888: X-COM TFTD Mafia: Over!

[Leon Dreyfus]

Yeah, time constraints have been killing me. Plus I can't post on my phone in this game due to it being an alt. Which like 75% of my mafia posts are made from as of late.

Anyways, I'll be honest, and upfront about it. I haven't kept up with this game much. I have gutted this entire game, by what was going on here and now each time I checked. So if you want me to solidify my stance, it's pretty much all gut reads from what I've seen. I honestly look at Jaime in this regard:

Dumb or Scum.

He's done nothing that impresses me in a town aspect, now, if he's scum...my hat will go off to him for fooling the town.

Now, I guess it's bothersome, but I'll do it to keep the game from being lost on behalf of my laziness. I'm going to reread the entire game and post my thoughts. But not before January 1st. I have life to attend to.

Until then.

[Jaime Marcelle]

Leon, a few questions for you:

If I die and flip scum you would you go after?
If I die and flip town who would you go after?
If you couldn't go after me right now (for whatever reason) who would you go after?

I ask there since you haven't really talked about other people that you thought were being scummy. Other then me you've talked about Edward briefly and that's about it.

[Spencer Remmington]

I've been busy lately. I apologize for putting off my catch up post for so long. It's been difficult to really get into this game, but...I'm pretty sure I'm free tomorrow as I can't think of anything that I HAVE to do tomorrow. So, I'll be able to dedicate an hour or so to this game catching up and catching scum...

Um...though honestly I'm a little less confident in my scumhunting reading my notes before Emile's flip...

[Claude Lefevre]

I'm very confident Jaime is town.

I'm a little worried about Spencer, since that role has basically lurked through the entire game. Perhaps not intentionally, but we've got virtually nothing to go on here, and that ain't good. That's not really someone you want around in potential lylo.

I agree about Spencer, and it is not like his last post is helping a lot:

I've been busy lately. I apologize for putting off my catch up post for so long. It's been difficult to really get into this game, but...I'm pretty sure I'm free tomorrow as I can't think of anything that I HAVE to do tomorrow. So, I'll be able to dedicate an hour or so to this game catching up and catching scum...

Um...though honestly I'm a little less confident in my scumhunting reading my notes before Emile's flip...

nobody requested a justification of your scumhunting skills, so why give one? excusatio non petita...

Think about it. You post horrible, crap logic and I reveal it. Now, if you were scum and you realized how bad the logic was you would want to try and pass it off to get the suspicion from it off of you, right? A very easy way to do this would be just to say "I knew it was bad logic. I just wanted to trap you." In this case, fishy means exactly what it says in the dictionary (outside of "Like a fish in form, smell, taste, or the like" since I am assuming bad logic and traps doesn't taste like fish). In this case fishy means questionable, improbable, unlikely, suspicious, etc

perhaps it wasn't all that useful, and perhaps wasn't even a great trap, but a town-aligned figure should not react that bad to an accusation they can easily deconstruct. And besides, I do not see what you mean with the sentence I quoted, but perhaps I am missing some nuances and subtleties of the English vernacular. Whatever. I do not trust you.

Yeah, time constraints have been killing me. Plus I can't post on my phone in this game due to it being an alt. Which like 75% of my mafia posts are made from as of late.

Anyways, I'll be honest, and upfront about it. I haven't kept up with this game much. I have gutted this entire game, by what was going on here and now each time I checked. So if you want me to solidify my stance, it's pretty much all gut reads from what I've seen. I honestly look at Jaime in this regard:

Dumb or Scum.

He's done nothing that impresses me in a town aspect, now, if he's scum...my hat will go off to him for fooling the town.

Now, I guess it's bothersome, but I'll do it to keep the game from being lost on behalf of my laziness. I'm going to reread the entire game and post my thoughts. But not before January 1st. I have life to attend to.

Until then.

Leon, as much as I may share your feelings about Jaime, this post is not even close to answering what I asked you. I asked you to explain what you think about Edward and about me, and Jaime asked you to be detailed and accurate in your answer.

[Jaime Marcelle]

Leon, as much as I may share your feelings about Jaime, this post is not even close to answering what I asked you. I asked you to explain what you think about Edward and about me, and Jaime asked you to be detailed and accurate in your answer.

I see that too. It appears to me that Leon is purposefully avoiding the question. Leon's last post had NOTHING to do with you or Edward and I want to know Leon, why? Why didn't you answer the question?

[Edward Smilie]

@ Spencer: Please share your notes. I want to get a bead on your thought process.

perhaps it wasn't all that useful, and perhaps wasn't even a great trap, but a town-aligned figure should not react that bad to an accusation they can easily deconstruct.

I couldn't disagree more. Town players tend to react much, much worse to really bad accusations than they do to reasonable ones.

Imagine the following exchanges:

I think Edward looks quite scummy. Although he was on that scum wagon, I think that's a bus the scum could easily afford to make.

I take your point, but I'd also like to point to (x, y and z) who did the exact same thing. Why are you singling me out?

I think Edward could be playing the reasonable townie, whilst manipulating everything behind the scenes.

Get a grip. There's no evidence for that other than rampant paranoia, or you being scum trying to discredit me. How the hell can you manipulate 'behind the scenes' in a game like this? Everything's in thread, dumbass.

I think Edward is being too defensive.

'TOO DEFENSIVE' IS NOT A SCUMTELL, YOU F***ING TOOL!

As you can see, I would be more annoyed, less civil, and more determined to utterly destroy the accuser, the less reasonable the attack was. I suspect most people would be the same.

[Claude Lefevre]

@Jaime: you need to ebwop, u r not quoting Leon, but me.

@Edward: a matter of points of view. I keep feeling that Jaime already knew Igor was dying before the mod posted his death, and I keep feeling he was too nervous, but whatever, it's a feeling and I cannot convince anyone to share it, can I? I see that my lunge had no chance to provide us with definitive information in the first place.

Tomorrow I will do a re-read and try to understand if my long FoS on Jaime is actually worth something.

For the time being I have to notice that not only Leon's post did not answer any of our questions, but it also failed in providing any solid reason for his opinion about Jaime: scum or dumb due to lack of outstanding pro-town action is a label that could easily apply to most of the active players, except Edward (cuz he replaced late in the game).

[malthusis]

The activity rules are back on (and have been since New Years), and I am prodding anybody who needs it (i.e Leon and Andrew).

The new deadline for Day 4 is Jan. 14th 2010.

[Edward Smilie]

Well, I would state that the role Jaime played in the Emile wagon is a 'significant' pro-town action. I'd like Leon to explain why he thinks otherwise.

[Jaime Marcelle]

@Jaime: you need to ebwop, u r not quoting Leon, but me.

Thx for pointing that out. I was quoting Edward and not Leon.

For the time being I have to notice that not only Leon's post did not answer any of our questions, but it also failed in providing any solid reason for his opinion about Jaime: scum or dumb due to lack of outstanding pro-town action is a label that could easily apply to most of the active players, except Edward (cuz he replaced late in the game).

Looking back, this is rue. Especially since I (and I think someone else a different time. I can't remember who) told him that he needs to provide more examples and explainations.

Leon- Can you tell me why I am either "Dumb or scum" with examples and explainations. Also, I would like you to provide a breif summary about why you think I'm scummy. Also, please let me know what the main point is behind it is (if there is one).

[Spencer Remmington]

DONE YOU DAMNED VULTURES!

Unvote, Vote Jaime

FoS Claude

FoS Leon

Notes in next post. Why is Jaime not dead yet?

[Spencer Remmington]

PART ONE!

Alright, so, you all are absolutely going to hate me. Because it's time for...A WALL POST!

Post 13: Tracey starts off the scuminess by liking Twilight. AT ALL. I apologize if future commentary on Tracey is biased for this.

Post 38 and 39: Edward:

Post 42: Emile: How about Twilight in general haters?

Post 44: Gerhard: Ok, seriously? You know, I'm glad you flipped non town. Because this was a TERRIBLE post.

Post 47: I love you Spencer. And yes, I'm aware this is I.

Post 49: Leon: While there are "reasons", RVS votes still don't have SERIOUS reasons. You generally can't analyze RVS on it's own and find scum, though in rare cases it CAN aid you in finding scum combined with other information.

Post 54: Leon: With that clarification, I'd like to ask what your point is.

Post 56: Claude pretty much sums up my opinion.

Post 58: Igor: The difference between your post and Emile's, however, is Emile offered an

opinion

in his post. You...um...didn't.

Post 59: Jaime: See post 58.

Post 64: Andrew: The thing is, the way I read it was that it was a hypothetical. I still hope to read clarification.

Post 67: Leon: Is metafishing a scumtell? If so, why? If not, why the hell are you voting Gerhard over it?

Post 69: Emile: Quit saying what I'm thinking. It makes it hard to look like I'm actually thinking. Leaning town on Emile.

Post 71: Stuart: What the hell? You are voting quite possibly the most protown person in this clusterfuck. Explain yourself!

Post 74: Stuart: No. Not going to pass

Unvote, Vote Stuart White

Post 75: Igor: Yeah, not gonna work either. As I said, is metafishing SCUMMY, or is it just against the spirit of the game? Vote accordingly. As for the latter, admitted hypocrisy doesn't make it ok.

Post 78: Jaime: Why aren't you voting Stuart? You called him out pretty well.

Note: Everything from this point on is after Emile's and Igor's flips. Reading some of the things I've said earlier do not make me feel confident in my scumhuntery...

Also of note is that Stuart was right. Course, he's dead. Maybe I should have remained blissfully unaware of the dead player list.

Post 83: Jaime: Given both Stuart and Emile's flip, this suddenly looks a lot worse. The saving grace is the fact I agreed with you at the time. Regardless, I have my eye on you.

Post 87: Jaime: This...rubs me the wrong way. Then again, I'm treating Stuart as chamber at this point.

Post 93: Claude: This post bespeaks a calm wisdom that came to pass. Good points for you.

Post 95: Jaime: Hey, how about take your previous posts as a null tell, since in the end I have to agree treating Stuart as he has been makes sense. And then consider this one scummy as hell. Feels like "Even if he's town he needs to die, yay!"

Calling it now. Stuart is chamber or a chamber like player. That said I still agree with most of my previous incarnations post if I were there.

Post 98:: Tracey: Allow me to go out on a limb here.

Why

is not explaining your vote anti town? You haven't explained this, merely said with far too many words that "it just is". Fortunately, your post feels frustrated town.

Post 100:: Leon: This would have gotten you town points...if you had actively opposed his lynch. Regardless, well put. In retrospect and due to the power of hindsight, this was a good view on the situation.


Post 110: Tracey: This is a much better explanation ^-^.


By the way, I hope to see Stuart explaining why explaining reasoning for votes is anti town. It'd be a good theory read.

Post 118: Edward: thank you for confirming I was correct.

Post 120: Claude: Good catch! I completely missed that! More weight on the scales against Jaime.

Post 121: Stuart: Well, you're dead so you can't answer but at this point you probably should have posted that diatribe, risking a theory discussion. Tracey brought up some good points.

Post 125: Malt, general group: Oh DAMMIT. So now I have to remember Orski is Edward? Well, fine.

Post 126: Good posting Andrew. But I wish you had parked your vote to a new target.

Post 127: Bad posting Jaime. You start of with an "It just IS" attack for "not explaining votes is anti town", deny fishing despite the fact you pretty much were, and your condescending tone is terrible.

As of Post 133 Stuart HAS to be chamber.

I'm sorry about the speculation malt but he's already dead and I can't help it.

Post 160: Everyone: See!? This is why "Even if he's town blah blah lynch anyway" statements are SCUMMY! Just throwing that out there. Why the hell no one went after Emile for this BOGGLES me.

[Spencer Remmington]

PART TWO

Post 167: Everyone: This post is indeed WIFOM but could be very valuable. I want this to be remembered.

To point out what Emile has said compared to facts:
Stuart Scum = Stuart was town
Gerhard Town = Gerhard 3rd party (but Emile wouldn't know that)
Otto scum = Otto Town (Survivor now though)
Tracey town = Tracey Town
Igor scum = Igor Town
Leon Town = ???
Andrew Town = ???
Jaime Town = ???
Orski ??? = ???
Spencer Town = ??? (Town )
Claude Scum = ???

Ok, here's the thing. I would almost indict Claude based on this. I doubt that Emile would pick ALL townies and not lightly bus a scumbuddy. But, again, it's WIFOM. I will, however, look closer at Claude now, even though IIRC he's seemed rather townie to me.

Post 177: Jaime: Badposting. You basically say you believe he's a town bulletproof yet continue to vote him?

Honestly, I can't find much to comment on page 8 because it's mostly everyone against Stuart and all my opinions are colored by flips. As in anyone I want to call out is already dead or myself.

Post 197: Andrew: And I had high hopes for you. Well, granted, it's still good you aren't hastening to kill Stu.

Go Spencer when you call out Leon. That guy never DID elaborate. ++ scum points to Leon.

Post 216: Leon: Gonna put you back to "IGMEOY" then.

Honestly, it's a shame Tracey is dead and flipped. I would love to feel he's super town right now and eliminate a suspect.

As I continue reading I notice that, besides myself, it's mostly scum calling Stuart stupid, whereas town are trying to reason with him on some level. How...interesting for Jaime. Of course, opinions understandably sour as the posts go on.

PAGE 10, YAY! I'm less than halfway to done!

Ok, sorry, Igor was town and also was hardline on Stuart. I feel less confident in that tell now.

You know, I see why Igor would have been a wonderful lynch. I'm glad scum took care of him for us, but it boggles me why.

I am really liking my past self. They have a good point that as the wagon continues it's harder to pick alignment from it, but I think that earlier reasonings can be picked at a bit.

Post 247: Stuart: Yeesh, 2 out of 3 isn't bad, but I'm pretty sure I look bad for this now :S. (Yes, I'm assuming Gerhard was antitown)

Post 251: Jaime: terrible post. Why would Stuart's reasons make you unvote if Stu is so scummy? Further, I thought you believed his claim? Hmm...

Spencer is smart. Very smart. In Post 253, that pretty much matches my (admittedly hindsight ridden) views.

Tracey is also smart. Very smart. Why do all the smart players have to be dead or replaced?

Post 264: Claude: This bothers me. It feels like "Jaime is scum, but..." and going after Stuart due to it being the popular wagon. This is mitigated a bit by your explanation though. But I don't like the vibe I get from this post.

You know, if I hadn't seen Otto's flip, I'd have assumed he was scum for waltzing in and voting Stuart for pretty much no reason.

Wow indeed. HAMMERING him for no reason.

Igor is frustrating. His post right after the lynch acts like he knew Stu was town. I'd honestly be calling for his lynch if he weren't already dead.

Post 296: Jaime: It's a wikitell but who else sees gloating here?

Post 303:: Jaime: Oh, backtrack from Emile scum? And the fact you put Otto above him in the first place does not bode well. I somewhat agree on Andrew though.

Post 310: Claude: Not that it really helps since I know it's true, but I'd probably lean towards believing it at that time and also probably facepalm at what will likely lead to a modkill (then again, I know that happens too)

Huh, no modkill. Well, that's good.

Anyway, we get to a third party that looks like a cult.

Here's my opinon. I don't think malt would have 3:1 CULT LEADER: 8.

So, if my conjecture is correct, I think we only have one scum left (from the time I'm actually in, not from that page) However...I could be way off, as a fair amount of power has flipped already. Not sure what to think...it feels really hard to balance well.

Post 319: Jaime: I dislike this post a lot. You seem to want everyone to assume that Ger was mafia, not third party. This seems like a nice way to get people barking up the wrong tree.

Post 320: Leon: Good job. Could you post content now?

Post 321: Andrew: Wrong logic, but good conclusion. To the point where I think this clears you a lot. The attack on Emile does not make sense from a scum perspective, especially given how you explained it. Granted, I suppose you could be in cahoots with Jaime in acting like Ger was mafia, but...I get the feeling from your post that you really didn't know that.

Ok, I am leaning less towards the Ger mafia theory being indictive of false information.

Post 327: Claude: well reasoned. If Jaime is scum I am less likely to believe you are.

Post 331:: Claude: And this is the same reason I'd believe Otto's claim. Also, I like the Jaime vote ^-^.

Post 342:: Yeah, sure, cause a vig shooting Otto is a vig not shooting you, amirite?

I gotta admit Otto's claim became ridiculous at the "probe minds" thing, even if it was true.

Post 367: Leon: Oh hey, another terrible post. Seriously? Emile should have been caught for saying similar things.

And WHAT THE FUCK OTTO! I mean, SERIOUSLY. When I find out who you are, you are TOTALLY going on the blacklist (unless I really like you)

Post 378: Jaime: Ok, I take it back, there probably are three scum. Because I think you are confirming it. As well as the fact that Ger wasn't part of the mafia. I hope this post gets more attention.

Post 389: Jaime: NOTE THE FACT THAT HE IS STILL TRYING TO DEFEND THE GER-MAFIATE THEORY.

Yeah, I see no breadcrumbs of Terry's results. It's...not very happy making.

Post 404: Jaime: I CAN'T FIND THIS POST OH GOD I MEAN WHAT~
Ok, seriously, this post is nice. You aren't voting yet. Why aren't you voting either Leon or Emile?

You know, I'm really glad that Igor is dead. It's OBVIOUS that he was wrong about a lot of stuff and I likely would be voting him today if he weren't flipped town.

Post 415: Leon: This is hard to call. You've been scummy all game, yet you've called out known scum. It could be a rather well played bus or actually good scumhunting. I still have my eye on you.

Post 416: Jaime: This defense of Emile makes you look A LOT WORSE, even if I agree with Leon elaborating.

Post 418: Claude: Fence sit. Not one I like. But it pushes Emile, so slight points.

Post 419: Jaime: At this point, I...don't THINK you are scum with Leon, but I think you are with Emile.

Post 420: Leon: This pushes you into a more town territory IMO.

HOLY CRAP tl;dr from Edward! (though this post will be as well, in it's own way). Your end result is decent though.

Post 427: Jaime: Once again, the flips make you look bad. Edward was right on Emile, and you are discrediting him. I see a lot of simultanious defense and attack on a confirmed scum from you.

Post 428: Leon: Summarizes my thoughts on 427 quite well.

Post 429 and post 430: Jaime makes his vote scummier, and Leon calls it out quite properly.

Post 431: Claude: This feels like a cautious "Shit, gotta bus Emile" without pushing it too hard on the hope he can escape.


Post 435: Claude: This would be a good post if you weren't putting someone above a confirmed scum and my top scum pick. I think you are fitting in as a buddy quite nicely.

Post 439: Jaime: Why? It doesn't appear Leon is any less scummy to you. Why did you unvote?

Post 440: Edward: Or chamber! Don't forget chamber! And I somewhat agree with your arguments about not explaining votes. But part of it's charm is it's uniqueness. Alas, you assume Ger is mafia.

Post 443: Andrew: You are a wild card. At some points, you are obv town, and then you make a post like this. You say Emile has a good case on him. That he looks scummy and...then you vote Igor? What? Given Emile's flip, this looks BAD[/b][/size]

[Spencer Remmington]

PART THREE, FINAL PART

Post 444: Claude: This screws me up again. You would have to be bussing both Emile and Jaime at this point if I'm right. I'd bet more on Jaime than you though...

Post 452: Leon: This counterwagon erases the good feelings I had about you earlier. The fact it's forming on town against flipped scum REALLY makes the people on it look BAAAAD.

Post 454: Jaime: THIS, however, is an obv bus post.

Post 456: Claude: Is absolutely right. I...don't think Claude and Jaime can be scum together.

Post 458: Claude: Oh wait, take that back. You suddenly had to ruin it.

I'm starting to glaze over all the walls at this point. I'm sorry if I miss important thing from these posts on.

Page 20 isn't helping.

Edward seems town though, based on flips and arguments.

Post 492: Andrew: Gains a bit of town point back.

Post 493: Jaime: This is simultanious good and bad. It's a swing vote towards a scum...but it's also away from a dying wagon anyway, so it's not as strong a tell.

Post 502. Fuckwin.

Post 505: Claude: This feels like townie flexibility.

Post 507. MEANIE!

So far not much is changing my reads up to post 524...

Btw, at this point I want Jaime dead, and Leon or Claude is a good second. Leaning Leon right now, but given how much Claude makes me flip this could change.

Igor 523 has a point.

Post 538: Leon: Quite right. But he's an easy bus at this point.

Post 540: Edward: Swing vote is indeed noted but...the Igor wagon was already losing momentum.

Post 548: Jaime: Does anyone else read this as gloating? But, Igor is an obv kill at this point. He was a very close counter wagon to known scum. Scum wants him dead.

Post 550: Leon: Jaime needs to die. I am 100% certain he is scum at this point. Town doesn't post as he did.

Post 552: Andrew: Half right. But when someone is as obv scum as Jaime, save the no lynch.

Post 555: Edward: Glad we agree. However...I have to lean Claude at this point, despite my stance two pages ago.

Post 559: Leon: And then you pole vault in front of Claude. How is Edward backtracking? Further, what happened to Jaime or no lynch? And "Edward looks good"

Post 566: Claude: I must have missed your trap but if it catches Jaime, awesome. Vote him please.

Post 567: Leon: If this is true I'm sure I noted it. I'll reread these notes after I post them.

Post 571: Claude: When my predecessor was around, they posted a LOT of solid material IMO. I've never been so HAPPY about who I replaced honestly.

Post 572: Edward: EXPLAIN YOURSELF!? HOW THE HELL IS JAIME TOWN!?

nobody requested a justification of your scumhunting skills, so why give one? excusatio non petita...

Well excuse ME princess.


Honestly, I probably forgot most of what I thought before page 4. So expect me to reread my post if you ask me things.

[Spencer Remmington]

...*facepalm*

I voted a dead player, wow. That I ended up clearing.

Unvote Vote Jaime

[malthusis]

The First Vote Count of Day 4:

(Finally!)

Jaime Marcelle:1 (Spencer)

Not Voting:5 (Leon, Edward, Jaime, Andrew, Claude)

[Jaime Marcelle]

Ok, this might take a while...

Post 59: Yeah... I don't remember exactly what I was thinking then but I guess that I didn't really know what to discuss. I guess I was just waiting until someone else started the discussion.

Post 78: I'm not going to put a vote on someone just because they voted with no explaination (as that was the only thing against him at that point). It was the continued refusal and other general scumminess that made me eventually vote him.

Post 83: Yep, I (almost) voted town. Can't argue with you about that. What i am wondering though is what does Emiles flip have to do with this?

87: The reason for the vote was again his refusal to explain his vote, his lack of defense etc.

95: I never said "If he's a townie he needs to die". I said if he was a townie he's really hurting town and hurting town is scummy.

127: Not explaining votes is anti-town because it helps out scum (usually) and doesn't help town at all. (I guess under extreme circumstances it would be townish or at least null but from what I can tell it's still scummy). Also, again, yes, of course I was fishing because I thought he was a secret daycop -_- And you don't like my condecending tone? How is a tone scummy? I agree that sometimes I do have a condecending tone but that's just me, my personality. (and besides, being condecending is fun )

177: I was willing to beleive that he was a bp. That does not mean that he's auto clear in my book. If he could prove to me that he was townish I would be willing to beleive he was a bp (at least for then anyway).

251: Because him hiding his reasons was a big part of why I was voting him. If he could tell me why he voted with no explaination (and if it made sense of course) I would be happier. Also, the me beleiving his claim thing was talked about earlier.

269: What does this post have to do with me? Where's the wikitell? I don't see gloating. I'm confused.

303: I backtrack from Emile because the only thing I had on him was that Stuart could have had some kind of info on him which seemed very unlikely from his flip. Also, talk to all he other people who put Otto above Emile. The things on Otto greatly outweighed the things on Stuart.

319: This lies in my lack of knoledge of XCOM. i saw the alieness of his flip and thought to myself "The intro flavor text said the scum were aliens that means Gerhard must be scum!" I had no idea at the time that there were multiple alien races (well, I didn't think there weren't. I was unsure) or even if there were i didn't know that they were (supposedly) going against each other.

378: In a normal mafia game there are 3 scum. I was (and still am) this is an avarage game.

389: See before.

404: I was not going to vote them just because of low content (until later when Igor suggested we all vote and I decided just to put a placeholder vote).

416: i was not protecting Emile. I was just saying Leon was worse then Emile.

419: kay

427: 1. Yes Edward was right about Emile 2. I was not discrediting Edward I was defending myself (except for where I stated the possibility that hecould just be using his post to protect himself). 3. Nowhere in this post have I attacked OR defended Emile.

430: Like I said, placeholder vote. I had no intentions of keeping my vote on Leon if he was about to be lynched unless he started to appear scummier.

439: I was acting obviously anti-town and I was possibly hurting the town. Now, before you say "He just admited he was acting anti-town and so he acted more townie to get suspicion off of him!" Hear me out. Assuming I am town, why would I purposefully hurt the town with my vote on Leon?

454: I don't see it.

493: kay

548: Again, what does this post have to do with me? Yes, I see it as gloating. But still, if Igor was kept alive at that point it would seem that he would be tomorrows lynch (assuming we would not lynch today). Which brings me to my next point:

Spencer: Why do you vote? Please tell me why you think a lynch would be better then not lynching today because the way I see it unless we got a bastard mod (a crapload of scum and a whetever the hell Gerhard was) it seems that the best play today would be to not lynch.

Also, since it a huge wall of text it is very easy for me to have skipped over something so Spencer: if there is anything i missed that you want me to respond to please feel free to tell me

[Claude Lefevre]

@Jaime: post 579; 584: seriously, do u misquote on purpose? cause it is pretty frequent now... 2 of 3 quotes are mistakenly attributed, and the ebwop is wrong, too... it just makes it a little hard to understand your posts, man

I am still doing the re-read, sorry but Spencer accurate wall post (for which I thank him) is making the process slower.

[Edward Smilie]

Three points, Spencer.

1. I don't get how in hell you can say things like 'The Igor wagon was dying when Jaime left it.' It had been put to L-1 all of three posts before. It was the leading wagon. This seems a ridiculous leap.

2. Why would you not think Gerhard was mafia, unless you are informed to the contrary? There are not multiple competing alien races in Terror From The Deep. There's humans, and there's aliens. That's it. Tentaculats are part of the same alien coalition as Gill men, etc.

I also want to know why this belief is scummy, because to me it's a sign of being uninformed majority.

3. Opinions on nolynch?

[Jaime Marcelle]

@Jaime: post 579; 584: seriously, do u misquote on purpose? cause it is pretty frequent now... 2 of 3 quotes are mistakenly attributed, and the ebwop is wrong, too... it just makes it a little hard to understand your posts, man

Sorry Again, in post 584 I meant to say that I menat to quote Claude and not Leon. (I think that's right. I reread it 5 times to make sure )

[Spencer Remmington]

Three points, Spencer.

1. I don't get how in hell you can say things like 'The Igor wagon was dying when Jaime left it.' It had been put to L-1 all of three posts before. It was the leading wagon. This seems a ridiculous leap.

2. Why would you not think Gerhard was mafia, unless you are informed to the contrary? There are not multiple competing alien races in Terror From The Deep. There's humans, and there's aliens. That's it. Tentaculats are part of the same alien coalition as Gill men, etc.

I also want to know why this belief is scummy, because to me it's a sign of being uninformed majority.

3. Opinions on nolynch?

I'll answer the non walls first (Though I understand a wall was understandably expected in response to my prefabricated house of catch up there)

For 1, let us reconstruct the scene.

And discover I was wrong. To me, it looked like the wagon was weakening with Andrew's switch off, but it still had a fair amount of strength.

This, in and of itself, forces me to

Unvote

I HATE the idea of letting Jaime off though. He has not been posting well. He's been inconsistently defending then attacking Emile. He's been all over the place.

Point 2: Color of the flip. I honestly have NO knowledge of the flavor. I just replaced in as a favor to a friend. So, I saw a NON RED flip with Gerhard when I replaced in. THIS IS NOT A MAFIA FLIP COLOR. Unless there are two mafias, doubtful given number of kills and the fact we lost our BP D1. So, I am forced to conclude he is either an SK, or, as I would most likely postulate given the flavor, CULT.

The reason this initially made Jaime scummy is I figured it was well known that non red flip colors, as a rule, tend to be non mafia flips. And that Jaime was trying to lead you all astray from his faction. Does this make sense? Of course, everyone assumed scum was shot so it becomes a null tell, but it still makes me feel ill at ease.

Point 3: If it weren't for the fact my opinion on the swing vote had been revised, I would have preferred to save it for F4 after Jaime scum flipped. As it stands, no lynch is a decent idea.

I am still doing the re-read, sorry but Spencer accurate wall post (for which I thank him) is making the process slower.

Fortunately for you every post I talk about with a few exceptions (generally more joking comments) is linked, so you can conveniently loop back to key points of the game ^-^

Now I will respond to Jaime in a separate post.

[Spencer Remmington]

Ok, this might take a while...

Post 59: Yeah... I don't remember exactly what I was thinking then but I guess that I didn't really know what to discuss. I guess I was just waiting until someone else started the discussion.

Post 78: I'm not going to put a vote on someone just because they voted with no explaination (as that was the only thing against him at that point). It was the continued refusal and other general scumminess that made me eventually vote him.

Post 83: Yep, I (almost) voted town. Can't argue with you about that. What i am wondering though is what does Emiles flip have to do with this?

87: The reason for the vote was again his refusal to explain his vote, his lack of defense etc.

95: I never said "If he's a townie he needs to die". I said if he was a townie he's really hurting town and hurting town is scummy.

127: Not explaining votes is anti-town because it helps out scum (usually) and doesn't help town at all. (I guess under extreme circumstances it would be townish or at least null but from what I can tell it's still scummy). Also, again, yes, of course I was fishing because I thought he was a secret daycop -_- And you don't like my condecending tone? How is a tone scummy? I agree that sometimes I do have a condecending tone but that's just me, my personality. (and besides, being condecending is fun :D)

177: I was willing to beleive that he was a bp. That does not mean that he's auto clear in my book. If he could prove to me that he was townish I would be willing to beleive he was a bp (at least for then anyway).

251: Because him hiding his reasons was a big part of why I was voting him. If he could tell me why he voted with no explaination (and if it made sense of course) I would be happier. Also, the me beleiving his claim thing was talked about earlier.

269: What does this post have to do with me? Where's the wikitell? I don't see gloating. I'm confused.

303: I backtrack from Emile because the only thing I had on him was that Stuart could have had some kind of info on him which seemed very unlikely from his flip. Also, talk to all he other people who put Otto above Emile. The things on Otto greatly outweighed the things on Stuart.

319: This lies in my lack of knoledge of XCOM. i saw the alieness of his flip and thought to myself "The intro flavor text said the scum were aliens that means Gerhard must be scum!" I had no idea at the time that there were multiple alien races (well, I didn't think there weren't. I was unsure) or even if there were i didn't know that they were (supposedly) going against each other.

378: In a normal mafia game there are 3 scum. I was (and still am) this is an avarage game.

389: See before.

404: I was not going to vote them just because of low content (until later when Igor suggested we all vote and I decided just to put a placeholder vote).

416: i was not protecting Emile. I was just saying Leon was worse then Emile.

419: kay

427: 1. Yes Edward was right about Emile 2. I was not discrediting Edward I was defending myself (except for where I stated the possibility that hecould just be using his post to protect himself). 3. Nowhere in this post have I attacked OR defended Emile.

430: Like I said, placeholder vote. I had no intentions of keeping my vote on Leon if he was about to be lynched unless he started to appear scummier.

439: I was acting obviously anti-town and I was possibly hurting the town. Now, before you say "He just admited he was acting anti-town and so he acted more townie to get suspicion off of him!" Hear me out. Assuming I am town, why would I purposefully hurt the town with my vote on Leon?

454: I don't see it.

493: kay

548: Again, what does this post have to do with me? Yes, I see it as gloating. But still, if Igor was kept alive at that point it would seem that he would be tomorrows lynch (assuming we would not lynch today). Which brings me to my next point:

Spencer: Why do you vote? Please tell me why you think a lynch would be better then not lynching today because the way I see it unless we got a bastard mod (a crapload of scum and a whetever the hell Gerhard was) it seems that the best play today would be to not lynch.

Also, since it a huge wall of text it is very easy for me to have skipped over something so Spencer: if there is anything i missed that you want me to respond to please feel free to tell me :D

Alright, let's begin ^-^.

Post 78: Rereading your post I'll accept this. It still feels like you are calling him out without committing, but not as strongly as I thought.

Post 83: Was a terrible point and I shouldn't have raised it. Far too many people were in agreement for it to be a scumtell. At best you were fence sitting a little bit.

Post 87: I had a change of opinion between my break so this is also somewhat negated by the fact that too many people agreed on Stuart for things to be told either way.

Post 95: "If he's townie" statements tend to bug me in general. Of note is it gives you a "Well, so what if he was town?" excuse to pick up later. This isn't as bad as I initially thought though.

Post 127: Your tone isn't scummy, just added to my dislike of the post. Maybe I should separate dislike into "dislike for scuminess" "dislike for personality" :P. But at any rate, I don't care about the explanation now to be honest. The "it just IS" argument is what bugged me back then, but the fishing was indeed worse. Ok, you thought he was a secret daycop. What possible purpose would revealing this information serve? Rather, pro-town purpose?

Post 177: Not good enough. This is a fence sit. You can't have bought his claim yet wanted him dead unless you thought he was a SCUM bulletproof, but your post didn't convey that. It conveyed "Ok, prob town but I wanna see reasons for his vote so I won't unvote

someone I think is town

"

Post 251: This was a bad point, fueled by bias. Honestly, anything you said would have probably got me off on you. Nullifying point.

Post 296: Sorry, I got inconsistent. That wasn't directed towards you so much as the general group. Gloating is a wiki scumtell (from the mafia wiki), but I think it applies here. the "That was a shocker thing" felt like a veiled "WHOO! He was town!" to me.

Post 303: Fair. Dropped point.

Post 319: It wasn't XCOM knowledge. In fact, XCOM knowledge is against me in this case apparently. It was his flip color. That said, this became a null tell fast.

Post 378: Given the reliance on the Gerhard point, I'm forced to agree. However, if you flip scum, I would be led to believe we have 1 more scum to deal with, outside of Ger.

Post 389: Null at this point.

Post 404: What WILL you vote for then? You can't just wait for the scum to come to you. You have to actively fight for them. Even if it's weak put on a bold face, on both your words and your um...face. It gets REACTIONS. Reactions are GOOD.

Post 416: My bias read this as a chainsaw to be honest. I am, however, lead to retract this view. My apologies.

Post 427: Not in that post, overall (wrt Emile). As for discrediting

If Edward is scum I can easily see him using this post to protect himself "After rereading I think Stuart is pro-town" can be used to get town points for saying a confirmed townie was acting townish (especially since a lot of people thought he was scummy)

That speaks for itself.

post 430: The problem is, by saying that, you leave an out for you to backtrack if the winds change on you. Which is scummy.

Post 439: Could you explain this better? I'm confused. As for hurting town wrt Leon, you basically went back to having little to no obvious stance when you unvoted Leon, especially since it didn't appear you had a reason to unvote him. It felt like preparation to bus or move to the biggest wagon.

Post 548: Igor would not have been lynched unless you all were complete morons. No offense intended, but it would have been stupid to lynch Igor after he was the counterwagon against CONFIRMED SCUM. As for what it has to do with you, again, it was inconsistent formatting. That was to everyone.

Spencer: Why do you vote? Please tell me why you think a lynch would be better then not lynching today because the way I see it unless we got a bastard mod (a crapload of scum and a whetever the hell Gerhard was) it seems that the best play today would be to not lynch.

Before I reread the swing vote, I was certain you were scum. Someone dying, unless it was you (unlikely), would not have swayed me. I also felt I had a decent chance at convincing the rest of the town of your scuminess. As such, saving the no lynch for F4 was the optimal play in my eyes. However, with the swing vote, things are in a lot more flux. Effectively, a death will give me more information with regards to all players, I'd think. So, I do support a no lynch now. But I didn't earlier.

Either way, I think that at this point either Leon or Claude has to be scum. I still think Jaime COULD be, but is less likely to be. Edward is probably the most pro town. Andrew is kinda iffy but I remember a lot of decent opinions from him so I tentatively see him as town.

[Leon Dreyfus]

Andrew is town to me, his opinions throughout this game have lead to nothing more than catching scum. He was an active part of the discussion on each day and I have an excellent gut read on him.

Jaime is pretty much the scum partner if any, although I'd say there are three. Meaning we cannot mislynch. Anyways, he hasn't amounted to much of anything other than a constant distraction. At time throughout the game he defended Emile heavily, and then at others he attacked him. Seemed to me a failed distancing attempt in many shapes and forms. My gut read on him was terrible ever since he butted heads with me on D1, it just felt TvS. Go back and look at it for yourself. It just doesn't feel like to town forces. With that gumption, I will claim. I am a Vanilla Townie. I do not remember if that is the exact name of it or not as I do not have my role PM on this account. So I cannot refer to it. Anyways,

Vote: Jaime

Claude has given me several odd vibes throughout the game, however, my gut is calling him town. I'm usually not one to rely on gut but I've been trying to improve my gut skills. He just comes off to me as town.

Edward in all honesty was excellent in my book until he all of the sudden claims I'm scum. No notion of it until that point. So it kinda made me think he was grasping. He apparently had me as the most townie, iirc, in that post on D2 I believe. Then all of the sudden with no leading changes, he comes out that I'm scum. No, that just didn't hit me well. It seemed like he majorly backpedaled. However, looking back at it now I don't see it as bad considering he made a solid stance on me on D2.

UNLIKE JAIME WHO HAS LEFT AREA TO BACKOUT THE ENIIIIIIIRRRREEEE GAME!

Spencer I honestly don't have a gut read on you. You're pretty much nuetral to me, but definitely leaning town for today.

So my vote lands and rests on Jaime.

[Leon Dreyfus]

Referred to my role PM now, and it was Merely Average Aquanaut.

[Jaime Marcelle]

Blargh, I don't really want to respond to another wall again XD. Anyway, I just skimmed through and picked out a few points that I thought were the more important ones so of course please tell me if you want me to respond to someting else.

177: Again, I did not think he was town. There is a very big differance between something that is beleivable and actually beleiving it. Stuart claimed bp. I thought that it was a beleivable claim (meaning that it's not some weird thing he probably made up like a secret daycop) but I was not willing to beleive it until he could prove me otherwise. I know that was a very bad post after looking back again and that it does look like a fencesit but whatev, there's nothing I can do about it now.

319: Flip color? Really? This is a really bad point. Color does not tell someone what faction they belonged to. Mods can use any color they fucking want. For example, If someone died and it said "Hypothetical person (Cop)" in red (as that seems to be the most used scum color) would you think he was scum or a townie? What most people look at (at least me anyway) is thae flavor text and the flip name.

404: Which is why I put the placeholder vote on Leon. I also look for overall scumminess, not just one scummy thing that they do. Of course if that one scummy thing is big enough I will look at them closely (which I did for Leon and Emile at that point) or vote them if it is rediculously scummy.

430: This is Leons post.

439: I took my vote off because obviously I wasn't helping out the town with it at all and I was possibly hurting the town. Now why would a townie purposefully hurt the town? (Also, this is overall just a reworded summary of what I said in my response because I can't think of any other way to explain it better. If you still don't understand I'm sure I could think of something).

With that gumption, I will claim. I am a Vanilla Townie. I do not remember if that is the exact name of it or not as I do not have my role PM on this account. So I cannot refer to it. Anyways, Vote: Jaime

Two things.

1. Why do you feel the need to claim?
2. If there are 3 scum then we're at lylo and it would be smarter to not lynch today right? Or do you think that there are 3 scum alive now?

Claude has given me several odd vibes throughout the game, however, my gut is calling him town. I'm usually not one to rely on gut but I've been trying to improve my gut skills. He just comes off to me as town.

... Really? Now THIS is obviosly something someone can back out on...

Claude has given me several odd vibes throughout the game, however, my gut is calling him town. I'm usually not one to rely on gut but I've been trying to improve my gut skills. He just comes off to me as town.

Your PM says that your a "Merely avarage aquanaut"?