Mafia 104 - Revenge of the Crimson King - Game!

[Merkabah]

@Tar: I take it the head you had a supertell on hasn't come through yet, eh?

[xRECKONERx]

I don't know. Like I said, I've been posting from my phone the past few days. I'll look more in depth when I get home

[Merkabah]

@Raivann: What do you think about this "new" information about probably only one scumteam?

[Percy]

OK, just wrapping some things up.

These NK's are consistant with a serial killer (or another vig) that is hunting for scum and a large scum group that is not.

I think that a second scumfaction (who have known they were one of the least 2 scumfactions from D1) would have a great deal of interest in getting rid of scummy players, also trackers. Just as much as an SK. Also, I don't think a town-aligned Vig (a second one at that) would hit RF.

And for the record, when I say scumfaction or scumgroup, I am fuly allowing for the possibility that this "faction" or "group" is only one member (my mathematical side coming out, it seems). I haven't tried to link any players as a potential non-Jupiter scumteam. Socrates apparently thinks I am:

The alternative is that me and Merkabah are members of an unrevealed faction, and since I am not, and I think Merkabah is town, I have no alternative but to give the most epic of shrugs at the suggestion.

Why does granting the premise "We have a second scumgroup of at least two people" immediately prove that

you

and

Merkabah

are on a team together?
Why you? Why Merkabah?

This all started after Merkabah's suggestion that those who were voting muh weren't considering the setup properly, and I've got my back up about it. Ruling muh out of Jupiter mafia is fine, but ruling him out as a non-town-aligned player altogether goes too far, imo. Playing down the reality of non-Jupiter scum was a strange choice, and linking it with muh discussion remains mystifying to me.

I also don't think this "focus fire" approach of Socrates' is going to help us in the long run, simply because in a "let's find and kill the Jupiter guys!" beatdown, the second killing faction are indistinguishable from the town.

If there's a second Mafia (a possibility supported by the revealed Mafia having a factional name), he's in it. If the second killer is an SK (which would make sense with the "brutally murdered" kill method and choice of players to kill with it - Vig is a traditional SK claim), muh is town. No middle ground here.

I don't see why muh couldn't be an SK...?

However,

Summary:
- Massclaim is worth considering, though it won't be absolutely necessary for 1-2 days.
- Muh lynch has a few major possible benefits; it's a decent test of whether the setup has multiple Mafia factions, it makes sure that we're not counting on muh to make a decision at endgame (given his apparent lack of will to play pro-town, that might be worth considering), and it would get several extremely prolific people pushing a muh lynch to SHUT THE FUCK UP about him. That last point is probably the best point to lynching muh - I don't see the setup advancing until he's dealt with, either by replacement or by lynch (he's not likely to get NKed). Percy in particularly should recognize what I'm afraid will happen if we leave muh alive.

On the other hand... despite his horribly scummy play, muh is not Jupiter Mafia (two Jupiter Mafiosos both pushed for his predecessor's lynch in a fashion that STRONGLY suggests they weren't bussing, and my top candidate for surviving Jupiter Mafia has been doing the same for three days). Nor is he SK; I don't think he's smart enough to have made either set of kills on his own. The only way he's scum is if he's from an unrevealed faction, and there are several other players (Raivann, Vaya, and Riceballtail all come to mind) who I think are considerably more likely to be scum than muh (since they could be Jupiter Mafia).

I'll make this clear - without a dead scum from a second faction, the only grounds I see for a muh lynch are policy lynch grounds. Those may actually be strong enough to lynch (I'm thinking about what muh would do to endgame, and it's not making me a happy *camper*), especially given that our vig is dead, but I'm not going to commit to such a path without thinking it over first - especially when there's several other players that need to die as well.

Case in point: Raivann

Vote: Raivann

This is some serious goodposting, I really enjoyed it.

Since Wicked is resuming control, I'm going to

Unvote

and let him take the helm when he gets back. I'm still concerned about Jupiter tunnel vision, but Raivann looks

really

good as Jupiter, so that's where my vote would go.

@Merkabah1069: I think I've answered this question above.

I'd also like to

read

the responses to the rest of my questions in my replacing-in post for my own curiosity, but I think they're good questions and those who have yet to answer should respond

Well that was short and sweet. Thanks all, go town!

[Trumpet of Doom]

@Trumpet

: To what extent are your townreads actually townreads, and not just "not-Jupiter" reads?

Honestly, I'm not sure. Socrates' 1065 is sorta making me think if there's a second scum group, he's in it, and I'm starting to have similar doubts about Merk, as well.

But you know that because of my successful protect town victory was sealed

Uh... false. The cop's N4 investigation and my crappy play D4 conspired to give town a victory. You really didn't help town all that much.

If there IS one scum group, they would be doing everything in their power to play up paranoia about the presence of a second scum group because it makes their lives MUCH easier.

Problem: If Jupiter's really the only scumgroup, how are they going to know? Also (warning: WIFOM ahead), if you're Jupiter, doing something that you're saying only group 2 would do is a creative way to avoid being though of as Jupiter.

Also, I feel that it is necessary to share that only one of the NK's went down on Rayfrost. We didn't have a double up on the NK's, because if we did then there would be two kill flavors listed next to his name. So either the second killer(s) forgot to send in a kill or it got prevented.

[Socrates]'s just dropped information I don't think he could have as town without asking the mod (and he gave us no indication that he asked the mod whether a player killed by multiple kills would show all the kill methods involved or just one; I've seen the latter used in normals before).

Just straight up asking the MOD is an undervalued action, Tar. Plus, I've seen other games that work in that fashion.

Socrates, I think you're missing the point Tar was trying to make. If you did in fact ask the mod, why didn't you say it at the time? And I've definitely played in at least one game where the mod said "I'll only give one kill flavor per death, regardless of how many kills target the dead person."

...you know, I could kinda see Socrates in any faction except SK.

Also: If we do decide to lynch muh today, I'd be willing to join the wagon.

[Merkabah]

Actually, it's pretty easy to know kinda what you're up against as scum. Tar can attest to this as well, but in NY92; we (Amished here) were part of a 4 man scumgroup in a 27? person game. That's well under the normal "20-30%" scum ratio that you can expect, so we could scumhunt knowing that there was gonna be another faction of some sort out there. Knowing your own size and your abilities you can pretty well judge the rest of the game.

If you're large and have a lot of powerful abilities, you know that the town will similarly have a lot of abilities that you have to watch out for. You've been around for a year by now; I thought that this was rather basic to the concept of mafia.

It's not even limited to large games; if you're in a 2 man scumteam in a mini and you don't have much for power; you know damn well that the town doesn't have much either (mountainous).

[Pads]

As I established yesterday, Muh is clearly not a part of Jupiter Mafia. If Exalt would defend MonkeyMan, there's no reason to think he would bus Swimmer.

If Muh was on a 2nd Mafia team it's unlikely he would have quite so many people calling him scum. He's not really scummy, so much as playing to the detriment of the town. Often when scum gang up on a lurker they forget that it's an unreadable player they're attacking, and start attaching scummy traits to their desire to lynch him. And that's exactly what it looks like is going on here.

My money is on him being either town or neutral. The fact that he's more or less not playing the game at all makes me lean towards neutral. But we can do better today.


The Muh assailants:

xReckonerx - Probably the most vocal muh opponent, but his continuous calls for replacement suggests that he just wants information. Looks town.

Zoraster - His vote is a 180 flip from yesterday, but he hasn't actually called muh scummy. Looks like testing the wagon to me, always good for town points in my book.

Trumpet of Doom - Some reasonable thoughts in that post (one of which I'll talk about in a sec), but the muh suspicion seems tacked on the end to leave the door open to hop on the wagon.

Wickedestjr - (I'm using 'Wicked' to refer to both Percy and Wicked) Yeah - conjured suspicion of muh.

Quite aside from that, I found S4L scummy, especially due to skittishness and stubborness I felt from the posts

Skittishness and stubborness are awful close to being opposites of each other, so I fail to see how they combine to make Swimmer scummy. Besides, I find stubborness to be a townie trait. Wicked is also far too fascinated with the multiscum setup, and his posts reek of scum sowing seeds of confusion. Easily my top pick for scum today.

Raivann - I had been ready to put Raivann in the same 'batteries not included' bin with Empking, Vaya, Muh, Kise, and Slicey, but Trumpet brought up something I hadn't noticed before.


@Raivann

unvote, Vote:Cyberbob

===[]

[]===

Could you explain this post to me, specifically the penis duel that seems to be going on here?

You denounce the Cyberbob wagon a ten iso posts earlier Here, and say that you believe his claim four iso posts earlier here. And then you vote him?

And yesterday, you declare that Cyberbob wasn't scummy when explaining to Tar why we should have lynched muh Day 1, instead of Cyberbob.

Uh.. what?

Why in the world would you vote for someone you didn't find scummy? The last few games of mafia that I've played have really blurred the line between 'Information' lynches and 'pro-scum, guilt-free' lynches for me. And stuff like this is why.



@Riceballtail

VOTE:Pads

See case from yesterday.

That you're not jumping on the muh wagon, is almost a point in your favor, until I remember that you've been anti-swimmer all game. And, yes, please, everyone. Go see his case on me from yesterday.

Your posts selected ignore other parts that vitally explain the strategy that I've been using in order to weed out the scum (example: I perpetually insisted that Monkey/Swimmer were scumbuddies; however removing that fact, it would make me look scummy).

That's nice, except it's the polar opposite of what I did. The fact that you were suspicious of both Monkey and Swimmer was not excluded. It was, in actuality, the

cornerstone

of my suspicion of you. Observe:

What first brought my attention to Riceballtail is that, as far as I can tell, he was the only person on Day 1 that thought both Swimmer and MonkeyMan were scum, an issue that otherwise polarized the rest of the town. Whichever wagon took off, Riceballtail had the opportunity to fall on it.

Your case continues:

You have also forgotten to mention the times of which I've argued with your scumbuddy Rec there (and maybe scumbuddy Tar? Or Merk even? I've posted suspicions there too!).

True enough that I didn't mention those folks, but you're just helping my case at this point. My case against you is that you've stated suspicions of pretty much everyone, so you've given yourself a 'reason' to slip onto any wagon that gets steam. Even scum Tar? Really? That's so bad it skips over being scummy and goes right to SK land, which explains your long suspect list as well as being scum does.

This case looks like instead of actually reading me, you just went and looked at all my votes/fos/hos and made a case out of that.

Damn straight I made a case out of that. Voting history analysis is a solid scum hunting tactic in my book any day of the week.

Of course, I considered your behavioral patterns, as well. You're confrontational and defiant, neither are typically scum traits. Which is why you were not, and still are not, my top pick for scum. Annachie, in comparison, spent a lot of time yesterday trying to placate her attackers and slip away from suspicion.

I'll also point out that you went through all the effort to build a case on me, then put your vote on... the currently biggest wagon? This is scum behavior.

This line looks even worse today. Yesterday, you were pushing the Annachie wagon without actually joining it. Then this line looks like you were also gearing up to attack those that were on the wagon the next day, knowing full well that Annachie was going to flip town. Absolutely reeks of scum setting up the next day's mislynch.

Oh, and the implication that I slipped on the wagon with no reasons is clearly defeated by the post with my vote in it.

you basically said "I have a case, but it's not really good enough to vote for... but I still want them lynched". There's nothing pro-town in that.

Hey, that sounds pretty good. But again, it's not what actually happened.

I'd be game for a Riceballtail or Wickedestjr lynch, and I'd find a way to live with myself if Kise was the lynch. But Zoraster's got a good case. Furthermore, Anna replaced SolemnJ, who was already a prime pick for MonkeyMan's buddy, as per my Post 166. More than happy to put my name on this wagon.

I fail to see 'Not really good enough for a vote' said or implied anywhere in there. 'Not better than an Annachie vote' is the only thing implied. You are plenty good enough for a vote, especially considering the last piece of behavioral analysis: jumpy. But you are not my top pick. So, if you want to continue singing the "Pads is scum because he suspects me but hasn't voted me" song, then knock yourself out.


Slicey - Should be modkilled. Role revealed or hidden, doesn't matter.


Looking at the brutally murdered victims, I don't see a recognizable pattern. The three didn't share any suspicions. In fact, Devestation didn't have any suspects beyond Monkey. I see that Snow Bunny did suspect Riceballtail, mostly for parroting Tar. She died night 1, and then Devestation, one of Tar's big suspects, died night 2. Oddly enough, that lends credit to her theory that RBT is using Tar's reads as a guide to find scum.

I'm aware that this isn't the most compelling evidence, especially considering that Tar was leaning slightly towards town in regards to Snow Bunny (meaning that for the theory to be correct, RBT would have killed a dubious looking townie for self defense, instead of ignoring her and going after one of Tar's suspects), and I'm not saying I subscribe to it, but it's the only trace of anything I see in the kill pattern.

Rayfrost's death is harder to analyze, since he would have been a juicy target for an SK regardless of his suspicions, due to the claimed power role, even moreso than a Jailkeeper, from an SK's perspective. The reason being that the Tracker could actually out the killer, while the Jailkeeper would just foil his plans for one night. Same for scum, too, I suspect. And the idea that multiple killing entities all aimed at RayFrost last night, with the earliest PM being 'awarded' the flavor does not seem unreasonable to me. That would further indicate the presence of an SK, as he wouldn't have to stop and deliberate with allies before sending in the kill.

vote: Wickedestjr

PPE: Hadn't refreshed the thread since yesterday, so the last post I've seen is 1055. I'll read the rest and post something tonight.

[xRECKONERx]

The most viable theory to me regarding the brutal kills is a SK trying to appear town with his or her kills.

[Raivann]

@Raivann

Raivann wrote:

unvote, Vote:Cyberbob

===[]

[]===




Could you explain this post to me, specifically the penis duel that seems to be going on here?

You denounce the Cyberbob wagon a ten iso posts earlier Here, and say that you believe his claim four iso posts earlier here. And then you vote him?

And yesterday, you declare that Cyberbob wasn't scummy when explaining to Tar why we should have lynched muh Day 1, instead of Cyberbob.

Uh.. what?

Why in the world would you vote for someone you didn't find scummy? The last few games of mafia that I've played have really blurred the line between 'Information' lynches and 'pro-scum, guilt-free' lynches for me. And stuff like this is why.

I can't believe I'm getting flak for hammering Cyber. Those are hammers not penis's btw.
It was a couple hours or so till deadline if I remember correctly. Would you have preferred a no lynch? Yes it's true i didn't believe Cyber was scummy but there was no way of being sure.

Just give me my precious muh lynch today. You guys got your Anniechie lynch yesterday.

Here's a couple quotes from Glork before Tar outted his town partner. Both of whom are dead btw.

By the way, Tal, that post you just made put you way up on my list of People Who Need To Die. I will expand during D2, assuming I live that long. If not, the rest of the town will just have to figure out why you might be a dirty ol' scumbaggo.

Also, "you're better than this" is a CRAP argument (and a personal pet peeve).

It's not an argument. It's me telling you that I'm annoyed with you.

[Kise]

I'm looking at Merk and Kise first because I think their defense of Muh is scummy and I really can't see the reason for it as that defense is the only thing that makes Muh look scummy.

Alright. I never defended muh at all. If my suspicions on you came at a time when you were grilling Muh, nothing was intentional on my part. I think it was zoraster that mentioned your suspicion over me never came until I engaged you first. That whole thing was coincidental.

Negro please can be defined here.

I may be wrong on Kise, but with something like 11 unanswered questions to him I doubt it.

Are there really 11 questions? Because all I see are Anna asking about negro please and why I decided to FOS her when she attacked muh. I mean, yeah, Anna repeated the questions about 11 times, but did I miss anything from anyone else?

@everyone else voting muh: How sure are you that there's two scumgroups? Cause it seems like everyone keeps forgetting that the two Jupiter Mafia that have died pushed swimmer/wysp/muh pretty hard early in the game, hard enough to probably get swimmer lynched.

Day 1, before Exile died? Well I consider the possible set-ups but I also consider bussing. Muh could very well be a scapegoat. I'll have to iso MonkeyMan to see if he wanted Muh dead after Exile died and on Day 2. If MM dropped it day 2, then I think MM was trying to preserve one of his last partners... although I personally can't say I've made links to Muh and Jupiter Mafia.

RE: Two scum factions: Why are they called Jupiter and not simply mafia? And why has their name not been colored by the mod, do you think? If there

are not

two scum factions, then again, why Jupiter Mafia, yet we're not called something like Saturn Townies? We're simply townie, so that tells me even more that.

It's interesting to note that when Raivann's wagon picks up, Soc' gets another vote going on Vaya. I hate to be pulling one of Anna's moves, but I'm curious to hear from you Socrates why you didn't vote Vaya sooner or what made you change your mind and decide to vote Vaya when he hasn't posted anything in between?

@Percy & Wicked - You guys should consider making a hydra. It'd be good to get two players for the price of one. I've been liking you more and more, Wicked, and Percy is also doing a part to contribute and help everyone figure this game out.

@whoever asked me about muh - Him and Vaya are in the same boat as far as being contentless. I don't see it as a scumtell as the easiest solution is just to ask them for their thoughts on certain events or certain players. If they tell you something that translates into them not keeping up with the game or not bothering to read the game, then they make for good lynches in that case.

With that said, Muh, do you have any major suspicions and on who, and for what reasons? Same question to you Vaya.

[Kise]

Didn't finish my thoughts:

RE: Two scum factions: Why are they called Jupiter and not simply mafia? And why has their name not been colored by the mod, do you think? If there

are not

two scum factions, then again, why Jupiter Mafia, yet we're not called something like Saturn Townies? We're simply townie, so that tells me even more that.

Thaaaaaat more than 1 Mafia faction is in existence. It'd be rather comical of Seraph to make a single mafia group unique by calling them Jupiter, whereas Town (and possibly any other roles) are simply.. Town (and/or whatever else may exist).

[Wickedestjr]

Firstly, I was wrong about the brutally murdered kills, and I doubt Glork was responsible for either of them. It is also very likely that Jupiter Mafia is responsible for the shots, so there must be either another scum group or an SK that is responsible for the brutally murdered kills (assuming there aren't two vigs). I'm having a hard time figuring out which one it is, because there are good reasons supporting both possibilities. It would make sense for there to be another group since the group we know about has Jupiter in its name. However, the kills look like an SK trying to appear like a vig the first two nights and then making an SK-like kill after a vig flipped. I think I'm leaning toward the SK possibility.

Wicked, bring up that post you need me to answer. Please? Pretty please?

This was what I wanted a response to:

unvote, vote: kise kise needs to die first, I think he's the scum PR.

How do you know that there is a scum PR in this game? Also, how do you know that there is only one scum PR? If there was more than one scum PR, then I don't think you would have said "the" scum PR.

Vote: Rayfrost

Hider? Stop rolefishing!

Why should he stop rolefishing, it looks to me like the role he was fishing for was scum? Also, this is quite hypocritical. You are asking him if he's a hider, so you are rolefishing.

1: No, I ask if he [joke] referred to me as hider. And didn't you just finish suspecting him? 2: How are seriously going to look at two people engaged in RVS convo and suspect them both for non-serious comments? 3: You can't suspect two people who oppose each other, even if jokingly. The proper expression has something to do with an inability to have cake and eat it... I forget. Check my avy. It's not yours.

Vote: Wickedestjr

4:

IGMEO Warwound & SolemnJ

@Big Willy - Do you remember in Day & Night that whole Monkey Vs. BC situation? Both flipped town, and the case against Monkey was that he said BC was overreacting. Would you say we're seeing similar words/thought patterns from Monkey here? 5: I need a 2nd opinion.

1: Okay. That just wasn't how I interprated it.

2: Here he has a problem with me suspecting two people in the RVS for their non-serious comments. I thought that was how we got out of the RVS. Isn't it?

3: Says I can't accuse two players who oppose each other. There are many reasons why this is false. Firstly, there could be two scum groups and different scum group members opposing each other. Secondly, even if we knew there was one scum group, what would be wrong with suspecting two players who oppose each other anyway? I have previous experience being in a situation in which two people who opposed each other were both acting scummy. Thirdly, I wasn't even suspecting RayFrost nor Kise seriously in the first place. My vote for RayFrost was after reading a page of information, and I was simply questioning something that Kise had said. Why does that mean I am suspecting both of you? Fourthly, he assumes that I would think about scum relationships on page 2 of the game. That is a stupid assumption.

4: Thanks? Can you explain why you said this?

5: Why not give yours?

I also would like to know why your suspicion of me has "lifted".


zoraster, can you please elaborate on your concern with Annachie's questions? I'm a bit confused.


I will continue catching up tomorrow.

[xRECKONERx]

Vote: wicked

No way did he just repeat the same arguments regarding the kills and factions then say "I'm not done catching up." He's blatantly trying to appear townie by stealing other ideas then added on the whole "oh. I'm catching up" bit to make it sound like an innocent coincidence.

[Pads]

I can't believe I'm getting flak for hammering Cyber.

Well, since your actions were in complete disagreement with your words...

But now, as you've gotten more attention, my top suspect suddenly suspects you. An iso read shows that Wickedest gave a neutral read on you earlier in the game and then didn't talk about you at all until now. That's a possible bus, but I'd rather start with Wickedest and then make the call.

[Merkabah]

To be fair, I think Raivann's hammer of Cyberbob is fairly null. It was deadline and whether or not he had protested the lynch before that, someone had to make it happen. I'd be more pissed at him if he had posted and NOT hammered at that time.

That being said, there are plenty of other reasons to be suspicious of Raivann that don't included that hammer, including the excessive tunnelling on muh essentially with no attention going from him to anyone else in this game.

-VPB

[Socrates]

Socrates, I think you're missing the point Tar was trying to make. If you did in fact ask the mod, why didn't you say it at the time? And I've definitely played in at least one game where the mod said "I'll only give one kill flavor per death, regardless of how many kills target the dead person."

...you know, I could kinda see Socrates in any faction except SK.

I didn't think it was imperative for me to cite my sources. Sorry.

Besides, both of you are missing an even bigger point. Why would scum be more likely to know this information? Its not like that stuff is typically stated in scum role PMs or anything. (Perhaps a scum would like to claim in order to correct me on this? )

So, either way, I would have had to have asked the mod about it, so it is Null at worst and trying to twist that into a scum tell is lamesauce.

Also, why don't you see me as SK?

@Kise: This game doesn't use standard flavor designations for its roles. Note that Vanillas are called Villagers.

I didn't immediately vote Vaya because I forgot about Vaya. I remembered he was in the game and I voted him.

What does everybody think about Vaya?

Mod: can you prod Vaya, please?

The remarks about Raivann hammering Cyberbob are lame.

[Pads]

Wait, what?

I don't care that it was the hammer. I care that he voted for someone he didn't find scummy, and then denounced the wagon a few days later to drum up support for a muh wagon. That behavior doesn't strike either of you as kinda odd?

I only asked about that post because I had no idea what those drawings were supposed to be/mean.

[Merkabah]

-snip-

...you know, I could kinda see Socrates in any faction except SK.

I missed this the first time going through. How the *hell* can you eliminate somebody "scummy" (from your POV) from being SK without being it yourself?

---

Also, this is something that I wanted to post before; but I was waiting for really meaningful Raivann content.

Glork, RF, and Solemn are my top suspects right now...

He also goes on to accuse Snow_Bunny of being scum, and Vaya. Now, there's two things that everybody in that list (with one exception) has in common: They're both dead and town. (Vaya is the obvious exception and I'm not exactly looking at that right now).

In multi-scum; the scumgroup also has to look for other people, but MMan has only found townies. This implies to me that he's just trying to manufacture suspicion rather than actually scumhunt.

MMan isn't the greatest player (if he was, he wouldn't have gotten lynched so easily); but I would've expected that he'd find *one* scum in his list. Heck, you don't buss your partners and there's more scum, it's even statistically probable that he'd find *1* if there was another group out there.

[Xylthixlm]

Mod note: If someone is killed by multiple killers in the same night, all kill flavors will be listed (for example "brutally murdered and shot").

... unless the mod screws up. Kill flavors are for entertainment purposes only.

[Wickedestjr]

Sorry, today was a busy day. Wasn't able to make a post, but I am still catching up.

[Trumpet of Doom]

I missed this the first time going through. How the *hell* can you eliminate somebody "scummy" (from your POV) from being SK without being it yourself?

SK's probably the least likely faction to push the idea of one scumgroup+SK, primarily for reasons I think Socrates mentioned: If we have an SK, they'd want to keep the "two scumgroups" idea alive as long as possible, as it keeps people from looking for any tells that might be SK-specific. (or something like that...)

Why would scum be more likely to know this information?

Scum (specifically, Jupiter, or whosever kill "shot" is) would know whether their kill didn't show up because they targeted someone who didn't die, or because they killed RF and the mod only gave one kill flavor. I'd really rather not sink myself too deeply into the logic of "would this make you more or less likely to be a particular faction" at this point.

Actually, it's pretty easy to know kinda what you're up against as scum. Tar can attest to this as well, but in NY92; we (Amished here) were part of a 4 man scumgroup in a 27? person game. That's well under the normal "20-30%" scum ratio that you can expect, so we could scumhunt knowing that there was gonna be another faction of some sort out there. Knowing your own size and your abilities you can pretty well judge the rest of the game.

If you're large and have a lot of powerful abilities, you know that the town will similarly have a lot of abilities that you have to watch out for. You've been around for a year by now; I thought that this was rather basic to the concept of mafia.

Makes sense, I guess. I probably need to be scum more. (Seems to me "basic to the concept of Mafia" would be more along the lines of "this is what scum do, this is what town do, know the difference," but whatever.)

So we're thinking either two scumgroups of probably 3 players each (4:4:15 seems maybe a bit balanced against town) or one scumgroup of 5-6 and an SK? Does that sound about right?

Here's a couple quotes from Glork before Tar outted his town partner. Both of whom are dead btw.

By the way, Tal, that post you just made put you way up on my list of People Who Need To Die. I will expand during D2, assuming I live that long. If not, the rest of the town will just have to figure out why you might be a dirty ol' scumbaggo.

Also, "you're better than this" is a CRAP argument (and a personal pet peeve).

It's not an argument. It's me telling you that I'm annoyed with you.

All right, I'm sold.

Unvote.
Vote: Raivann.

First, there's the appeal to authority he's using. Sure, it's Glork, but even the best can make mistakes.

Second, he's trying to push suspicion on Tar. This is a horrible idea:
1. Tar can't possibly be Jupiter mafia unless there's another protective role out there who could have blocked the Jupiter kill.
2. Town+SK seems rather off for what Tar's claimed: Why would he want to use the protective aspect of his role at all if he's an SK?
3. While I suppose it's theoretically possible that Tar's part of a second scumgroup, if it turns out we have one, there are a few other directions I'd rather look first.

[Xylthixlm]

Vote Count

muh316 -

2

(zoraster, Raivann)
Raivann -

2

(Tarhalindur, Trumpet of Doom)
Wickedestjr -

2

(Pads, xRECKONERx)
Pads -

1

(Riceballtail)
Vaya -

1

(Socrates)

Not voting: muh316, Slicey, Vaya, Merkabah, Kise, Wickedestjr

With 14 alive it will take 8 to lynch.

[Raivann]

All right, I'm sold.

Unvote.
Vote: Raivann.

First, there's the appeal to authority he's using. Sure, it's Glork, but even the best can make mistakes.

Second, he's trying to push suspicion on Tar. This is a horrible idea:
1. Tar can't possibly be Jupiter mafia unless there's another protective role out there who could have blocked the Jupiter kill.
2. Town+SK seems rather off for what Tar's claimed: Why would he want to use the protective aspect of his role at all if he's an SK?
3. While I suppose it's theoretically possible that Tar's part of a second scumgroup, if it turns out we have one, there are a few other directions I'd rather look first.

So are Jail guards normally of same alignment?

[Trumpet of Doom]

All right, I'm sold.

Unvote.
Vote: Raivann.

First, there's the appeal to authority he's using. Sure, it's Glork, but even the best can make mistakes.

Second, he's trying to push suspicion on Tar. This is a horrible idea:
1. Tar can't possibly be Jupiter mafia unless there's another protective role out there who could have blocked the Jupiter kill.
2. Town+SK seems rather off for what Tar's claimed: Why would he want to use the protective aspect of his role at all if he's an SK?
3. While I suppose it's theoretically possible that Tar's part of a second scumgroup, if it turns out we have one, there are a few other directions I'd rather look first.

So are Jail guards normally of same alignment?

Hell if I know.

[Merkabah]

AFAIK, there aren't really SK specific tells. They have too much in common with both scum (survival) and town (scumhunting) to effectively be able to solo them out. Either way; the SK would know (since they're doing one of the kills each night) that there's one large group out there and could say anything that they wanted to to make them look town.

3:3:16? or 5-6:1:16 would both seem reasonable; with a vig out there, I'd probably lean towards less scum than more; cause you pretty much have to assume that a townie will be killed at every opportunity for game balance (well, that's typically how I do it) and then judge amount of mislynches that can happen and town still win (not sure exactly how to balance large, but I would say that 3-5 mislynches is around normal).

I would assume jailkeeper masons are about as likely to be the same alignment as neighbors (which is actually quite high, and this is without the mod clarification factored in at this point). In a game that just finished, there were mason cops; and each had an investigation. Tar isn't really on our scumdar either, and using a dead person's arguments (dead *town's* arguments to be more specific) is pretty damn weak.

With the mod clarification; I think it's damn near impossible for Tar to be scum; and the discrediting of a Town PR is something that I really only expect from scum (and it happens quite a bit, actually)

Not the biggest fan of following Trumpet anywhere, but

Vote: Raivann

@Mod: Any ETA on Vaya/Slicey (or replacements?)