Open 186; Jungle Republic (Game Over)


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Post Post #350 (ISO) » Sun Dec 27, 2009 4:08 pm

Post by hewitt »

Jazzmyn wrote:Hewitt: suspicious for his early over-defensiveness, for his silly posts supporting CKD's erroneous claim that saber was at L-1 when he was actually at L-2, for his odd interaction with saber around the 149 mark, and then his abrupt turnaround to put saber at L-1 himself, and his subsequent wishy washy interaction with saber after that. Possible scum slip in his post 239 when he says "if saber flips scum" instead of "if saber flips town". Then there is the fact that after putting saber at L-1, which implicitly means that you want someone to hammer the player that you've put at L-1, hewitt expressly says that he doesn't want Budja to hammer saber when Budja indicated a willingness to do so. If hewitt was town and genuinely believed in his L-1 vote, why would he object to Budja hammering? Makes no sense to me. Then he starts waffling on saber again after that. Too much wishy-washiness for my liking.
Just going to quickly clear up some misreps in here.

1. Since saber had expressed the possibility of self-hammering as he had in the past I was saying that putting him at L-2 was almost as good as putting him at L-1 considering he might just self-hammer. That was completely valid.
2. Considering we can't talk about ongoing games I don't know how much I can divulge in the "abrupt turnaround" but I will say if you go read my games that I was in with saber you will understand.
3. I said I had an issue with BUDJA hammering not with a hammering in general. And I think I clearly stated my reasonings as to why.
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Town-NightKilled-Loss- 3
Town-Loss- 4
Mafia-Win- 1
Mafia-Loss- 3

Team Win Percentage- 23.08%
Basically...my teams usually lose. How fun is that!
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Post Post #351 (ISO) » Sun Dec 27, 2009 5:07 pm

Post by ZEEnon »

Lowell, danakillsu, dank, and Scott Brosius have been messaged.


Vote Count:

Flava Flave:
dank, Lynx The Antithesis, Jazzmyn, bigmc109
bigmc109:
curiouskarmadog, Lowell, Flava Flave
Lowell:
Paradoxombie, hewitt
Sanhora:
Scott Brosius
Jazzmyn:
Sanhora

Not Voting:
danakillsu

With 12 players alive, it takes 7 to lynch.
Deadline: December 30th, 2009 at approximately 10 p.m.
Last edited by ZEEnon on Sun Dec 27, 2009 5:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Post #352 (ISO) » Sun Dec 27, 2009 5:36 pm

Post by curiouskarmadog »

deadline needs to be updated in vote count
Thanks!
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Post Post #353 (ISO) » Mon Dec 28, 2009 3:11 am

Post by Lowell »

344 is more or less exactly my sentiments towards bigmc. He seems to bring up the idea of scummy things in others, but doesn't back them up until someone pipes up to support him.
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Post Post #354 (ISO) » Mon Dec 28, 2009 3:47 am

Post by hewitt »

Lowell wrote:344 is more or less exactly my sentiments towards bigmc. He seems to bring up the idea of scummy things in others, but doesn't back them up until someone pipes up to support him.
Are you just going to completely ignore the case on you?
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Town-Loss- 4
Mafia-Win- 1
Mafia-Loss- 3

Team Win Percentage- 23.08%
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Post Post #355 (ISO) » Mon Dec 28, 2009 4:55 am

Post by Lowell »

It seems like your post just refers to another post. Can you be more specific?
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Post Post #356 (ISO) » Mon Dec 28, 2009 5:02 am

Post by hewitt »

Paradoxombie wrote:but anyway,
unvote, vote:Lowell
His flipflopping on saber looks damn suspicious to me.

Originally:
Lowell wrote:Anyone unvoting saber after his behavior is crazy.

He's asking for it, and deserves it. More to the point, no one has explained to me why him threatening to self-hammer makes him town.

unvote, vote saber
then:
Lowell wrote:
unvote saber, vote bigmc


115 and 117 are good. I have the same vague dissatisfaction from 114 that saber does.
Lowell wrote:I'm turned around on saber. For whatever reason I'm convinced he's town.
Lowell wrote:dank and saber both look town to me, despite their lover's spats.
suddenly:
Lowell wrote:I think saber's recent behavior deserves a lynch.

I'll give dan a chance to chime in, however.
Lowell wrote:@ckd- saber has been an absolute disaster since the few pages when he was actually helpful. I'll hear out the replacement, but in general I'm not a huge fan of abandoning good wagons just to be nice to replacement.
I want him to be more specific about what behvior by saber merits this most recent change.
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Town-NightKilled-Loss- 3
Town-Loss- 4
Mafia-Win- 1
Mafia-Loss- 3

Team Win Percentage- 23.08%
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Post Post #357 (ISO) » Mon Dec 28, 2009 9:54 am

Post by Lynx The Antithesis »

With the deadline in two days I think it's fairly reasonable to say that the lynch today will come down to either Flava Flave and BigMc. Though I'd like to look further into Lowell, I think Flave is more pressing to deal with today. Any other lynch will be hasty and rushed and will yield much less links to other players. A BigMc or a Flave lynch will reap the most information and these two have the most points against them.

I'd like for every player who is not voting either of these two, to specify whether they are opposed or supportive of the lynching of both of these candidates. If you are voting either of these two, then please make evident if you are for or against the lynch of the other one. Anyone who doesn't comply with this will look suspect in my eyes for not making known where they stand on the two leading lynches for the day.

I prefer Flav's lynch, but I don't really oppose the killing of BigMC. I haven't seen any town tells from him and his votes have seemed rather forced all day.
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Post Post #358 (ISO) » Mon Dec 28, 2009 9:59 am

Post by dank »

Sorry for the lack of posting, haven't been online much.

I agree with lynx, I am perfectly fine with either Flav or MC for today's lynch. I also prefer Flav over MC; Flav's play has not been nearly enough for me to look past saber, but if most of the town is leaning MC, i've got no problem going along with that lynch instead.
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Post Post #359 (ISO) » Mon Dec 28, 2009 6:11 pm

Post by Flava Flave »

Jazzmyn wrote: Flava/saber: highly suspicious for outlandishly scummy behaviour on the part of the original player (saber), examples of which are too numerous to list. Flava's in a tough position, I realize, but I cannot overlook his predecessor's conduct just because he got banned from the site. I'm afraid that I will never be comfortable with saber's slot in this game and will never be confident enough of his alignment without seeing his flip. I know it sucks for the replacement - and huge respect to Flava for replacing such a scummy player, it's tough to do and good on you for volunteering - but that's how I feel. Then there are Flava's posts, of course, which haven't impressed me. Saying that CKD and hewitt are "obvtown" when he was "about page 5" was just ridiculous, and saying that hewitt was "actively scumhunting" is not borne out by the facts. He also said he would have modkilled his predecessor - nice distancing. Then he says that he got up to around page 9, but he was "just not into the read" which is pretty weak. After replacing into a game, one is supposed to be "into the read" - that's why one replaces into a game, no? He then made a substantive post at 328, but really it was mostly a bunch of useless questions, light on analysis, and called out players for doing things that his predecessor had done much more egregiously.
Saber's actions have nothing to do with his alignment. He was trying to get lynched because of his stupid bet.

I had town reads on Hewitt and CKD at that point. Still do. So what?

I'd have modkilled Saber for saying that he was town in all of his games because that's clearly discussing other games. It's in the past though, so whatever.

I am a slow reader. When I got to page 9, it had been an hour or two and I was getting lazy, so I stopped for the day and got back to it when I felt more motivated. What is wrong with that?
Lynx The Antithesis wrote:With the deadline in two days I think it's fairly reasonable to say that the lynch today will come down to either Flava Flave and BigMc. Though I'd like to look further into Lowell, I think Flave is more pressing to deal with today. Any other lynch will be hasty and rushed and will yield much less links to other players. A BigMc or a Flave lynch will reap the most information and these two have the most points against them.
Two questions. What is the case on me? What info would you take from a lynch on Bigmc or myself that wouldn't apply on a lynch of anyone else?
dank wrote:Sorry for the lack of posting, haven't been online much.

I agree with lynx, I am perfectly fine with either Flav or MC for today's lynch. I also prefer Flav over MC; Flav's play has not been nearly enough for me to look past saber, but if most of the town is leaning MC, i've got no problem going along with that lynch instead.
This is VERY weak.
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Post Post #360 (ISO) » Mon Dec 28, 2009 7:25 pm

Post by Lynx The Antithesis »

Flave wrote:Two questions. What is the case on me? What info would you take from a lynch on Bigmc or myself that wouldn't apply on a lynch of anyone else?
Post 302 when I answered CKD outlines my reasons for my vote. The answer to your second question is simple really. BigMc and Saber/you have had the most interactions and connections with players in this game. By being the largest bandwagons you have drawn the most votes. Thus, you can clearily see more links between you two and other players than any other player with the rest of the town. Who do you propose would match you two today that would elicit an equal amount of information from their flip?
Flave wrote:Saber's actions have nothing to do with his alignment. He was trying to get lynched because of his stupid bet.
Don't excuse his behavior with outside related material.
Flave wrote:I had town reads on Hewitt and CKD at that point. Still do. So what?
So according to your chart earlier, you have a town read on Budja, Scott, and Lowell as they were all higher than Hewitt on your list. Three and a half lurkers and CKD are town to you? Why is this? Especially explain Lowell to me who has clearly jumped back and forth on you for pages now.
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Post Post #361 (ISO) » Tue Dec 29, 2009 4:13 am

Post by Lowell »

@hewitt- I feel like I addressed this already. Saber at first struck me as erratic and anti-town, particuarly with his plan to self-hammer. As he fought his way out of that he seemed like he could be useful, then he absconded again at the last moment before actually contributing anything I thought he was going to contribute.
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Post Post #362 (ISO) » Tue Dec 29, 2009 5:22 am

Post by Flava Flave »

Lynx wrote:Post 302 when I answered CKD outlines my reasons for my vote.
So it's 100% based on Saber's actions. Awesome. :roll:
Lynx wrote:BigMc and Saber/you have had the most interactions and connections with players in this game. By being the largest bandwagons you have drawn the most votes. Thus, you can clearily see more links between you two and other players than any other player with the rest of the town. Who do you propose would match you two today that would elicit an equal amount of information from their flip?
Based on your reasoning, any player lynched in any game of mafia would provide an equal amount of information.

Based on what I've seen in this game (a connection between BigMC and Dank, but I'm waiting for a flip before I push that just to be sure), a BigMC lynch provides the most info.
Lynx wrote:Don't excuse his behavior with outside related material.
No, there's no excuse for trying to be lynched in every game you play. Still, it's a null tell.
Lynx wrote:So according to your chart earlier, you have a town read on Budja, Scott, and Lowell as they were all higher than Hewitt on your list. Three and a half lurkers and CKD are town to you? Why is this? Especially explain Lowell to me who has clearly jumped back and forth on you for pages now.
It's the read on got on those players from the posts they did make.

Lowell, I feel has explained himself. He saw what he interpreted as scummy actions, so he voted. Then he saw Saber actually being helpful (which he did just before he was replaced) and changed his mind. There is nothing scummy about logically changing your mind.

Actually, Lowell explains his thought process again in his last post.
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Post Post #363 (ISO) » Tue Dec 29, 2009 8:17 am

Post by dank »

Lowell, can you explain "seeming to be useful"?
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Post Post #364 (ISO) » Tue Dec 29, 2009 9:46 am

Post by Lynx The Antithesis »

Flave wrote:Lynx wrote:
Post 302 when I answered CKD outlines my reasons for my vote.


So it's 100% based on Saber's actions. Awesome.
Well it shouldn't be a suprise considering Saber was playing your role for a majority of the game.
Flave wrote:Based on your reasoning, any player lynched in any game of mafia would provide an equal amount of information.

Based on what I've seen in this game (a connection between BigMC and Dank, but I'm waiting for a flip before I push that just to be sure), a BigMC lynch provides the most info.


No certainly not. For instance, a lynch on like scott who has lurked as of late and had a minimal amount of posting would provide us with the bare minimum. Not every player has commented on Scott so we wouldn't be able to read as many ties between him and the town obviously.
Flave wrote:No, there's no excuse for trying to be lynched in every game you play. Still, it's a null tell
This is a stretch. You know for a fact that he's tried to be lynched in every game of his?
Flave wrote:Lowell, I feel has explained himself. He saw what he interpreted as scummy actions, so he voted. Then he saw Saber actually being helpful (which he did just before he was replaced) and changed his mind. There is nothing scummy about logically changing your mind.

Actually, Lowell explains his thought process again in his last post.
But the problem is that Saber made all of three posts to create this change. Most of which were very minimal and not enough to influence such a major change from a town read to completely deserving of a lynch. Let's see:

Post 267
Lowell wrote:dank and saber both look town to me, despite their lover's spats.
Post 268
Saberwolf wrote:I think CKD and Lowell should join me on this BW, then we're tied 6-6, and we can have an ultimate BW showdown
Post 271
Saberwolf wrote:so what did I sow?


Post 275
Saberwolf wrote:I can't quit, or I lose my bet. You already know that hewitt.
Post 296
Lowell wrote:I think saber's recent behavior deserves a lynch.

I'll give dan a chance to chime in, however.
Flave, do you not find it odd that those three small posts caused a complete 180 on Saber? Or do you believe those three posts by Saber are scummy enough to warrant such an abrupt shift?
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Post Post #365 (ISO) » Tue Dec 29, 2009 9:49 am

Post by Lynx The Antithesis »

Lowell, answer my question in post 360 that is directed towards everyone, please.

What in those three posts by Saber made you completely alter your stance on his alignment?

And are you reading through the game or just skimming? You've missed many questions that I and other players have posed to you throughout these last several pages.
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Post Post #366 (ISO) » Tue Dec 29, 2009 2:09 pm

Post by Flava Flave »

Lynx wrote:No certainly not. For instance, a lynch on like scott who has lurked as of late and had a minimal amount of posting would provide us with the bare minimum. Not every player has commented on Scott so we wouldn't be able to read as many ties between him and the town obviously.
Ok, let's play this game then. Your scenario, Scott gets lynched. Well, for this to happen, someone would have to decide "let's lynch Scott. Here's my case" Then 6 more players would have to jump on. Even assuming no one at all jumps in to defend Scott, there's 7 players who we have more info on than before. Throw in anyone who defends Scott or agrees with the wagon without voting or comments in any other way and we have more info on them too. Then if Scott is scum, we go back and look at both the final vote count AND Scott's posts and maybe we can find his buddy or buddies.

Tell me how that scenario gives us any less info than a few more people saying "meh, Saber was scummy" and voting me.
Lynx wrote:This is a stretch. You know for a fact that he's tried to be lynched in every game of his?
No stretch here. Do some research. One game, we was put at L-1 on Page 1 and self-hammered. A few other games, he played how he did here. Hell, some of them, he never went through the semi-useful "here are a few decent cases" phase. That's why he was banned in the first place. Ruining games by trying to be lynched in all of them just to be able to say he didn't flake and win his stupid bet with Animorph.

And I'll let Lowell answer for himself. I have a town read on him so far, but I'm not going to go out of my way to defend him just yet.
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Post Post #367 (ISO) » Tue Dec 29, 2009 3:16 pm

Post by Lynx The Antithesis »

The difference is time, Flave. We've discussed you and BigMC at length for pages now. Deadline's in one day. For a wagon to build up on someone this quickly we wouldn't have the same quantity of information. Sure every lynch provides information, just some more than others. People would rationalize their votes as necessary in order to meet deadline. This is why I dislike letting this go down to the wire like this. You have only presented BigMc as a substitute for yourself which is what exactly I have done. In my mind, all you can do now is prove to us that he is the better lynch than yourself.

As for the Saberwolf, I've only played two games with him. One was his first game and he played nothing like he does now. And this one where I've seen nothing, but scummy play. Now you may claim that he was deliberately trying to be lynched...I didn't see that. All I saw was him toss around empty threats of hammering himself which I beilieve were in order to avoid any real buildup on himself. I've stressed this multiple times already. You seem reasonable and it's a shame you didn't start in this role over Saber. His play today is just completely weighing down your spot and it'd be nice to let you have a fresh start as a replacement, but I just can't see that happening here.
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Post Post #368 (ISO) » Tue Dec 29, 2009 3:26 pm

Post by Jazzmyn »

Lynx The Antithesis wrote:I'd like for every player who is not voting either of these two, to specify whether they are opposed or supportive of the lynching of both of these candidates. If you are voting either of these two, then please make evident if you are for or against the lynch of the other one.
I didn't get a strong scum read from bigmc initially. I re-read the game thread several times and still didn't get a strong scum read from him. The parts where I found him suspicious were the part where he wasn't paying attention to the vote count while voting saber early on, and the part where he voted for MR because MR asked to be replaced and bigmc claimed that that was a scum tell and he didn't even want to wait for a replacement to come in. He claimed that he thought that was a universally accepted scumtell etc., but when it garnered some suspicion towards him, he backed off, saying that he thought that's how it was but since he was wrong, he would unvote.

Those things were bugging me, so I went and read some of bigmc's completed games.

Turns out, he knows full well that newb townies sometimes ask to be replaced when they feel overwhelmed, and he knew that because as scum in a previous game, he helped to get a townie lynched on Day 1 for, in part, asking to replace out of a game, and argued that replacing out was indicative of the townie being scum.

So, his story about why he was voting for MR for asking to be replaced, and his claim to "ignorance" of townies asking to be replaced is bogus.


Unvote
Vote: bigmc


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Post Post #369 (ISO) » Tue Dec 29, 2009 3:43 pm

Post by Flava Flave »

Well, I've given my points against Bigmc. CKD has as well. It's there so there's no point restating it.

Saber does know how to play. He has done so in the past. It's after he made the bet with Animorph that he became a useless VI. All of his games after that bet, he's tried to be lynched just as a "loophole" for the bet.

I'm too lazy to read the whole 62 page game, but if Jazz's meta point is accurate against Bigmc, that's pretty damning. Pretending not to have certain knowledge is not something that a non-VI town aligned player does.

We need 3 more Bigmc votes within the next 24 hours. Let's go guys, we don't want to No Lynch.
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Post Post #370 (ISO) » Tue Dec 29, 2009 3:52 pm

Post by Lynx The Antithesis »

I agree that those are pretty incriminating points if they are true on BigMc.

Jazz, could you highlight a particular post in that game where he uses the replacing out idea to pursue someone as scummy?

Flave, I think we only need a majority for a deadline lynch. I will vote accordingly though in order to avoid a No Lynch, but I may not have internet after noon tomorrow.
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Post Post #371 (ISO) » Tue Dec 29, 2009 4:05 pm

Post by Flava Flave »

Rules wrote: If there is no majority by deadline, a no lynch occurs
Lynx, you are thinking plurality (player with the most votes is lynched). Majority means more than half. If we don't have 7 players voting for a lynch by deadline, we no lynch.
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Post Post #372 (ISO) » Tue Dec 29, 2009 4:28 pm

Post by Jazzmyn »

The mod announces that the townie has asked for replacement on page 26, post 656.
One of bigmc's scum partners posts "Le Sigh" in post 657.
Bigmc posts at 658 saying, "I'm not sure if this is supposed to indicate disappointment, but I think this is the final nail in the coffin. I don't see any way GD is not scum."
Scumpartner posts at 659: "I hate replacements in general. Doubly so when its someone who I am more than reasonably certain is scum."
Another townie posts at 666: "Word. Let's hang him now so we don't have to deal with a slimy replacement."
Bigmc responds in 667: "I agree, and I don't really think the replacement is going to have a very good time trying to explain GD's actions. After replacing out while still active on the site in general I don't see any reason to believe he's pro-town."
And it goes on from there, over the next several pages.

(Later, the player who was replacing out claimed a power role and all of the townies on the wagon and bigmc's scumbuddies unvote him, but bigmc never did, just kept saying he didn't believe the claim, etc. The townie ended up not replacing out and getting lynched anyway, but the point here is that bigmc knew perfectly well that the player was a townie and that he requested replacement due to being overwhelmed, not due to being scum, so his claims to the contrary in this game are bogus.)

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Post Post #373 (ISO) » Tue Dec 29, 2009 4:49 pm

Post by Lowell »

Love post 368. Glad someone did the research I was too lazy to do, and that it confirms bigmc's unfrozen caveman lawyer is a bit of an act.

In other news, Flave is buddying up to me like no one's business. In 362 he notes offhand how I explained myself adequately in response to something or another, then later corrects himself in 366 and claims not to want to speak for me. Um, thanks? I'll take it as flattery for now that he wants me to be happy (also since we need to lynch bigmc today), but his seeking to appease his prior enemies (or his prior persona's-enemies) is a little obvious.
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Lynx The Antithesis
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Post Post #374 (ISO) » Tue Dec 29, 2009 4:51 pm

Post by Lynx The Antithesis »

I think you're right, Flave. With this amount of indecision and inactivity, we're definitely headed for a no lynch then at this rate.

Makes sense, Jazzmyn. I'll give BigMc until noon tomorrow to see how he responds to this large level of evidence against him before I switch. If he fails to post or his defense is weak I will be voting him tomorrow.
If you got it flaunt it.
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