting lynched.

Believe it or not I don't want Shotty lynched as things sit.

So: Pads, Hiphop, Sotty.

I think I'd still love a pads but something tells me that isn't happening.

I need to reread Sotty because either RC is doing a bangup job misinterpeting it or this may be the way to go.

[popsofctown]

Every time i hear shotty talk lately, i'm feeling a bit better about him.

unvote Shotty to the Body

The fact the players I feel certain are town aren't voting him is definitely one factor in this unvote. And building a reasoned case on another player just answers an accusation of active lurking too well.

Sotty... isn't someone I'm jumping out of my skin to lynch. She spits out two-bite brownie sized analyses every day and, yeah, never sticks her neck out, and those are bad things. It's not enough for slamdunkscum, so this is more an unvote for Shotty than it is a vote for Sotty. (again, I'm not voting hiphop only for popularity issues.)

Sotty, what I'd like to hear from you is whom I should want to lynch instead, and why. If the case on you is anything, it's an accusation of poor analysis volume. Change my mind.


RC, you violated the vote counts day 1 iirc and now you have a warning. I'm almost certain you have my alignment, so I'm going to urge you to word count all your posts now so that there is not a penalty on the town.

[Sotty7]

Pops if you are not jumping out of your skin to lynch me why does the rest of your post look like you positioning yourself to jump on my wagon unless I provide you with a case of epic proportions?

It goes like this.

RedCoyote

I keep flipping on him. The start of today was really bad, he seemed to be spreading scumminess every where and seemed a bit panicked. Lately I have been seeing where he is coming from. I think his case on me is really weak and he could easily be scum. He has been saying I am scummy for several days and yet hasn't really done anything about it until today when Shotty gets some decent pressure. Looking like there is a link there.

Currently read =

my second scum suspect but there is room for town Red

SpyreX

Don't like the Hip Hop vote. Think that is him looking in the wrong place. That said I have mentioned how I think he is town because of charter and his obvious traitor breadcrumbs. ScumSpy would have seen that sooner and charter would have been scum sooner.

Current read =

Town.

hiphop

Focusing too much on the set up but is making actual efforts to hunt the scum. I didn't like his case against me which is very similar to his case on Red. Still after I read him I don't think he makes sense as scum.

Current read =

Over excited townie that the scum are probably storing up for end game.

popsofctown

I liked a lot of Pops at the start of the game. His tangle with charter was good and was some heads up scum hunting IMO. Today he seems to be more about survival than scum hunting. When Red brought him up as scum he seemed to attack that notion a little too hard considering hardly anyone really feels that way. Also his over reaction to Red's Spy/Pops thing was weird.

Current read =

Jumpy town

Shotty to the Body

Hasn't really done anything which is pretty funny considering his case on me. Wasn't on the Elvis wagon choosing to vote for Sigma at that time instead. Was lurking pretty hard today. He doesn't explain why anything in his ISO of me is actually scummy and has no questions for me. He didn't seem to find me scummy until today and really he isn't going to make a case on Red the only other player who seems to think he is town.

Current read =

Scumz

fhqwhgads

Town simply because I think rolf investigated him. Also he hasn't done much in the way of scummy actions IMO.

Current read =

Town.

Pads

Pads thinks a lot like me. I think he is town simply because of this fact, we use a lot of the same logic on people especially his reasoning for rolf investigating fhq

Current read =

Town.

So yeah, I have more town reads than scum so I am in process of elimination mode. Still I think Shotty is probably the mason partner to Elvis and is just scrambling for one more mislynch.

[Shotty to the Body]

Lol shocking, the only person Sotty can think to vote is me. I also like how me and Red are automatically tied together because we both feel that Sotty is scummy.

Why am I suddenly Elvis' mason partner? Projecting much. You all seem to forgot I wasn't here from the time D2 started to Elvis being shot and use that I wasn't voting her at the time of death as the absolute barometer for scuminess. Also Sotty incorrectly points out I was voting sigma at that time when I wasn't even voting anyone when Elvis was dead since I WASN'T THERE.

Sotty's responses to my case are dismissive and redirective, she can't address any of the points against her. "Hasn't really done anything" and I was "lurking pretty hard today" lol when I clearly had been absent from all 4 games I'm in for the entire duration of this day except a few posts in a Newbie because I'm the IC. All she does is whine about the lack of 'questions' (because apparently if I don't specifically phrase a point in question form Sotty can't be bothered to reply) and scream lynch shotty with no real reasons of her own to back it up, just pointing to Pads' case and riding the OMGUS choo choo.

Here's a question I got from the ABR playbook, Sotty. Who are your scum-buddies?

[Pads]

Pads analysis of Shotty to the Body's analysis of Sotty.


Iso 13 - A reasonable interpretation.


Iso 14 - I'm not sure the characterization implied by the word 'pet' necessarily makes her revoting of Sigma scummy, but it's true that she did not offer more reasons for the vote at a later time.


Iso 15 - It's not really OMGUS if you have reasons for it. I certainly don't shy away from pointing fingers at people who I think attack me either unfairly or with weak arguments, and I don't find it scummy when others do it.

OMGUS witch hunts are a pet peeve of mine. It encourages a scenario where, if someone attacks me, I'm never allowed to attack them back for the rest of the game, because then my attacks are obviously just OMGUS. Nonsense.


Iso 16 - I don't find anything unreasonable about this post. I have an inkling that Shotty is using the word 'echoes' here with a negative connotation, but I guess there's really not a better alternative.


Iso 17 - Again, I don't find it OMGUSy. Her opinion on Charter is, indeed, a bit wishy washy.


Iso 18 - I don't see anything unreasonable about the comment concerning Zakeri and Shotty to the Body, although the point is obviously voided by Zakeri's town PM. However, Zakeri's town flip, in lieu of this comment, gives a small scum bump to Sotty and a small town bump to Shotty.


Iso 19 - It's also easy for a scum to vote a townie, but that doesn't mean that only scum do it.


Iso 20 - Yeah, this is not a good post.


Iso 21 - What? It's not setup speculation at all. It's Sotty's interpretation of the observed facts.

Iso 22 - Absent from Shotty's analysis, for whatever reason. Nothing jumps out at me as a malicious reason not to include this post in his analysis, but for my part, this post seems reasonable.


Iso 23 - I can't blame anyone who can't reach a conclusion on Hiphop.


Iso 24 - All Zakeri votes were equally fail, in my opinion. And it's true enough that those reads were never given.


/looks at the elephant in the room

/sigh

unvote

Shotty? I'm going to get a lot of negative attention for this, but I think it's important. I'm going to ask you something, and once answered you do not have the opportunity to change your answer at another time, atleast where my opinion is concerned.

Are you our vig?

I can't be the only one who noticed your return to the game post came right after IdiotKing's death, as though you were waiting to see the result before posting. You being the vig does explain the plainsight lurking, the desire to hunt down hito's attackers, and the indication that you gave that you have something to claim.

To those who are going to attack me for possibly outting a power role, fine, have at it. But at this point, not mislynching is more important than 'zomg protect power roles from being NK'ed'. And if I was scum, I would have just kept it to myself and killed him during the night.

My vote will depend on Shotty's answer.

[SpyreX]

No.

NO.

Seriously. No.

Do not answer that question in any form.

Unless Pads has some SHOCKING REVELATION (which based on what happened he doesn't) I swear to god.

[RedCoyote]

He should answer it if he's going to be lynched. pops/fhq are taking the pressing nature of today too lightly. They need to step up to the plate and give us some feedback. I'm game for all three lynches, but I easily prefer Sotty, even moreso than I had prior to voting her.

I don't know if Pads is right to unvote, but he's right to be concerned about lynching a potential power role. fhq and/or Spyrex need to get serious about a hiphop wagon if that's what they feel is right, and pops needs to make up his mind. The time to kick the tires on a hiphop wagon is closing, y'all need to buy it or get off the lot.

[hiphop]

Spyrex read this, like now.

Article II:How Lynching Works (Read Carefully!):

2. At the end of each day at the deadline the person with a PLURALITY of the vote will be lynched. In the event of a tie, there will be NO LYNCH.

4. A plurality simply means "more than the others." So if there are 15 people and the votes are 4,3,3,2,2 the person with 4 votes will have the plurality even though he does not have the majority.

6. If a majority is reached 24 hours or nearer to the deadline, the deadline still stands, but otherwise the rules are the same as II(3).

It clearly states that the deadline meaning closed thread will not move no matter what. And at that time someone, unless we reach a tie, will be lynched. Now we have 32 hours left, I want to have people's opinions made clear as to who they want to lynch, instead of following the popularity contest(pops, and rc).

As far as I could tell, that lynch was set in stone, because it looked like four people were unmovable, so I was thinking that unless we have a claim, that lynch was the lynch. What is your idea of a lynch set in stone?

I did not suggest a 8-man team. I said 8 scum were probable. Do you know how many are left, because I don't? We should however be careful with our lynches.

Now I am going to ask you, what would you rather have, a no-lynch or a lynch?

Pads- who would you vote for besides Shotty? Is Shotty W/o the claim the scummiest to you?

Shotty-if you are a vanilla or the vig I encourage you to answer pads question this way "I am not a PR other than the vig.", or "I am a pr" This way the vig stays hidden, and we don't lynch another pr. I hope that is what pads is aiming for. I really don't know what the best play for you if you are one. If he is willing to lynch you, I would outright claim, but it is your call. If he is like me, who will most likely not get to a computer by deadline, than perhaps it is best to claim now.

Spyrex- when should someone claim? Seriously. Don't be a zak.

[Pads]

I'm feeling much better about RedCoyote's second half of the day play, especially with that last post.

@ Hiphop, As for the first question, I'm playing that one close to the chest for the moment.

As for the second question, absolutely.

Uncountered power roles do not get a free pass in my book at this point. We do not have enough time to verify them, and they can no longer do enough damage that the scum would necessarily feel it prudent to kill them over a highly pro-town player (so their continued existence is not evidence that they were lying, especially since a claimed power role being allowed to survive the night is an easy path for a mislynch).

To that end, more than just them claiming a role needs to be examined. Their entire play, within the context of their role, must be considered. Their list of night actions must be considered, in addition to any breadcrumbs they left. As I said before, if Shotty is the vig, what I took for scummy play is reasonably explained. Another power role? I'm not so sure.

To anyone who gets their panties ruffled by that, let me ask you this: Do you think we stand any realistic chance of hitting scum today if we issue a blanket refusal to lynch uncountered power roles?

If there's three more scum, for a total of five at the start (six with charter), which is not unreasonable, we are at lynch or lose, assuming no relevant night abilities.

If there's two more, which is what I think is the case, we are at lynch or lose tomorrow.

We've done pretty poorly by blindly singing the chorus of 'good policy' in this game, thus far. It's definitely time to buck the status quo, and it will soon be time for me to look at the song leaders.

[Sotty7]

I think we're at one, maybe two scum left. I doubt

very

much that Shotty is the vig.

[SpyreX]

He should answer it if he's going to be lynched

. pops/fhq are taking the pressing nature of today too lightly. They need to step up to the plate and give us some feedback. I'm game for all three lynches, but I easily prefer Sotty, even moreso than I had prior to voting her.

I don't know if Pads is right to unvote

, but he's right to be concerned about lynching a potential power role. fhq and/or Spyrex need to get serious about a hiphop wagon if that's what they feel is right, and pops needs to make up his mind. The time to kick the tires on a hiphop wagon is closing, y'all need to buy it or get off the lot.

I bolded the ding ding ding parts. If you're going to lynch, then you damn well put it to where its a for reallies lynch not after unvoting

after someone else unvoted

.

The claim is a function of the wagon. Not a byproduct of if one is going to

be

wagoned or not.

As far as I could tell, that lynch was set in stone, because it looked like four people were unmovable, so I was thinking that unless we have a claim, that lynch was the lynch. What is your idea of a lynch set in stone?

I did not suggest a 8-man team. I said 8 scum were probable. Do you know how many are left, because I don't? We should however be careful with our lynches.

Now I am going to ask you, what would you rather have, a no-lynch or a lynch?

I see three votes as of last pages VC. Further, of the group on shotty I see two unvotes. Yea, that is not a "set in stone" and this is not a function of a lynch or no lynch. Just because a deadline is looming isn't an excuse for losing ones mind.

To stop a nolynch I'd vote Shotty. After these last few pages I'm far, far more comfortable with a hiphop lynch.

[SpyreX]

Not to mention Pad's whole "I'm voting you if you claim anything but vig" business.

[Pads]

Not to mention Pad's whole "I'm voting you if you claim anything but vig" business.

That was almost close enough to what I said to not be a total misrepresentation. What I said, is that if he's the vig, it explains his actions. If he claims to be another role, I would not be so sure that his actions are explained by having that role. Not being sure implies that I would consider it before I made a call.

You know... thinking about stuff? Reacting to stimuli, having your opinions changed by what you see in the game? Something that you have failed to do for the entirety of the game?

I'm glad I'm not the only one who was thinking about the idea of scum saving lynchable townies for the end game, because that's certainly what your behavior has reminded me of. You've "Dog+Shoes"'ed Shotty and myself for the entire game, without making a real push for our lynches beyond 'woe is me, no one wants to lynch Pads or Shotty'.

I bolded the ding ding ding parts. If you're going to lynch, then you damn well put it to where its a for reallies lynch not after unvoting after someone else unvoted.

The claim is a function of the wagon. Not a byproduct of if one is going to be wagoned or not.

I laughed. There's a certain subtlety going on at the moment. Red Coyote picked up on it. Sotty picked up on it. Hiphop picked up on it.

SpyreX blew threw it like an out of control train into a brick wall.

I can't help but wonder if that's because SpyreX can't see it, because he's not town, and can't see the game through a town's eyes.

I would really like Shotty's post soon.

[Shotty to the Body]

Well Pads, I guess I'll throw the "I'll catch a ton of heat for this" line back at you, but I don't think my claiming would be pro-town right now, regardless of wagon size.

[Pads]

Why the change of heart since 1847?

[Shotty to the Body]

My lynch looked like a foregone conclusion then, now it doesn't.

[Pads]

But you just said 'regardless of wagon size'

[Shotty to the Body]

Gotta pick a stance, if I said 'I won't claim now but I will if I'm to be lynched' all that'll do is give people cause to jump on the wagon with less accountability.

[Pads]

Yes, but you're not picking a stance, is my point.

My lynch looked like a foregone conclusion then, now it doesn't.

is the polar opposite of

I don't think my claiming would be pro-town right now, regardless of wagon size.

You either would claim at the brink of being lynched or you wouldn't.

'Less accountability' is a poor argument, unless their votes on you get erased and the town can't see them afterwards. Every person is accountable for every word and every vote.

I gotta think a scum in your position has the following going through their mind:

If I fake claim vig, the real vig will counter and I'll be outted.

If I fake claim something else, Pads might not buy it anyway, AND i could be unlucky and pick a role that's still out there and get counterclaimed anyway.

So, I'll go back on what I said I would do and refuse to claim! lolz, stupid frog!


You offered no defense of your game long nil contribution, and while you may be a townie doing what he feels is right, you are also doing exactly what a scum would do.

vote: Shotty

For the previously stated case (updated [not edited, relax] to include you being in support of the lynching of yet another confirmed townie, IdiotKing)

[Shotty to the Body]

Not really expecting anything else from Pads.

Can we get a fresh vote count Zoraster?

[Shotty to the Body]

My point is I'm not claiming, it's a waste of time, I don't know how that isn't picking a stance, but you're entitled to your own point of view I guess.

[Shotty to the Body]

The fatal flaw in your hypothetical is if I was scum I'd claim vig at this point to out the real one. WIFOM speculation fail there Pads.

[popsofctown]

This game i so confusing...

Pads, why the sam hill are you asking for early claims?

Shotty refuted most of Sotty's points against him, so I'm gonna stick with Sotty vote here. And although directing the scum's gun was pretty dumb of Pads, his explanation of how Shotty could be vig makes me less inclined to lynch him.

And to restate my position, I wish I could lynch hiphop, but plurality voting or not, it's not happening.