Newbie 873 - Game Over.

[Crimmy]

EBWOP: After the :"As far as I can tell, since none of us trusts the other one, and thus, both of us believe the other is scum.", I was gonna continue with: "Then both of us are gonna attack the other with everything we've got."

[Kyiv]

I had my mind made up shortly after dimaba claimed. It isn't going to change for much. But Crimmy's lack of a hammer is... strange o.O

Yes, a PR claim hardly clears you as town, but it doesn't do anything to set you as scum either, which is what you are assuming, but clearly you would in this situation, regardless of alignment. I still have a town read on Crimmy, and I have a scumread on Jackabomb. You, Foilist, are purely being voted out on conditional. But you continue to bring up math into the game, and setting them as more likely scum based on probability, but that really shouldn't have a factor and if it does, it's a small factor. You can't simplify this scenario with such probablities.

I'm not convinced by your case on Crimmy, but I'm convinced by my own case on Jackabomb.

[Zorblag]

Vote Count 3.2

The numbers by the voters indicate the order in which the vote was cast. If two or more players are tied for the most votes to lynch at the deadline the tiebreaker will be the player who has the earliest active vote.

foilist13: 2: dimaba (2), Kyiv (3)
Crimmy: 1: foilist13 (1)

Not Voting: Crimmy, Jackabomb

With 5 alive it takes 3 to lynch. Currently foilist13 would be lynched at deadline. Deadline is 5:00 PM EST/2:00 PM PST on Saturday, January 9th, 2010.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Crimmy]

Okay, Let's make this legal, and try it...

And hope for the best...

Vote: foilist13

[Zorblag]

Vote Count 3.3

The numbers by the voters indicate the order in which the vote was cast. If two or more players are tied for the most votes to lynch at the deadline the tiebreaker will be the player who has the earliest active vote.

foilist13: 2: dimaba (2), Kyiv (3), Crimmy (4)
Crimmy: 1: foilist13 (1)

Not Voting: Jackabomb

With 5 alive it takes 3 to lynch.

foilist13, mafia goon

is lynched day 3.

It is now Night Three. Deadline for submitting night actions is 8:00 PM EST/5:00 PM PST on Wednesday, December 23rd.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Night Three has ended.

dimaba, cop

was killed Night Three.

It is now Day Four.

Vote Count 4.0

The numbers by the voters indicate the order in which the vote was cast. If two or more players are tied for the most votes to lynch at the deadline the tiebreaker will be the player who has the earliest active vote.

Not Voting: Crimmy, Jackabomb, Kyiv

With 3 alive it takes 2 to lynch. Currently no one would be lynched at deadline. Deadline is 11:00 PM EST/8:00 PM PST on Wednesday, January 13th, 2010.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Crimmy]

Hello there, Roleblocker.
I tried protecting dimaba.

So, who's next? Jackabomb?

[Kyiv]

Clearly.

Jackabomb

[Kyiv]

Whoops. Too early in the morning =(

Vote: Jackabomb

[Crimmy]

Okay.
For the sake of Christmas Killing:

Vote: Jackabomb

[Zorblag]

Vote Count 4.1

The numbers by the voters indicate the order in which the vote was cast. If two or more players are tied for the most votes to lynch at the deadline the tiebreaker will be the player who has the earliest active vote.

Jackabomb: 2: Kyiv (1), Crimmy (2)

Not Voting: Jackabomb

With 3 alive it takes 2 to lynch.

Jackabomb, mafia roleblocker

is lynched Day Four.

Town wins. Congratulations town!

I'll have a post with some thoughts on the game in a while but at this point everyone is invited to share their opinions about what happened. Remember that part of the purpose of the game is to learn both when giving your thoughts and reading the thoughts of others.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[CSL]

Wow. I was way off.

[Crimmy]

First off.
I'm a newb in this forum, but that doesn't mean I'm necesarily newb to this game.

This game was great, and had good modding (thanks, Zorblag).

As for the players:

-Dimaba: Need more appearance on the game, man.
You almost looked like a total lurker. Try sharing your thoughts a bit more. But I feel that your general way of playing is great.

-cades: You really need to start de-lurking, and using something more than Appeal to Emotion. How about making some logic?

-CSL: Nice play, but in the near future, I would avoid doing things like giving permission to hammer when nobody else is around. That was one of your fatal mistakes.

-Michel: What can I say? Completely flawless logics. Nice thinking, and overall good player.

-foilist13: Dude, you managed to tick me off

in a game

. Truly praiseworthy, you managed to make me lose it. It was only due to the help of a nice pillow, and kyiv trust that I got back. Nice scum play, man.

-Jackabomb: Another great playing, you were only uncovered because of dimaba's claim. You fooled me into thinking you were townie, and that was great. Another nice scum play.

-kyiv: Didn't get the chance to play much with you, but that long post two pages ago was good. I guess you are a good player, but I can't tell for sure until I see more of you (either on other games, or playing another one with you.).

-brother: Completely lurked this game. All I can say is, you gonna play, you better post. And not just once. Try sharing your thoughts every once in a while (at least, every day).

-McGriddle: Dude. You too have to stop using AtE's as a defense. Other than that, great playing with you.

Game was good, and it was a close call. Scum, nice work.
Town, we all did good, too!

[CSL]

If cades wasn't lurking, I would've pegged Jack...

And Crimmy, you're right, I won't do it again.

Next time, I should just step away from the lurkers.

[Kyiv]

I really have to say, you did

really

well Foilist. You nearly had me convinced to sway to your side. If it wasn't for a nagging voice telling me to shake my head furiously and keep on with the vote... you could easily have taken the win. In fact, I really feel scum should have won this game; they played quite well.

I also have to give props to the IC, who helped plant the idea that Jackabomb was scum in my head. You did well too!

Thanks for the game everyone, I enjoyed it! It was pretty exciting to wait for foilist's flip, and see the end result. I still feel bad for hammering you, foilist, especially hammering you first ^^;

[foilist13]

You actually did quite well Crimmy. You beat me

Scum will try to get you flustered, not necessarily to sway your vote, but to make you look scummy, or make your arguments look bad. I like how you handled that.

Ah, I had my hopes so high going into Lylo. We had actually planned on claiming cop and doctor ourselves, but we all know how that turned out.

Excellent game guys. I look forward to playing more games with you in the future

[MichelSableheart]

I have to agree, this was an excellent game.

The first I have to compliment is Crimmy for his play in Lylo. The claim was well played, and you managed to keep composed. Only one small remark. It's good to be careful, but there's no reason whatsoever to not vote the confirmed scum.

The second player I have to compliment is Foilist. You played an excellent game, avoiding suspicion while pushing mislynches. I'm unsure if you handled the claiming situation well though. By going for "it has to be 7 VT's vs goon and roleblocker" Kyiv had to decide between you and Jackabomb vs Crimmy and Dimaba. However, if you had counterclaimed Dimaba, Kyiv would have to decide between you and Dimaba, and you would have been able to better use the strenght of your previous play. Of course, ideally Jackabomb had counterclaimed doc immediately, and you had claimed cop before Dimaba did. That play gives Kyiv the most opportunities to make a mistake.

What I saw from brother looked good. It would have been nice to have seen more posts from him though.

cades play could have been better. Continually going "watch how I'm going to be under suspicion from this post" mainly has the effect that the other players are getting annoyed by you and will lynch you just to get rid of you.

CSL was mislynched mainly because his play at the end of day 1 was poor. He made a few incorrect decissions there, which turned out badly for the town. As I said, at least one player out of CSL/Jackabomb had to be scum for it. Apologies for guessing wrong.

Dimaba played good, gave a solid town read. A bit more activity would have improved his play, but he was never under serious suspicion, reasoned well, and handled claiming on day 3 correctly.

Jack played reasonably well. It may be worth noting though that asking for permission to hammer is quite often seen as a scumtell here. If CSL hadn't gone "sure, do what you want", you probably would have gotten attacked heavily for that.

Kyiv was proven innocent shortly after replacing in, and I didn't get to play with him. I can't say much about him except that he made the correct decission.

McGriddle didn't play too badly. There were some mistakes due to inexperience early in the game, but I don't think he should be blamed for being the day 1 mislynch.

[dimaba]

Good game everyone. Congrats to the scum team for your play upto Crimmy's claim. You went completely unnoticed.

I'm sorry I couldn't pop in more often, I wasn't too happy about it myself as I realised that it made me look like a lurker. I couldn't help it much though. I just had way too much other stuff to do.

[Zorblag]

So first of all I have to apologize for the way to lax modding during the first day. My life had gotten particularly busy and I didn't have time to be on at all. Fortunately you guys did fine without me and there were no major issues that came up during that stretch. Here were the night actions from everyone over the course of the game:

Night One:

Crimmy (doctor) protects cades.
dimaba (cop) investigates Crimmy (no result.)
foilist13 (goon) kills brother.
Jackabomb (roleblocker) roleblocks Dimaba.

Night Two:

Crimmy (doctor) protects MichelSablehart.
dimaba (cop) investigates cades (Kyiv.)
foilist13 (goon) kills MichelSablehart.
Jackabomb (roleblocker) roleblocks Crimmy

Night Three:

Crimmy (doctor) protects dimaba.
dimaba (cop) investigates Jackabomb.
Jackabomb (roleblocker) roleblocks Crimmy and kills dimaba.

The mafia did a nice job of using their roleblocks but it ended up being part of the way that the town managed to figure them out. I'm tempted to say that it's a good idea to roleblock (or kill) the same person each night in a given game to avoid situations like this but that's been my opinion since I started playing here and I've never really talked about it with others or seen major discussion about it here on the site so I don't want to make that sound like standardly accepted wisdom.

The town power roles also did a nice job with who they attempted to investigate and protect. Had it not been for the roleblocker either of the two should have made a large impact on the game on their own.

The biggest problem that I had with anyone's gameplay was CSL's self hammer. In this case it probably didn't make that much of a difference as Jackabomb was going to hammer anyhow but town should really never self hammer in this setup unless it's a choice between self hammering and a no lynch. There was plenty of time before deadline and it's much better to try to talk yourself out of the situation so that you're not sure that you're losing a town role if you've got any chance of doing it. The self hammer (and serious self voting in general) also takes some information away from the town about what others would do in most situations.

Past that it was a quick game. It could have seen some more participation from dimaba and I agree that cades could have been more proactive. I was surprised that the scum didn't do more fake claiming in LyLo (incidentally, there probably should have been a mass claim right off the bat there though in this case it didn't cause the town any extra confusion that it happened how it did.) Crimmy didn't seem to fully grasp the implications of what the claim meant but that didn't hurt things in the end anyhow.

It was a pleasure working with all of you. Thanks to everyone who played through the game and to Kyiv for being willing to jump in as the one needed replacement this game. This is the fewest replacements I've seen in a newbie game that I've been a part of and it's a lovely change.

If anyone has particular questions I'm happy to try to answer them. Otherwise best of luck to everyone in their future games!

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Jackabomb]

Honestly, if cades hadn't abandoned the game, I think we could have won. If you guys could give more feedback, here's the quicktopic we used for night talk. http://www.quicktopic.com/43/H/u7JRnejDmNvqc

As you can see, our strategy in going into LYLO could only work if we didn't have any town pr's. If we hadn't based our whole strategy off of that, things might have been different.

[Jackabomb]

EBWOP: Now that the mafia is dead, how do you all plan on dealing with the trolls and your long lost brother? If you don't get it, check out Zorblag's flavor text in his first post.

[Kyiv]

Nice little read there. As I said, you guys had it in the bag until those claims popped up. Out of curiosity, if we lynched Jackabomb and you lived, Foilist, what would you have done?

I think when I start modding newbie games, I might just make a rule where self-voting won't count towards a lynch. There's no practical applications of a self-hammer in a newbie game, and it isn't worth allowing newbies to give up when they're frustrated because they'll just get ostracized for it down the line. In this case, it was done by a SE who should have known better, but still.

I think I'll just drown the long-lost brother in my pool =D As for the trolls, I'll just shake a torch and pitchfork at it... or... Another mafia game! *Dun dun duuuuun*

[Jackabomb]

I think I'll hit two birds with one stone: poison the brother and feed him to the trolls.

[CSL]

Add "Swim like hell" to that, too.

[Zorblag]

@Kyiv, there are a couple potential situations when it is in scum's best interest to self hammer to end discussion. The times when it's the right move for town are rarer but they do exist (I almost had one come up in Newbie Game 853 which ended recently. I was scum there but the advice that I gave starting in Post 323 is something I believe to be true (I couldn't lie about theory like that in my IC for the game and that sort of deception isn't how I play my scum games anyhow.)

If nothing else a self vote or a self hammer in a newbie game will hopefully teach players not to do it in the future for other games.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh