Open 186; Jungle Republic (Game Over)

[curiouskarmadog]

no time to post, but not a lot has happened since I checked in last.

my vote is in the right place, just confused why some dont agree. saber was band due to his play...he has done it as town, yet so many want to say it is scummy here when it was constant across the board....

why not vote someone who is actually scummy and not just an ass?

[ZEEnon]

Vote Count:

Flava Flave:

dank, Lynx The Antithesis, hewitt, Budja, bigmc109

Sanhora:

Scott Brosius, Flava Flave

bigmc109:

curiouskarmadog, Lowell

Budja:

Sanhora

Lowell:

Paradoxombie

Not Voting:

danakillsu

With 12 players alive, it takes 7 to lynch.
Deadline: December 23rd, 2009 at approximately 10 p.m.

Budja has requested replacement.

[Lynx The Antithesis]

Ok so I just remembered with the vote count that deadline's tomorrow. I still prefer saber's replacement flava flave to be lynched, but it would be nice to hear from him and few more people before this should go through. I'd especially like to hear from Lowell before this day ends.

Mod

, with the replacement pending and a few other replacement/players needing to catch up, could we get an extension on the deadline?

[Flava Flave]

Ok, here's what I see on each player so far.

* bigmc109
-jumped the policy bandwagon. 5th vote.
-You say that you didn't know you were putting Saber at L-2. Did you not want him lynched? Why did you vote?
-Weak vote on Memorable has me wondering if you decided to bus. Damn, probably not because Saber was about to be lynched. Hmm. I'm lost now..
-Wow, didn't think Memorable was scummy until he asked for replacement. Not sure what to think because I'm suspicious of both you and Memorable, but this isn't scumbuddy interaction.
* Budja
-Post 32, why the smiley after your FoS on Hewitt?
-Post 93, what had Scott done at this point for you to declare him town?
* curiouskarmadog
-Was your initial vote on Saber a random/joke vote, policy vote, reaction vote, or a vote on an actual scum suspect?
-Why did you unvote Saber in post 70? Did you suspect him at the time?
* dank
-Why a lurker vote on Page 3?
-Hewitt vote (Page 4) is crap just like the Paradox vote.
-Why so quick to excuse Bigmc's actions (post 92)?
-237 looks like you want to attack Saber no matter what he says/does.
-To answer 313, read Hewitt's posts. He's asking questions, making points, and voting his top suspect. Sounds likes scumhunting.
* danakillsu
-the only player I have no comment on. Replaced a lurker and hasn't given enough for me to have any kind of a read.
* hewitt
-Why no vote in your first post? (Answered in post 24)
-Page 1, seems to honestly think CKD is attacking him in the post where he (CKD) votes Saber.
* Lowell
-Why no reasons for your first vote?
* Lynx The Antithesis
-Hmm. A random vote and no lynch vote. Why no comment on the Hewitt/CKD debate?
-You state that your vote on Saber (Page 2) isn't policy. Elaborate on your reasons.
-On Page 4, again insisting the vote is NOT policy, saying not to excuse Saber's actions based on meta, and not giving a case on Saber.
-203 twists what Scott said. He said the case is no longer valid and memorable is wrong for still pursuing it, NOT that the case would be bad even if it were still valid.
-Defense of Bigmc in the same post is noted.
* Sanhora
-Replaced Memorable, who wanted to test Saber's "threat" to self-hammer after he said he wasn't going to.
-Ok, Sanhora replaces in and immediately there is something very familiar about this player. Also, looks very protown. Odd because Memorable was so scummy.
* Paradoxombie
-Tell me what progress in this game we made with Post 202. Basically, why did that post need to be made?
* Scott Brosius
-Post 96 about lynching lurkers is terrible.
-What about this setup makes lurking more of a scumtell than in other setups?
-I'm curious about something. How would you compare your play here to the game where we were scumbuddies?
-232 is a good point against Memorable.

Overall reads:
Town read
CKD
budja
Scott
Lowell
Hewitt
Sanhora
dana
Paradox
dank
Lynx
bigmc
Scum Read

(Note, if it's not obvious the towniest players are on top and scummiest on bottom.)

also San...mind telling me who you are an alt of...your post is too experienced to be a newbie.

It's obvious, but he doesn't want us knowing, so I'll respect that.

[ZEEnon]

Jazzmyn replaces Budja. Welcome!

Notice:

The deadline has been extended for one week due to the replacements.

Deadline: December 30th, 2009 at approximately 10 p.m.

[Flava Flave]

Unvote, Vote bigmc

[Lowell]

@paradox- I'm mostly just annoyed that when saber had a chance to do something useful, he basically absconded. A town player would be more likely to at least do something useful, even if he knew he was going out.

I'm not overwhelmed by Flave's entrance. In an early post he claimed to be skimming, his reread is scatterbrained, and his vote is now on the second vote leader behind himself.

[Jazzmyn]

Hello, all

As the game moderator mentioned, I am replacing in. I should be able to read the whole game thread tonight.

Regards,
Jazz

[curiouskarmadog]

for 328,

I voted Saber, because I thought it was scummy to enter a game and automatic excuses poor playing..now I have never played with him before, so I thought he was just saying he was aggressive...or a lurker...I didnt know about his antics in all games.

I unvoted, because of the speed of his BW, because his played needs to viewed as a null tell because AGAIN it was the same across the board no matter his alignment, and I felt that there are scummier people in this game.

at this point, I am 99% sre Bgmc is scum...85% that he is of the mafia variety...

more votes here.

bet ya scum hates the extended deadline.

[Jazzmyn]

I've completed my first read-through and taken notes, but I haven't yet been able to do iso reads or analyze things in any depth. Tomorrow (Thursday, the 24th) is effectively "Christmas Day" here for my family because my daughter is leaving tomorrow night to go to Buffalo, NY where she will be staying at a hotel near the airport to catch a flight to Florida on Christmas morning, as she is departing from Florida on a Caribbean cruise from Boxing Day through January 2. So, I'm having everyone here tomorrow instead of on Christmas Day. Thus, it is unlikely that I will be able to do my analysis and post substantive thoughts until at least tomorrow night after dinner and presents and adult beverages and such. Depending on how late things go tomorrow night (and depending on how much alcohol is consumed), it may be Friday (the 25th) before I get to it.

I am on vacation until January 4 in any event, so I have lots of free time, and I will definitely read through the game again and post my reads and such no later than Friday.

Regards,
Jazz

[Sanhora]

Caught up:

@Paradox
There are many different possibilities why scum would make a post like post 166. From a free lynch or getting more townie points to strategic advantages.
As for posts 187 and 191, they were strange at that time as I'd expect such questions more likely to be asked at the start of a game.

The second paragraph of post 320 is way too scummy. If you wonder why, please pay attention to the bolded:

@Paradox: To answer your question real quick,

I had the idea in my head that replacing under pressure is commonly thought of as a scumtell. I was obviously wrong, hence my unvote

. This is my first game as town in which someone has replaced in after the first few days, so I don't have much of meta with it,

but I do tend to think that there are game-related motives for requesting a replacement

. It's just my mind set.

Can't wait for you to get back in action, BMC, as you haven't commented on my first analysis post.
Speaking about that post, Dank, it seems that you're done commenting on my arguments against you, while you haven't explained all of them. Why is that?

Also, Budja replacing out is scummy.

Last, Lowell, why are you still ignoring the request to show your case against BMC and this question?:

@Lowell
Show those bad posts from SW that made you change your opinion about him after you had that townread on him.

[bigmc109]

OK, finally caught up. Here are my current thoughts:

*Flav's vote on me seems purely OMGUS or just trying to vote the second vote leader. Also, I think it's a little odd that his only comment on Lowell was "Why no reasons for your first vote?". It just seemed like he went through the other players who have contributed fairly thoroughly and just skipped out on Lowell....I don't know what it means, just thought it was odd. I'm still happy with my vote.

*I don't like CKD's comment about "voting someone scummy and not just an ass". SW was scummy, and Flav is scummy; you have to at least be willing to admit that.

*I'm having trouble reading everyone else, mostly because I'm pressed for time.

Also, I'm sorry to say that I have family coming for the next few days and an important meeting/event the day they leave. Thus, I will be

V/LA

until the 31st. Yes, I realize it's interesting timing. Get over it. It's the holiday season and the start of the 2010 election planning. I might be able to get a post or two in during the time frame, but don't count on it.

@Sanhora: Can you give me the post # of your first analysis post? I might be able to respond to it later tonite, but I really don't have enough time to even find it right now. Sorry.

[curiouskarmadog]

bmc, please comment on the fact that he has been banned from the site for his play across the board...he played the same jack ass way as SCUM AND TOWN...so please explain to me how his play here was anything other than a null tell.

also explain to me why flav is scummy...you cant say someone is scummy but not explain why.

and...what have you done in this game that you would label protown?

[Lynx The Antithesis]

V/LA

from the 24th until the 1st. Hopefully I'll have internet access at my grandma's house, but if not I will stranded without internet for this time period. I really hope to be back for the extended deadline, if not my vote's where it should be right now.

[Flava Flave]

I'm not overwhelmed by Flave's entrance. In an early post he claimed to be skimming, his reread is scatterbrained, and his vote is now on the second vote leader behind himself.

Actually, the skimming thing was why I decided to stop my read for that day. I was getting lazy, so I stopped until I could come back and give the game some real attention.

Not even sure what "scatterbrained" means, so can't respond properly to that.

My vote is on the player who I think is most likely to be lynched as scum. I'd vote Lynx, but nobody is going to buy any case I put on him, so I'm not going to waste my vote.

*Flav's vote on me seems purely OMGUS or just trying to vote the second vote leader. Also, I think it's a little odd that his only comment on Lowell was "Why no reasons for your first vote?". It just seemed like he went through the other players who have contributed fairly thoroughly and just skipped out on Lowell....I don't know what it means, just thought it was odd. I'm still happy with my vote.

If the vote on you is considered OMGUS, so would a vote on half the players in the game.

Not much about Lowell stood out on my read. I didn't do ISO reads. I just read the game straight through, jotting down questions and comments as I went and posted those.

[Jazzmyn]

Having read through the entire game thread twice now, here are my scum reads:

Dana/Ginz
Flav/Saber
curiouskarmadog
Lowell
Hewitt
Scott

I freely admit that I am having a hard time figuring out players in this game, given that I've never played in a game with this setup before, but those are my top choices for scum at the moment, based on my reading of the thread. All are subject to change if they have anything to say in defence of themselves any time soon.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

That's the short version, obviously. I can post the long version if requested and if necessary, but sometimes I think the short version is better, particularly in a game with so many scum. Just saying.

Regards,
Jazz

[Sanhora]

Link for BMC.

And yes, Jazz, please post the longer version. This seems to be an attempt of easy scumhunting with us not being able to read you.
Also, what do you think of Budja replacing out?

Mod, could you prod the following players:
Dana
Dank
Hewitt
Paradox
Scott

[Paradoxombie]

The second paragraph of post 320 is way too scummy. If you wonder why, please pay attention to the bolded:

@Paradox: To answer your question real quick,

I had the idea in my head that replacing under pressure is commonly thought of as a scumtell. I was obviously wrong, hence my unvote

. This is my first game as town in which someone has replaced in after the first few days, so I don't have much of meta with it,

but I do tend to think that there are game-related motives for requesting a replacement

. It's just my mind set.

Sorry I'm just not seeing why.

also explain to me why flav is scummy...you cant say someone is scummy but not explain why.

But apparently you can label all of someone's behavior in a game as a null tell. We're not discussing on-going games, but I want you to provide evidence that saber's behavior was exactly the same in all his games, and was not influenced at all by his role.

also, your 99% confidence in a Bigmc lynch seems unrealistic to me.

That's the short version, obviously. I can post the long version if requested and if necessary, but sometimes I think the short version is better, particularly in a game with so many scum. Just saying.

Regards,
Jazz

But you haven't even told us who you want lynched and why.

* Paradoxombie
-Tell me what progress in this game we made with Post 202. Basically, why did that post need to be made?

Not enough progress was made with that post. I thought it was the best argument against saber and yet he was the only one who seemed to notice it. His reaction to it in 209 seemed odd.

@paradox- I'm mostly just annoyed that when saber had a chance to do something useful, he basically absconded. A town player would be more likely to at least do something useful, even if he knew he was going out.

Why would you expect him to be doing useful things when he didn't know he was about to be banned? Also he made some very long posts in a claimed attempt to analyze scum. Is that just out the window now that he's not here to defend himself?

[Sanhora]

The second paragraph of post 320 is way too scummy. If you wonder why, please pay attention to the bolded:

@Paradox: To answer your question real quick,

I had the idea in my head that replacing under pressure is commonly thought of as a scumtell. I was obviously wrong, hence my unvote

. This is my first game as town in which someone has replaced in after the first few days, so I don't have much of meta with it,

but I do tend to think that there are game-related motives for requesting a replacement

. It's just my mind set.

Sorry I'm just not seeing why.

Then let me reveal you a secret. And as it's just been Christmas, it's for free
Note how the bolded sentences show that BMC thinks something is a scumtell, but because nobody agrees, he drops it. This is called: Pleasing others. It's done by scum to come across as part of the crowd, especially if a certain action/statement of theirs gave scummy vibes to the other players.

[hewitt]

Okay I am really sorry for my absence. But imagine my surprise when I return 11 days after not posting and find only...2 pages to catch up on.

Man, I would hate to lynch a replacement right off the bat, but I think saberwolf was really scummy. Anyone got advice for me?

This is questionable to me.

Paradoxombie raised a very good point about Lowell's flip-flopiness and I can't wait to hear Lowell's defense of that.

Jazzmyn in a game where we lynch one player a day how about you narrow down your scum list instead of leaving so much room for you to flip-flop around.

Unvote: Flava Flave

Right now I'm not willing to lynch a player who I feel like is making active contributions. This game has been quickly dying and we're definitely going to need players who are going to actively contribute in this game.

That being said I'm kind of jumping right on a wagon due to another players scumhunting (which I rarely ever do) but I feel that Paradoxombie made a really good case on Lowell and to me Lowell went kind of 100% unnoticed in this game. He's pretty much numero uno on my most unforgettable list.

Vote: Lowell

[bigmc109]

I managed to find a free few minutes to catch-up and post.

@Sanhora: That's what you wanted me to answer? Haven't I answered this like five times already? Dank's quote said I was taking advantage of a situation and being ignorant. Was I being ignorant? Clearly. Was I taking advantage of a situation? No, I was being ignorant. In fact, "being ignorant" was a perfect description of my vote there. I'm relatively new, I was wrong, move on. And to be honest, I still think it's possible that MR-scum flaked under pressure, but it's such an evidence-less possibility that I'd rather go for Saber who has been scummy throughout the game.

I'd also like to note that the deadline is in 3 days and we need a majority to lynch. I don't know if no lynch is any good at all in this sentence, but I don't think it's something we should do unless

no one

seems scummy. It shouldn't happen just because more than one person seems scummy.

[curiouskarmadog]

also, your 99% confidence in a Bigmc lynch seems unrealistic to me.

noted.

[Jazzmyn]

And yes, Jazz, please post the longer version.

Glad you asked. I was actually working on a longer version from my game notes last night and intended to post it today anyway, because when I posted last night, it was around 3 a.m. my time and I wasn't up to going through all of it then.

Dana/Ginz: highly suspicious for extreme lurking, on the part of both the original player and the replacement. Ginz made only 5 posts during his tenure in the game, and danakillsu has made only 3 posts since replacing in on Dec. 17 (none of any substance) and has posted nothing at all since Dec. 18. That's a grand total of 8 posts for both players in this slot.
I replace into games quite frequently. I do so because I like playing the game and I don't always want to wait around for a new game to start. Plus, I like having several pages to read and a whole bunch of stuff to analyze. It does not make any sense to me whatsoever to volunteer to replace into an ongoing game, only to lurk up a storm like this. Thus, I am suspicious that the replacement got a scum role and is trying to fly under the radar like the original player did, instead of playing the game in a pro-town fashion. So, this isn't a "lurker lynch" that I'm advocating but a "replacement lurker" lynch because I think it's more suspicious than an original lurker.


Flava/saber: highly suspicious for outlandishly scummy behaviour on the part of the original player (saber), examples of which are too numerous to list. Flava's in a tough position, I realize, but I cannot overlook his predecessor's conduct just because he got banned from the site. I'm afraid that I will never be comfortable with saber's slot in this game and will never be confident enough of his alignment without seeing his flip. I know it sucks for the replacement - and huge respect to Flava for replacing such a scummy player, it's tough to do and good on you for volunteering - but that's how I feel. Then there are Flava's posts, of course, which haven't impressed me. Saying that CKD and hewitt are "obvtown" when he was "about page 5" was just ridiculous, and saying that hewitt was "actively scumhunting" is not borne out by the facts. He also said he would have modkilled his predecessor - nice distancing. Then he says that he got up to around page 9, but he was "just not into the read" which is pretty weak. After replacing into a game, one is supposed to be "into the read" - that's why one replaces into a game, no? He then made a substantive post at 328, but really it was mostly a bunch of useless questions, light on analysis, and called out players for doing things that his predecessor had done much more egregiously.

curiouskarmadog: suspicious for his early vote on the saber wagon, then backing off when bigmc voted saber to L-2, claiming that it was L-1 (which it wasn't) and using that misrep as an excuse to unvote; followed by defending saber before eventually (not until 282) going off on saber, but that wasn't until

after

saber was banned and in that post CKD's talk about saber's stupid "bet" and about saber talking about other games comes far too late, and it's as though he's pretending to have just noticed those things for the first time. His righteous indignation in that post just seems fakedy fake fake to me. Then there's his subsequent non-stop defence of the saber slot. None of this gives me a warm fuzzy feeling about CKD. That said, he's right about Lowell's turnaround in Lowell's 296, but still the 'outrage' seems fake. Then there's his post 300 directed to Lynx, which ends with him asking Lynx's views on bigmc (looks like deflecting). Then there's his 305 in which he asks Flava if he was in "our" shoes, whether he would be for or against saber’s lynch. I've read on this site that saying that you would lynch your predecessor is a scum-tell, and this looks to me like a set-up question among scum. Then, after having nothing to say for a while, CKD pops in to say that nothing much is going on but again defends saber's slot, saying, "why not vote someone who is actually scummy and not just an ass". Well, saber sure looked scummy to me, so I don't know why CKD is so darned sure that he was just an 'ass'; and then there's his claim to 99% certainty as to bigmc's alignment as scum. As I read the game setup, this was a Day 1 start, so this strikes me as too over-confident by half for a townie.

Lowell: suspicious for his weird turnaround on saber, as pointed out by others, and for his low content level, only 10 posts all game. Lurker McLowellLurkerson.

Hewitt: suspicious for his early over-defensiveness, for his silly posts supporting CKD's erroneous claim that saber was at L-1 when he was actually at L-2, for his odd interaction with saber around the 149 mark, and then his abrupt turnaround to put saber at L-1 himself, and his subsequent wishy washy interaction with saber after that. Possible scum slip in his post 239 when he says "if saber flips scum" instead of "if saber flips town". Then there is the fact that after putting saber at L-1, which implicitly means that you want someone to hammer the player that you've put at L-1, hewitt expressly says that he doesn't want Budja to hammer saber when Budja indicated a willingness to do so. If hewitt was town and genuinely believed in his L-1 vote, why would he object to Budja hammering? Makes no sense to me. Then he starts waffling on saber again after that. Too much wishy-washiness for my liking.

Scott: suspicious for suggesting a lurker lynch on page 3, and for being pretty lurktastic himself subsequently, with only 14 posts up to Dec 16 and then nothing until Dec 21 when he says he will catch up (he hasn't) and nothing since. Mostly a gut read on this one.

Also, what do you think of Budja replacing out?

I don't know anything about the reasons for him doing so, but I assume that it is due to personal circumstances, so I hope that things are okay. Beyond that, I'm just glad to replace in.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

But you haven't even told us who you want lynched and why.

See above.

And if you didn't notice, my vote is still where my predecessor left it, which should tell you pretty clearly who I want lynched. I would move it to one of a few other players if necessary as the deadline approaches, but it's still where I think it is best placed for now.

Regards,
Jazz