Newbie 869 - Game over

[Nachomamma8]

Here's what I gained from it: you think Sens is scum because he thought he caught a scumslip of Elli's (which may or may not be true), then tunnelled on Elli (especially on D2, when he claims he got a guilty) and then used some appeals to authority and got a little egotistical (after he got the guilty, again). I'm just wondering why you're so upset - Elli was scum. Sens did a good job pushing for that lynch, and while it might be a ginormous bus, all his posts on D2 come across as exactly what he claimed to be - a cop with a guilty. Correct me if I'm wrong about your arguments.

My point is that his case on Elli was absolutely horrible, and he was dropping scumtells all over the place. He claimed cop AFTER several people had already hinted that they thought he was the cop.

@nacho:

do you remember what general thing it was about?

His not voting on the Elli wagon and his interactions with Sens.

@Nacho: would you agree that even with the chance of SF being scum, it is not really a very smart move to lynch him now considering there's just as much evidence to show that he is the cop?

There's not evidence that he's cop. All we know is that he isn't vanilla.

[Deer]

My point is that his case on Elli was absolutely horrible, and he was dropping scumtells all over the place. He claimed cop AFTER several people had already hinted that they thought he was the cop.

Well, he had to try and make a case on Elli without directly claiming cop, I believe. The whole AtoAs and bussing business seemed like just a way to convince the town to lynch Elli without outing his report - after all, Elli didn't do anything THAT outright scummy.

@nacho:

do you remember what general thing it was about?

His not voting on the Elli wagon and his interactions with Sens.

You say that, but when Finch asked about your vote, you said:

Nope. Any other guesses, Finchy? Let's put some effort into this guess instead of just looking at jee's case on you...

And guess what jee's case on Finch consisted of? Finch not voting on the Elli wagon and his interactions with Sens. Explain yourself, please.

@Nacho: would you agree that even with the chance of SF being scum, it is not really a very smart move to lynch him now considering there's just as much evidence to show that he is the cop?

There's not evidence that he's cop. All we know is that he isn't vanilla.

Nobody else has claimed to be cop. There's a much better shot that he's cop than anyone else around here. Also, guys, keep in mind there may be no roleblocker: one of the possible setups is 2 goons, a cop, and the rest 'nillas.

[Nachomamma8]

Well, he had to try and make a case on Elli without directly claiming cop, I believe. The whole AtoAs and bussing business seemed like just a way to convince the town to lynch Elli without outing his report - after all, Elli didn't do anything THAT outright scummy.

First of all, he dropped plenty of scumtells on Day 1 that you ignored. Second of all, bussing buiness was Day 1, before he had the supposed report in the first place. Third of all, Ellibereth was scummy. Unless you all actually believed the bussing bullshit...

And guess what jee's case on Finch consisted of? Finch not voting on the Elli wagon and his interactions with Sens. Explain yourself, please.

Explain that Jee saw the same things I did, and I remember spotting those things?

Nobody else has claimed to be cop. There's a much better shot that he's cop than anyone else around here. Also, guys, keep in mind there may be no roleblocker: one of the possible setups is 2 goons, a cop, and the rest 'nillas.

There's no doubt he's the cop if we have one.
And if there's no doctor, then why the hell did we get a no-kill?

[jee]

Okay

@For TNM,

Well then there's only three other scenarios (that I can see):

1) Doctor protected SensFan, Scum for some reason tried to shoot and roleblock SensFan

2) Doctor protected someone other than SF, Scum shot at someone other than SF, just happened to hit the same person

- Both of these seem just as ridiculous

3) Scum decided not to use their night actions for strategy reasons.

- Seems plausible, although it still puts the mafia in a weakened position by not shooting anyone.

Scum missing the deadline almost seems like the most reasonable out of all the scenarios - it was Christmas afterall.

but you can't completely forget about the first two 'ridiculous' cases. IMO, the 3rd case comes out to be more rediculous than the second.

If you were a mafia for this game, give me one good strategic reason why you would not use any nightroles.

I'll have to have a think about it, but in the meantime could you tell me what you yourself can gather from all of last night's actions and what you think may have happened, and if it will affect your vote at all (or if possible who you are leaning towards as scum)?

The most reasonable explination for me, is that a doctor decided to block someone else besides SensFan. Whether he didn't like SensFan's counter-claim, or he was trying something out of the ordinary and blocking someone the mafia wouldn't expect. I have an idea who I think is doctor, which helps build this.

As for the roleblock, it doesn't make sense how SensFan didn't get roleblocked. Which is why my top suspect is turning into SensFan. I believe he may have either 1. He's mafia and didn't think about it thouroghly and slipped. or 2. Mafia purposely didn't roleblock to confuse us, which doesn't make sense.


Looking back, SensFan didn't say a whole lot for us to build a case on him. He was set on one thing, lynching Elli for Day 1 and Day 2. There were plenty of other suspects to go on.

I did find one thing that caught my attention. Back in Post 336, the very next post that Elli says after SensFan counterclaims:

Sens has shown a clear willingness as scum to trade himself for a town power-role in past newbie games.

See this game: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9218

Anyway, I call total BS to his claim.

Unvote, Vote Sensfan

If I do go today, my bet is on a Sensfan, Deer scumpair.

First why is a previous game the FIRST thing someone points out after a counterclaim? Usually a defense occurs in the situation rather than another attack.

Second, click on the link... this is 'Newbie Game 669'. Game current up to the 890's meaning this game was old. Looking back through the threads I found this game on page 3 of Road to Rome. Page 3 of 50 threads each. I find it hard to believe that Elli would search back about 150 threads to find this specific game, especially before SensFan counterclaimed. There was only 4.5 hours between the time SensFan counterclaimed and Elli posting this. So Elli had to first read SensFan's post, then search back through every game that SensFan played to find one case where he traded 1-for-1. In my opinion, SensFan is mafia.

Unvote

I think their plan was, SensFan buss from the start, leaving cop clues. Elli claims cop. If someone counterclaims, they NK cop. If not, SensFan counterclaims and sticks it out til the end. I believe he messed up when he said he had a clear on TNM.

After all, is it a coincidence that SensFan didn't post his counterclaim until after everyone else posted. Is it a coincidence that he chose to check the person no one really suspected, and not the person who was next to lynch on the town list.. like me.

I think not

Vote SensFan

Next on suspect list:
Mr.Finch
Deer

[Nachomamma8]

After all, is it a coincidence that SensFan didn't post his counterclaim until after everyone else posted. Is it a coincidence that he chose to check the person no one really suspected, and not the person who was next to lynch on the town list.. like me.

This especially stood out to me. Instead of narrowing down the lynch list like a true cop would've done, he decided to investigate someone who town generally had a town read on.

[SensFan]

Just popping in here, but I must say, any Cop that wastes an investigation on someone he has a scumread on isn't a very good Cop. I investigated the person I had the least clear read on, which is by far the best play.

Also, if I bussed a partner as hard as some of you are accusing me of bussing Elli, there's no doubt in my mind VRK (who is modding this game, so of course sees it) would absolutely have banned me from ICing again. The IC is here to help teach other players about a game of Mafia; and to completely make sure your NewbPartner is lynched would be a massive problem. My primary goal isn't to win, of course. My goal is to help teach Mafia.

[Deer]

Explain that Jee saw the same things I did, and I remember spotting those things?

But you said that was not what you suspected Finch for, as I quoted previously. That vote still looks really scummy to me right now, especially seeing how you can't even explain it anymore. I want a solid answer, not more BS about how you forgot or whatever.

As for jee...here we go again with the bandwagoning. Sens posting his CC late could be due to a variety of reasons - he said he was busy with school, moving, what have you, and still hasn't posted that much today.

Let me make one thing clear to you guys.

WE ARE NOT LYNCHING AN UN-CC'D COP TODAY. I don't care what you say. If he is mafia, we can deal with that at a later point. I refuse to lynch someone who may very well be the cop at this point in the game. We can lynch wrong and still come out okay, so lynching a possible cop right now is an EXTREMELY dumb move. If he lives another day, we can deal with his scumminess tomorrow. If he gets killed, and ends up being cop, then TNM is undoubtedly town. Please stop voting Sens.

[Nachomamma8]

Just popping in here, but I must say, any Cop that wastes an investigation on someone he has a scumread on isn't a very good Cop. I investigated the person I had the least clear read on, which is by far the best play.

That is, unless you're in a 1M-MyLo situation with 1 scum left where getting a guilty would win the game. Clearing a scumread of yours would also definitely prevent a mislynch, and would also give us the option of examining other options for lynch.

Also, if I bussed a partner as hard as some of you are accusing me of bussing Elli, there's no doubt in my mind VRK (who is modding this game, so of course sees it) would absolutely have banned me from ICing again. The IC is here to help teach other players about a game of Mafia; and to completely make sure your NewbPartner is lynched would be a massive problem. My primary goal isn't to win, of course. My goal is to help teach Mafia.

Well, there's doubt in mind. It's not that hard to explain to a partner pre-game why you're going to bus him, and as for your primary goal, it had better be to win. If you want to teach Mafia to everyone else, then playing your absolute hardest is the way to go. Your job as an IC is to get newbies prepared for games outside of the Road to Rome; that job isn't being completed when you're playing with kiddie gloves on.

But you said that was not what you

primarily

suspected Finch for, as I quoted previously. That vote still looks really scummy to me right now, especially seeing how you can't even explain it anymore. I want a solid answer, not more BS about how you forgot or whatever.

Bolded is mine. And, for the last time, I forgot. Do you want me to make up a completely bullshit case on MrFinch? Because if you need me to do that, I will. Gladly.

WE ARE NOT LYNCHING AN UN-CC'D COP TODAY. I don't care what you say. If he is mafia, we can deal with that at a later point. I refuse to lynch someone who may very well be the cop at this point in the game. We can lynch wrong and still come out okay, so lynching a possible cop right now is an EXTREMELY dumb move. If he lives another day, we can deal with his scumminess tomorrow. If he gets killed, and ends up being cop, then TNM is undoubtedly town. Please stop voting Sens.

Ever heard of pressure votes? I'm not afraid of someone hammering because if they do, they're scum. I'm using the time now to make Sens defend himself, as well as drawing out piggyback voters such as Jee, and lurkers like MrFinch. Now saying this, the majority of the pressure is now gone, so I suppose I'll just say that if Sens ignores my case against him, I'll make sure he's lynched tomorrow.

TNM is town. We don't need Sens's cop flip for that.

[Deer]

Ever heard of pressure votes? I'm not afraid of someone hammering because if they do, they're scum.

That's not necessarily true. Now I don't think that Finch or TNM will hammer on Sens, but if they were other, less smart, players, I think they might based on all the effort you're putting into your case. A vote is a vote, whether it's a hammer or not. I just don't want Sens getting lynched today because of you.

[Nachomamma8]

That's not necessarily true. Now I don't think that Finch or TNM will hammer on Sens,

but if they were other, less smart, players

, I think they might based on all the effort you're putting into your case. A vote is a vote, whether it's a hammer or not. I just don't want Sens getting lynched today because of you.

I don't care about other circumstances. You don't seem that concerned about Sens being hammered today in THESE circumstances either, so why are you trying to convince me to unvote? Do you want me to unvote because you aren't convinced Sens is scum, or are you just being careful?

I've also noticed you've barely commented on my case. What parts of it do you disagree with? What parts of it do you agree with?

[totallynotmafia]

Well, I'm not voting SensFan today, Deer isn't voting SensFan today, and I'm pretty sure SensFan isn't voting SensFan today, so if my maths is right I'm pretty sure he's safe. There's the possibility that he's scum but it just doesn't make any sense to lynch him at this point, especially because it's all just speculation based on a massive bus. I'm probably the one who's gonna get shot so I'm willing to take the risk. I will need much more solid evidence in order to lynch him today. Speaking of which...

Just popping in here, but I must say, any Cop that wastes an investigation on someone he has a scumread on isn't a very good Cop. I investigated the person I had the least clear read on, which is by far the best play.

Hang on, but you investigated Ellie, a prime suspect of yours on night one. Care to explain that?

Hmm...maybe there's more to the case on SF than I thought...


Still, I think it's better to take the risk and lynch someone else. When jee asked me what possible strategy there could be for scum to not use their night actions, it got me thinking, and I came up with one possible strategy and I was almost going to post it but I thought a better idea would be to hear from jee first. I was reading another newbie game the other day, where the town almost lost because they lynched the cop (after he had claimed) near the end of the game. He came up with an innocent on somebody, then everybody was like "wait a minute, how could you have come up with a result on somebody, the mafia would have definately roleblocked you, you must be scum!" so they lynched him. Turns out that in that mod's game rules when there was only one scum left they had to choose between the NK and the RB actions, so the scum chose NK, and got the freebie of the added confusion afterwards. So it may be possible that scum chose not to RB SF to turn the tables on him, and if we have a look back...

Only mafia (and the doctor) know if there is a doctor right now. If there is a doctor, there is a Mafia Roleblocker as well. Mafia Roleblockers can kill and roleblock on the same night.

So, answer me this: What kind of Mafia would NOT roleblock the claimed cop, and still try to kill him?

As for the roleblock, it doesn't make sense how SensFan didn't get roleblocked. Which is why my top suspect is turning into SensFan. I believe he may have either 1. He's mafia and didn't think about it thouroghly and slipped. or 2. Mafia purposely didn't roleblock to confuse us, which doesn't make sense.

That's why I gave jee the opportunity to answer first before I posted my theory, it relied on the scum accusing SF afterwards. Nachomamma is steadily climbing the ranks of suspicion, but at the moment I'm not sure if it's just because he has an aggressive playstyle.

Considering jee just waggoned again I think that's where my vote will stay. He's on the top of my scum list and even if he's not scum, he may be dangerous to have in the LyLo situation given his eagerness to jump on a vote.

[jee]

Ok well I was going to have to do this eventually... And I decided to do it now before I might have been NKd or something.

I AM THE DOCTOR

I figured this information was vital for the town to know. Meaning if SensFan is really the cop, there is a roleblocker still out there.

Assuming the mafia tried to nightkill, I decided to save Nachomamma, which clears him as town.

My list was:
SensFan
Deer
Mr.Finch
TNM
Nachomamma


My choice came from this reasoning.

Deer: He was under a lot of suspicion for being Elli's partner and it would be good for mafia to keep him around.

Mr.Finch: after my reread, I decided Mr.Finch is the most suspicious and I believed him to be mafia. My case I posted after it became day will help back that up. It would make sense to save who I thought was mafia.

TNM: He was very suspicious of me, along with a few other people. So mafia would keep him around to help lead the town into a mislynch.

SensFan: Now, yes.. SensFan was the CC'd cop. But don't you think that would be obvious to protect him? Mafia 'know' I'm going to protect him. They would have a much better chance at killing someone else. Someone who wasn't under very much suspicion at the time...

Like... Nachomamma. So I protected him, and there was no NK. You're Welcome


SO,

jee: Doctor
Nachomamma: cleared by doc
TNM: cleared by town/cleared from possible Cop
SensFan: possible Cop.. still unsure how I feel
Deer: unknown
Mr.Finch: unknown

Hope that helps lead you guys in the right direction.

[totallynotmafia]

Who did you protect night one?

ps I don't get how protecting nachomamma clears him, there's still the possibility of no scum night actions submitted

[jee]

Who did you protect night one?

ps I don't get how protecting nachomamma clears him, there's still the possibility of no scum night actions submitted

You're right.

I protected rpg^twilight night 1. He seemed most innocent at the time. And you replaced him

[Deer]

Still doesn't explain the lack of roleblock, though. If there is a doctor/cop, then there is a roleblocker around, and if there was a NK attempt, there also would have been a roleblocking attempt.

Here are the scenarios/setups we face right now:

1. 1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Roleblocker, 1 Sane Cop, 1 Sane Doctor, 5 Townies

Both Sens and jee are telling the truth. If that's the case, then I think mafia must have missed the deadline - they wouldn't have tried to NK someone else, and not roleblock Sens.

2. 2 Mafia Goons, 1 Sane Cop, 6 Townies

Sens is telling the truth, jee is mafia. This is a possibility, too, but still doesn't explain the lack of nightkill. If this happened, jee may have no-killed as mafia to then claim doctor and fake a doctor save. Or, yet again, he may have simply missed the deadline.

3. 2 Mafia Goons, 1 Sane Doctor, 6 Townies

Jee is telling the truth, Sens is lying. However, I'm not sure that Sens would be willing to pull off such a massive bus, especially in a newbie game where his mafia partner is playing his first game ever. This does explain the no-kill and Sens not getting blocked, though.

Take that for what you will. In my mind, jee is not clear yet - he's been more scummy than Sens has. We'll see, though. This game just got a lot more interesting.

[totallynotmafia]

Still doesn't explain the lack of roleblock, though. If there is a doctor/cop, then there is a roleblocker around, and if there was a NK attempt, there also would have been a roleblocking attempt.

Here are the scenarios/setups we face right now:

1. 1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Roleblocker, 1 Sane Cop, 1 Sane Doctor, 5 Townies

Both Sens and jee are telling the truth. If that's the case, then I think mafia must have missed the deadline - they wouldn't have tried to NK someone else, and not roleblock Sens.

2. 2 Mafia Goons, 1 Sane Cop, 6 Townies

Sens is telling the truth, jee is mafia. This is a possibility, too, but still doesn't explain the lack of nightkill. If this happened, jee may have no-killed as mafia to then claim doctor and fake a doctor save. Or, yet again, he may have simply missed the deadline.

3. 2 Mafia Goons, 1 Sane Doctor, 6 Townies

Jee is telling the truth, Sens is lying. However, I'm not sure that Sens would be willing to pull off such a massive bus, especially in a newbie game where his mafia partner is playing his first game ever. This does explain the no-kill and Sens not getting blocked, though.

Take that for what you will. In my mind, jee is not clear yet - he's been more scummy than Sens has. We'll see, though. This game just got a lot more interesting.

I wasn't going to suggest it just yet but now that you've said it I was beginning to think along the lines of number 2. I've gone back and everything jee has said after the previous night backs up his claim, which threw me for a bit of a loop. However, I think it's possible he may have planned this from before the previous night, knowing that he may need an alibi and he would know if there were two goons that he could get away with claiming doc as there wouldn't be one in the game with Sens as cop. In order to solidify the claim he then may have not submitted his NK in order to make it look like he protected nachomamma. It's a pretty big risk to not kill the cop, but with a fair amount of suspicion on him it may be one jee was willing to take. This also shows why Ellie may have claimed cop as with two mafia goons there was a chance that there wouldn't be a cop in the game and so there may have been no CC.

I think there's a good chance jee has planned this whole doc claim, so my vote is staying with him for the moment.

I'm willing to rule out number three for the moment too. Looking at that last post of SensFan:

Just popping in here, but I must say, any Cop that wastes an investigation on someone he has a scumread on isn't a very good Cop. I investigated the person I had the least clear read on, which is by far the best play.

Also, if I bussed a partner as hard as some of you are accusing me of bussing Elli, there's no doubt in my mind VRK (who is modding this game, so of course sees it) would absolutely have banned me from ICing again. The IC is here to help teach other players about a game of Mafia; and to completely make sure your NewbPartner is lynched would be a massive problem. My primary goal isn't to win, of course. My goal is to help teach Mafia.

I really don't think that ICs are allowed to defend their actions based on the fact that they're IC, so I think he's telling the truth. I would still like SensFan to answer my question on him investigating Ellie night 1 though.

Number 1 is still a definate possibility so...

@Nachomamma: If SensFan and jee are both telling the truth, that puts you at the top of my scum list. What do you think of jee's claim?

Also...@Mr Finch: Haven't heard from you in a while, what do you make of all of this and who are you leaning towards as scum?

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Official Vote Count

SensFan - 2 (Nachomamma8, jee)

jee - 1 (totallynotmafia)
Nachomamma8 - 1 (Deer)

Not Voting - 2 (Mr Finch, SensFan)

4 to Lynch.

Deadline

is the end of Friday, January 15.

[Mr Finch]

Guys

I am sorry to do this to you but things have hit the fan at home and I don't have the ability to continue with the game.

Please accept my humble apologies, I know this will adversely affect the game, but I hope not

too

much.

Thanks for letting me play and good luck to all!

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Looking for a replacement.

[Nachomamma8]

I think there's a good chance jee has planned this whole doc claim, so my vote is staying with him for the moment.

No. Lynching an uncounterclaimed cop when we're 1M-LyLo is the worst possible action we can take at this point.

[Deer]

I think there's a good chance jee has planned this whole doc claim, so my vote is staying with him for the moment.

No. Lynching an uncounterclaimed cop when we're 1M-LyLo is the worst possible action we can take at this point.

Did you mean doc? Or did you think TNM was talking about Sens?

[jee]

The whole reason I claimed now was because I didn't want people to think it was a desperation fake claim when I'm in L-1.

[Nachomamma8]

I meant doc.

But cop is the same.

[totallynotmafia]

Ok, so lynching an uncounterclaimed doc is a big no-no but lynching an uncounterclaimed cop is totally fine?


@Mr Finch: No worries.


@jee:yeah I figured that was why you claimed now, which is either a good idea as the doc or a good play as scum. Right now for me it's 50/50.

[Nachomamma8]

[quote=totallynotmafia"]
Ok, so lynching an uncounterclaimed doc is a big no-no but lynching an uncounterclaimed cop is totally fine?
[/quote]
Cop: Gives results we aren't sure are true until he's dead.

Doctor: When you're 1 mislynch away from MyLo, a doctor can give you another day, and another chance to find scum.