Big Brother Mafia - Town wins!

[Sironigous]

Vote Snow_Bunny
Vote bv

Aforementioned reasons...

...That's all you've got to say?

yeah sorry; can't say much ATM as I'm on an iTouch for this V/LA

[Sironigous]

You guys do know I mean my aforementioned reasons, right? K was asked already...

Sir, if you're picked as HoH, who do you put up then and why?

Hey neat!

For sure, my first nomination would be

Snow_Bunny

-
for no means did I think of her not scummy (I thought of Sly as scummier).

This would be for all the aforementioned reasons:
-acknowledging herself as a useless floater

Interesting too if Sly is scum... If he's not I guess it's null.

Snow_bunny - seems pro-Town. Light contributions so far, but nothing stands out as scummy or anti-town to me. Could snow be genius scum flying way below the radar?

My second nomination is variable... If Sly is scum it would be

saberwolf/BV

-

Primarily based on saberwolf...

Remember, saberwolf was the TOP pick pre-HOH period - Sly even said he would nominate him. Somehow he managed to slide by without even a nomination. He hasn't said much different unto this point (heh). I see no reason for them not to be connected.

If Sly is town, I have no idea at the moment to be honest.

[Kmd4390]

Nom count:

Snow -5- bv, Animorph, hewitt, Sir, pablito
Animorph -3- Crazy, bv, Finch
Kast -2- Crazy, Animorph
Finch -2- hewitt, pablito
Llama -1- Snow
bv -1- Sir
Sir -1- Finch

Still need noms from:
Llamafluff
PaltryExcuse
snow_bunny- still need one more.
Kast

Things that stand out:
-Snow posting one nom, but has yet to post another while most everyone has given one.
-Animorph saying "random people" need to go up.
-Pablito's noms being identical to Hewitt's.
-Pablito NOT nomming Animorph, who he has seemed to have suspected all game.
-No Paltry noms.
-Support for a Sir eviction earlier, yet Finch is the only Sir vote so far.
-Not impressed with Sir's noms (BV and Snow)
-2 Kast votes that seem to come out of nowhere

I want everyone's thoughts on Paltry ASAP

[PaltryExcuse]

My Noms:

Vote: Animorpherv1

I can re-iterate what I and others have said, but the guy has provided little to nothing. He comes in and nominates Kast... oddly enough. The reasoning? Others are pro-town, and Kast is a random choice. At this point, you're going with a random choice? That's dangerous.

Vote: Sironigous

A) I still don't think he's provided much in the way of scumhunting.
B) Upon looking back, I really don't like his reasons for wanting SensFan nominated.

Sensfan - expecting someone other than SlySly to be nominated for HoH after coming back to the game less than 2 days before deadline. The fact he's attacking SlySly now makes it even worse. (of course, this might change after he answers my previous post)

SensFan wanted to get someone else nominated for HoH because of his opinion on SlySly (which has been revealed to be correct). It's not like when you

need

a lynch on Day 1 and everyone begins bandwagoning. This was a nom for HoH, and SensFan wanted SlySly up for eviction. I don't see how either of these reasons were legitimate for a nomination.

To my best friend for life, Kmd4390:

Paltry is obviously Sly's scumbuddy.

Why exactly? The guy wanted me lynched since Day 1 when I vetoed his nomination.

He was distancing.

It's more the way you completely turned your stance on him when he started to take heat.

I don't think that pre-SensFan blow up SlySly is the same as post. Why?
Initially, he agreed with me on valuing scumhunting over meta, which many were voting on.
He was scumhunting, and asking pointed questions.
Before, he had saber as a nom, as well as possibly SensFan.

His reaction to SensFan coming back was atrocious.
He then nominated people who I thought were pro-town, almost completely disregarding anything anyone else had said.
Upon the veto, he put up another 'lurker' / flaker because of unconfirmed 'connections' by a player he actually wanted to put up.
Basically, when SlySly started playing out his hand, I changed my opinion on him, and it wasn't as sudden as you'd like to think. When he was up I still had wishy-washy feelings on the guy. I couldn't decide if he was irrational town or scum.

I want everyone's thoughts on Paltry ASAP

He's awesome-sauce and I know he's town.

[hewitt]

Actually, as I was just writing out my explanation as to why I thought I was gutsy I realized that it really wasn't gutsy at all. If Paltry and SlySly are Chenbots together and SlySly nominated a more favorably pro-town player for eviction that would give Paltry the excuse to waste one of the town's vetoes early and look seemingly pro-town for it.

That basically sums up my thoughts on Paltry right now.

[Mr Finch]

Well that's not really my fault if you can't defend yourself. Why would you have waited late to bus? It would've made more sense for you to vote earlier that way you wouldn't get accused of just hopping on the bandwagon. And so far you seem to be the only one confused by what I said so don't say that I'm trying to confuse the town.

"I can't" defend was probably the wrong wording. Try "I won't" - there is no case to argue. I have no connection with Sly except that we are/were in the same game.

The most anti-town SEEMING player. Just because a player seems anti-town doesn't mean that they're most likely to be scum, come on, that's just Mafia basics.

Thanks for the clarification. I may have joined the site just over three years ago but this is my 5th game in total. The other four (one ongoing) have been newbie games and one of those I replaced into very very late. This is my first "proper" game and it's a huge learning curve for me.

@KMD - On Paltry? Far more town looking than lots of other players but I still don't like the really early waste of the POV. I'm not sure I can agree with the Paltry/Sly link that Hewitt has come up with.

[hewitt]

"I can't" defend was probably the wrong wording. Try "I won't" - there is no case to argue. I have no connection with Sly except that we are/were in the same game.

It's easiest for me to find connections Sly either did or didn't make in order to find who's on his scumteam. I think there's most likely a like between you two based on his interactions with everybody in this game compared to his interactions with you.

[Kmd4390]

Ok, so Sly/Paltry/Finch make up the Chenbots.

Question:
Would we rather evict a Chenbot today or take a shot at the other group? Or does it even matter?

[hewitt]

I think perhaps we should nominate a Chenbot and a player who is most likely to be part of the second scumteam. That way if we're not sure come eviction time we can always fall back on the Chenbot.

Or we evict a Chenbot today and most likely the last Chenbot or a player who won't nominate the last Chenbot is tapped as HoH and the second scumteam will be targeted tomorrow anyways. This might be the better plan just in case we're for some reason incorrect about the make-up of the Chenbot team.

[animorpherv1]

I'd rather evict chenbots first, since there down one already.

[LlamaFluff]

vote ani

(prefered)

vote snow

to make it all 'official' even though ive said it

Will reread PE later even though I dont remember much of a read on him. Have to go to the damn dentest in about 20 minutes.

Whoever has HoH needs to claim.

[PaltryExcuse]

Ok, so Sly/Paltry/Finch make up the Chenbots.

No. Just no.
A) You claim that there was no reason for my change in opinion on Sly / it was a drastic shift. I've given you my reasons, and shown it was not a drastic shift.
B) You claim that Sly was distancing himself for me by using the EXACT arguments he was using against me. That I used the veto in some elaborate scheme from the pre-game, and that I only did it to look pro-town.
C) You ignore the likely possibility that instead of targetting or ignoring his scumbuddies, he put them in neutral positions.

Why would scum willingly put themselves at the forefront of EVERY MAJOR DECISION early on in the game? It just seems foolhardy. In a game with 14 people, and no night phases, scum has to last multiple lynches and what you are proposing says that the Chenbots willingly put their entire team on the line for some risky gamble. A risky gamble that could be easily seen through. You haven't tried to dispute my arguments about how my reasoning on Sly is logical, only re-stating that I have to be because you said so.

Sly's case on a kmd/Paltry scum team:
1) Paltry used the veto on kmd.
2) kmd's attack on Paltry was distancing.

Kmd's case on a Sly/Paltry scum team:
1) Paltry used the veto.
2) Sly's attack on Paltry was distancing.

Was Sly so transparent as to reveal this massive gameplan to the entire game?

Ask yourself: Why did Sly pass you, Kmd, the HoH out of everyone else?

@Kmd: Who'd you pass the veto to? A.K.A.: Who has the veto?

[Kmd4390]

Paltry,

to A:
I didn't say there was no reason. I think the reason is that he started to take heat and you didn't want to look bad defending your buddy.
to B:
Meh. I'm not too sure about the veto, but it does fit with Sly's style to put up bad noms knowing that you had the veto and then attack you expecting to be lynched hoping to make you come out looking better or something stupid like that.
to C:
Who do you think classifies as a "neutral position" from Sly's points of view?

In response to your "cases":
Try again. It's your turnaround stance on Sly that mostly has me sold. Sly didn't help things though by assuming in every attack he made that scum distance/bus all the time and he was attacking you kind of softly.

Why I got HoH:
Don't know, don't care. It doesn't help me personally to try to figure that out.

[PaltryExcuse]

Paltry,

to A:
I didn't say there was no reason. I think the reason is that he started to take heat and you didn't want to look bad defending your buddy.
to B:
Meh. I'm not too sure about the veto, but it does fit with Sly's style to put up bad noms knowing that you had the veto and then attack you expecting to be lynched hoping to make you come out looking better or something stupid like that.

So it also fits in Sly's style to reveal this veto using strategy to the whole town? That's the thing. You're assuming that Sly not only used this strategy but then told the whole town what he was doing by blaming you for it instead.

to C:
Who do you think classifies as a "neutral position" from Sly's points of view?

Mr. Finch: Sly never said much about him, and seemed to agree with him at times and others not so much. They kept a distance.
Sironigous: He was labelled a VI by Sly. After that, contact is non-existent and doesn't even really respond to Sironigous.

In response to your "cases":
Try again. It's your turnaround stance on Sly that mostly has me sold. Sly didn't help things though by assuming in every attack he made that scum distance/bus all the time and he was attacking you kind of softly.

Why I got HoH:
Don't know, don't care. It doesn't help me personally to try to figure that out.

My 'turnaround stance' is:
A) Logical from a town point of view.
B) Much more gradual than you keep implying.

And how was his attack soft?
He repeatedly attacked me, tried to make a case, and then nominated me for a lynch. Others have questioned me also (Hewitt, Pablito) and then not even nominated me. In comparison to him, they were soft.

[Kmd4390]

I woulnd't be surprised to see Sly do that.

You must have missed the part where I said Finch is Sly's other buddy.

Your turnaround is more logical from a scum point of view than town. And it isn't gradual. Ctrl+F "Sly" in your ISO posts. Put a + next to the positive comments and a - next to the negative ones. It looks something like +++++++++++--------------. Gradual would be more like +++++--+--+-+------------. That's not what it is though. At one point it switches straight from positive to negative.

Hmm. I missed that he voted you. Ok, guess it wasn't that soft.

Hewitt and Pablito are still alive. Sly has flipped scum. If I'm going to act based on connections I see, they will be connections to Sly. (Otherwise, I'd have already suggested evicting Pablito/Animorph, but I haven't even mentioned that connection until now while proving my point).

[pablito]

In no particular order:

@pablito.

Quick on the Sly wagon? Not at all. Ani was even quicker than me and I wrote:

I didn't know what my access was going to be like so I voted. I was happy with a Sly vote so I placed it. You haven't called Ani out for it though, but stuck with Snow_bunny.

For not really having poked and prodded at Sly before, it sure was a quick vote. Ani is always first to vote, he did nothing much different that time around.

If I was bussing would I not have waited until very late (excluding my limited access) to vote or even vote the other way?

With Sly, I don't think we can accurately hypothesize what his scum partners would've done. With the entire town on Sly's case and very few if any defending him, it was very appropriate for his scum partners to jump on him early to hide in the wagon. Even if momentum had gone toward lynching snow bunny (assuming snow and sly are not partners), I would still think that sly's scum partners would've still pushed hard for a sly lynch. This defense sounds weak and is trying to excuse himself hard and not take any credit for what he actually did do with the sly wagon.

Things that stand out:
-Snow posting one nom, but has yet to post another while most everyone has given one.
-Animorph saying "random people" need to go up.
-Pablito's noms being identical to Hewitt's.
-Pablito NOT nomming Animorph, who he has seemed to have suspected all game.
-No Paltry noms.
-Support for a Sir eviction earlier, yet Finch is the only Sir vote so far.
-Not impressed with Sir's noms (BV and Snow)
-2 Kast votes that seem to come out of nowhere

my noms are identical, but I've been on snow quite early. See D1. Also I use different reasons on Mr Finch. I also happen to mention Sironigous as my #3.

As for not nomming animorph. I have suspected him a lot of the game, and it wasn't until I read my own posts that I've actually seen that I have FOSed him or whatnot, but when I list out my suspicion lists, he's never there, because he always slips my mind. In fact, I mentioned as such in my last post where you did ask me to look at him. So while I've pointed out scummy things he's done, I guess I never took hard value in those points. And looking at the reasons I've pointed out before, ani continues to slip under my radar. It's just that players like Mr Finch and Sironigous have piqued my interest as of late. My failure to ever nominate or suggest animorph is based on my failure to synthesize all of the data I have poked at and realize that ani is on all those lists. I've been focusing on so many of the more interesting nuances in isolation that I hadn't seen the big picture.

I've been harsh on Paltry for his use of veto, but I've said before that his defenses when I've questioned him seem to be coming from a genuine perspective. I don't sense that he thought he was acting foolishly when he used it, but I do not agree with his use. So his actions I still see as scummy, but his defense of it seems towny to me. And therefore he's only in the middle of my suspicion list right now. Either he's been doing fine with his defenses or he's pro-town, but he's not been on my priority list.

I'd much rather see the producers sizzle and get heat, but I would not be opposed to a chenbot going on the block. What I've seen is that when in a 3/3/6 setup and one scum team is demolished early (as in Ultimatum Mafia), then the remaining scum on that team gives up and works for the town's sake. A single chenbot would almost be guaranteed to not win in endgame.

[Snow_Bunny]

Quickly before going up for bed, my other nomination would be

vote ani

. I know I can't say much about it, but reasons are lack of good posts, and mostly that last post about evicting one group first. Selective scumhunting is a good scumtell.

On Paltry? Can't say I find something suspicious on her. I think the use of the POV was a good call (it could be a well designed gambit, but too much wifom for me to go down there). Kmd, why you assume that's one of the scum groups? What are the reasons behind that call?

[Kmd4390]

I don't like that the only thing that people are seeing about Paltry is the veto. I actually didn't have a problem with Paltry's using the veto.

Snow, if you don't know what connections I see between Sly/Paltry/Finch, you need to do a better job of reading my posts.

[PaltryExcuse]

I woulnd't be surprised to see Sly do that.

You must have missed the part where I said Finch is Sly's other buddy.

Nah, I didn't. I agreed with you about Finch, that Sly treated him neutrally. It is just more of a curiosity of why you missed Sly's treatment of Sironigous is all. I don't think Sir is a VI, and considering Zwet and Saber (with Zwet's anti-play and saber's... whatever) were still in the game I thought it was odd, no?

Your turnaround is more logical from a scum point of view than town. And it isn't gradual. Ctrl+F "Sly" in your ISO posts. Put a + next to the positive comments and a - next to the negative ones. It looks something like +++++++++++--------------. Gradual would be more like +++++--+--+-+------------. That's not what it is though. At one point it switches straight from positive to negative.

Not every time I talk about Sly are things distinctly positive or negative. It's easy enough to see that it goes from positive, to neutral, to negative. The middle ground is also possible, and if you include it, I say it's gradual.

Hewitt and Pablito are still alive. Sly has flipped scum. If I'm going to act based on connections I see, they will be connections to Sly. (Otherwise, I'd have already suggested evicting Pablito/Animorph, but I haven't even mentioned that connection until now while proving my point).

I just mentioned them in comparison to Sly's behaviour towards me. You said it was soft (which has been revoked), and I was trying to show you it was anything but.

On Paltry? Can't say I find something suspicious on her. I think the use of the POV was a good call (it could be a well designed gambit, but too much wifom for me to go down there). Kmd, why you assume that's one of the scum groups? What are the reasons behind that call?

I'm not a girl. See symbol below the moose crossing picture...
And seeing as Kmd's main focus for the past page has been me and this connection, I'm surprised you have to ask.

[farside22]

Prodding:

Kast

[pablito]

@Crazy and ani - do you remember that Kast has coup d'etat?

Do you still support nominating kast? why or why not?

[animorpherv1]

I had no idea Kas had the coup'detat in the first place. Nothing changes. In fact, if he uses coup'detat just to save himself, I'd consider it scummy.

[pablito]

Ani - let's say you have pov and you're nominated. would you use it? and for both scenarios (using or not using it) would you look scummy?

[bv310]

I'd rather evict chenbots first, since there down one already.

This right here bothers me. Why would we want to eliminate one scum team over another? If we bring the Producers down one member as well, then we weaken the overall position of the scum.

Say, for example, we evict Snow today and she flips Chenbot. Unless Chenbot 3 does something very obvious to draw attention to himself, then we have almost nothing to go on. We basically have a 50/50 shot with each nom to finish them. If we miss on Day 4, then succeed on Day 5, then we're at 5-3 against the Producers. If we eliminate a Producer today, then we go to 6-2-2, which works out to 8-2 against either scum team. We shouldn't be limiting our hunting to one group.

[Snow_Bunny]

I was going to say something like that. What exactly do you expect to win by lynching me? I know I'm town, and thus my flip would bring nothing good to town. One less townie, and not much info.

A Llama lynch, in the other hand, would bring more useful information, and we might as well get rid of a scum that is making a good job to look townie.