Mafia 108 - Mafia With The Quickness - over!

[Bogre]

Disliking random voting doesn't mean he wouldn't do it, KMD. ^

Vote: St. Kerrigan

Why are you adverse to starting a bandwagon in the first post?

[Bogre]

@Netopalis:

Any comments aside from RVS theory?

[Bogre]

Well yeah. I'm known to be a lurker - if you didn't know that, you do now. I talked to Incog and he let me in as long as I didn't lurk. I thought it would be better if I was here for the start because of that.

Not gonna lie, that's a weird thing to expect. That you'd have to be here right at the start. It actually makes sense though with your reasoning.

She's mentioned that in every game I've played with her in, I think, so I don't think its anything beyond a disclaimer for her meta.

[Bogre]

@Kerrigan:

Don't think elaborating on town reads is good at this stage.

I also think spending too much time discussing if RVS is useful or not is worthless- it allows people to post things that look like content, look intellectual or whatever, without actually having to confront other players or respond to them.

[Bogre]

Why would you need a dice tag to chose a bandwagon?...

To pick one randomly, I assume?

Why don't you have any thoughts beyond 'why did he use dice'?

Unvote
Vote: Zachrulez

[Bogre]

Bull. Sounds more like attempted justification for things you already know.

Pretty unsubstantial, only matches with an FOS.

[Bogre]

Ok, some things in which I discuss RVS:

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12274 - My first newbie game.
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12744 - My research project that is underway
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12305 - A MD discussion in which I propose another system other than RVS

There are 3 more games that I am thinking of - one is entering its last day, so I can post the link to it once it finishes up. The other two are still on-going, though.

Why are you back to discussing theory? Or...talking about you talking about theory?

[Bogre]

I believe the above vote is valid, and Neto's feelings on the matter make me think a bit more favorably towards him.

It seems frustrated, his past posts have indicated him taking a logical approach, and thus the above shows continuity with his past feelings- continuity of expression is a town tell, imo. Shows he hasn't been making up his feelings.

[Bogre]

It doesn't. I would ask you for something you can be pinned too to some degree incase Mae flips. Probably why I really voted in this game yet. Nothing I want to be pinned too.

The cautious scum is cautious.

[Bogre]

Ahm, no. It's closely related to that, but it isn't that. If KMD thinks that Haylen is town, and SK was voting for Haylen, I couldn't see how he thought that they were both town. ?

It's not mutually exclusive- are you still confused about it?

[Bogre]

Hey where's Bogre?

For someone who voted me for having relatively little to say, he hasn't had a lot to say in a while.

... I love playing with hypocrites.

I got stuck traveling without access to a computer.

And the difference between our posts is clear. You post, but you don't -say- anything. You post to post, and to escape the possibility that people don't like you not posting.

You're not contributing anything.

[Bogre]

Couple of nice mis-reps there, but If I'm not willing to be held accountable for the reason for my vote, then I shouldn't vote.
Voting with no reason, or for "Shites and giigles" is not helpful because there's nothing you can be held accountable for if you're wrong.

So you:
A) Don't want to be held accountable for anything yourself.
B) Want to hold others accountable for their votes, and dislike it if they aren't.

That is, I believe, the definition of scum play.

[Bogre]

Also, Ellibereth, I would like a list of who you think is just making 'noise', and also give a justification as to why your own posts are not noise.

[Bogre]

How does Neto's claim make him more likely to be town? I don't understand that reasoning.

I see the claim as the perfect kind of low maintanence, perfect explanation for one's continued survival over the course of the game kind of claim.

Also not really liking those quick unvotes.

I imagine you wouldn't, since it now allows people to focus more on you.

[Bogre]

Er, the question wasn't asked of me? I just quoted the entire post.

With the recent comments suggesting they'd be willing to look at your lynch, you would certainly be adverse to having people unvote Neto.

Your two posts on this page, 1)Don't believe the claim, 2) Not liking the unvotes, suggest that you are worried about a wagon developing on you. You've not voiced any reasons for your comments, either.

[Bogre]

Addition:

Basically, your play is mostly in reaction to people focusing on you, weak comments about others, and avoidance of situations in which you'd have to deal with suspicion.

[Bogre]

^ What about the Zach bandwagon strikes you as -fast-? I think you are just reacting to the Netopolis vote because you have yourself set in the belief that he is scum, or even possibly are intentionally trying to make him look bad. I have been voting him for a long time, ST.Kerrigan recently unvoted, KMD was yesterday- Though I agree with you on the Gayle vote, though, as being pretty weak and as not much more than a bandwagon, I find nothing fast regarding Zachrulez wagon.

We don't have a lot of information regarding the game because HE DOESN'T POST CONTENT, not because of a bandwagon developing on him. And have you noticed how he enters to respond to questions or accusations? I'm sure he'll be around to answer the wagon, given that history, and so your comment that 'its too fast he won't claim and we won't get info' is inaccurate.

In fact, I think its possible you're edging a townie towards being deadlined, when your scumbuddy is on the line.

[Bogre]

Vote: Gayle

Did absolutely nothing yesterday -except- lynch Netlava. Noncontribution > Zach.

He was unwilling to vote for a long time- I need to check his votes but he wasn't very eager to commit to anything.

His 'Is this a bad time for a serious post' irks me.

Finally, he stated that he wouldn't mind lynching Neto because he thought it was going to happen anyways, mentions that it might as well be that day, but then a day later said he thought it would be a mislynch. I imagine he -knows- its a mislynch.

[Bogre]

Unvote: Gayle. Vote: Bogre.

Misrepresentation noted.

Misrepresentation? Where?

[Bogre]

See Gayle's latest post. It's in there.

I actually had to go back to page 20 to see what you were talking about - I started the catchup reading today at page 23 or 24. I had got the wrong impression from Ellibereth's and Gayle's back and forth, and switched their thoughts. Elli was talking about the lynch happening faster, Gayle was opposed.

So, that Gayle was supporting a Neto lynch before he suggested the mislynch is wrong.

He was still not contributing, and possibly knew that a Neto lynch was a mislynch/wanted to avoid a Zachrulez lynch.

[Bogre]

I don't like Zach's subtle attack on arguably the most pro-town player in this game (Maemuki). At least the most pro-town player on the Netlava wagon (well, besides me, but I have to say that ).

What makes her pro-town?

[Bogre]

But then couldn't you argue that I should also be lynched by the same principle? I also didn't support the Neto bandwagon and I don't feel like I've contributed much. Why Gayle over me?

Also, Maemuki was on the Netlava wagon,

stayed

on the Netlava wagon, even while other people were switching over to Neto or Zach (including me, who had also been on the Netlava wagon with her). Also, my gut feeling says she's town.

@ Haylen: How do you know Yos can't be lynched. Who told you?

-> Not supporting the Neto bandwagon isn't scummy in of itself- I didn't support it, if you'll notice. I didn't support the Neto wagon because I he looked more town than others. I don't know for sure if he is, but I thought other lynches were better. Which was Gayle's position, except he seems to know Neto is town instead of just preferring to lynch someone scummier. The scumminess additionally comes from unwillingness to commit- he said he thought the Neto wagon would be a mislynch, but didn't state why, and didn't vote much.

What, exactly, has he contributed? Why do you think you haven't? There are about 4 players who fluffed a lot more than they've looked critically into things, can you guess which ones I think have?

So yes, my suspicion went down after I realized I had gotten the wrong impression, but it is still significant per the noncontribution and lack of commitment.

[Bogre]

I don't like Zach's subtle attack on arguably the most pro-town player in this game (Maemuki). At least the most pro-town player on the Netlava wagon (well, besides me, but I have to say that ).

Not subtle at all. I don't agree with your assessment of Mae.

If you attack a player, you generally don't think he/she/it is pro-town.

Unless you're scum, in which case, you do.

[Bogre]

Do you have ground for that statement, Maemuki?

Please explain, in -full- detail, why you think that's the case, I'd be interested to hear it.

[Bogre]

Do you have ground for that statement, Maemuki?

I'll answer your question with a question: Have you done anything on this game? Do you have a single memorable post?

Oh, and by the way, I even forgot you were in the game. That's a pretty bad sign right there.

It is a bad sign, a sign of how little attention you're paying this game.

I find it strange you are unwilling to actually answer me.

For instance, things you probably should have gotten from my posts, if you were actively participating in this game:
1.) Stated I felt Neto's frustration with Elli showed townieness, and before that that he was doing nothing but talk theory.
2.) Voted for and pressured Zach over his own noncontribution
3.) Found Gayle unwilling to commit and scummy.
4.) (And this involves you) I referenced your claim to be a lurker as fighting against your meta. This is perhaps the strangest that you claim to 'not remember', since I was talking about you specifically and similar to what we're discussing now.

[Bogre]

It is a bad sign, a sign of how little attention you're paying this game.

You have posted 24 times. On a 722 post game that moves on super-speed. I think my forgetfulness is justified.

Posts =/= contribution.

I've just reread the first 7 pages, and found about 2 sentences of questions to KMD that can be considered content. In about 12 posts.

So...yeah, fluff...yup.

[Bogre]

*shrug* I'd suggest you reread yourself and find out exactly how much you haven't posted in so many words.

[Bogre]

Better yet - you post questions and I have to agree with that. But what good are questions without conclusions? What I mean is that while you ask questions, you never care about them again. That's not how question asking is supposed to work imo. If you have another opinion, please state it.

Valid, but I'll answer that my conclusions, the last day, were that Zachrulez was scum, and Neto was not, and so I did bring conclusions from those questions.

And, as I pointed out, content can be found in your post- its just easy to get lost in a lot of the joking with Haylen and others. I don't think I've ever claimed that you were not contributing on the level of Zach or Haylen or Gayle, but that you've posted an awful lot, but the noise to content ratio is significant, and can be labelled as fluff. It's impossible to know that its innocuous.

The discussion of this winding on, I think, is not that helpful and possibly distracting- You think I'm not contributing, I think you've posted a lot of fluff and thus been fairly lighthearted with less significant attention paid. The important thing is I think others have been worse.

[Bogre]

*shrug* I'd suggest you reread yourself and find out exactly how much you haven't posted in so many words.

I'd suggest you reread yourself and find out exactly how many answers to your questions you have elaborated on. Question asking without looking for answers to the questions is not pro-town. It's very anti-town actually.

That's all.

Also, in answer to this: I have examined answers to my questions, and if I didn't comment on an answer that probably means I was satisfied with the answer.

[Bogre]

KMD: Why do you think Haylen and Gayle are town? What is the difference between them and Zach?

[Bogre]

Cause I have more evidence on Neto. Because i wanted to pressure Yos.

And this is where you give that evidence.

[Bogre]

Bogre, Haylen looked town early Day 1. I'm no longer convinced. Gayle made that program to help him find scum. He's town. Zach was in serious danger of being lynched before Yos's idea to start a new wagon. So he's scum with Yos.

Re Haylen: Okay. I didn't see where he looked town D1, though.

Re Gayle: He -said- he made a program to find scum, have we actually seen it ?

Re Zach: Okay...do you feel that your view is supported by Yos's post-lynch actions? I agree that starting an alternate bandwagon is scummy, but I believe that Zach would still be a better candidate, because in either scenario Zach is still scum (and as St.Kerrigan suggests Yos as leader of the wagon is still in question):

1. TownYos starts bandwagon on Netlava because he thinks he's scum: Nothing clears Zach from his scumminess.

2.ScumYos starts bandwagon on Netlava to save Zach: Zach is increasedly scummy.

[Bogre]

He could have simply voted for Netopolis. Engineering a bandwagon with that little time is far from easy to do.

Obviously not that difficult, as it happened in what, 54 minutes?

[Bogre]

Unvote VOTE: Zachrulez

[Bogre]

The problem with analyzing motivations of people on a mislynch is that its so full of WIFOM as to the individual motivations of the people on it. See St.Kerrigan's post and the nebulousness of figuring out who is the responsible one for it. Indeed, the one who started the wagon probably is the most culpable, but it just as easily could have been opportunistic 2nd or 3rd, etc.

So...more for you than them. Any of those voters could have been serving the motivation to lynch someone else instead of you, but as I said its much harder to attribute a specific motivation to a specific wagoner. I believe at least one of them -had- that motivation, and so the end result is you are scum, and a good lynch, rather than trying to wade through the WIFOM wagoner by wagoner.

[Bogre]

And why does the logic NOT apply to Netopolis?

I never said it doesn't.

[Bogre]

The fact that most of the votes moved from me and most of the votes on Neto stayed put indicates pretty clearly that it's far more likely that the scum were on my wagon.

Hrmm, yet it seems like Netopalis has a large bandwagon already- one you're fully on.

So it seems that it might have worked, the alternate wagon, huh?

[Bogre]

[quote="Glork"

Considering

NETO WAS SLATED TO BE LYNCHED, NOT ZACH

, your "Yos/Zach" pairing is completely backwards. If Yos wanted to "save Zach" all he had to do was NOT VOTE ZACH. Heck, he could have just voted Neto and that would have ensured that Neto would have been lynched. So the only way your Yos/Zach pairing works is if Neto is scum with BOTH of them, and he had to find a completely separate wagon to save them both.


Nobody started or pushed the Lavawagon to save Zach. It would have been to save Neto.[/quote]

You're right, didn't realize this with all the Zach freaking out yesterday.

[Bogre]

Boy was I wrong about Neto and Gayle.

VOTE: Haylen

I feel it awfully likely you were bussing Neto, given the meaningless comments on him.

[Bogre]

I'm getting a new gut feeling though that Haylen is being set up for a mislynch...

Where is this gut feeling coming from?

It's developed in 8 posts?

[Bogre]

@ Bogre: It's due to a fresh ISO of Haylen and knowledge of Neto's role.

The latter of which you had at the beginning of this day, in which you were suspicious of Haylen.

So that leaves his Iso: what in it makes you feel better of him?

[Bogre]

In Haylen's case, I disagree- he has hardly played cautious, or even played with any kind of determinable motives or sense.

[Bogre]

(she)

sorry

[Bogre]

The first one is the most likely.

Vote: Kerri

Yet you listed Zach in 3/4 combinations, and Kerri only in 2/4.

[Bogre]

Unvote, VOTE: STkerrigan.

In looking at his voting analysis, he did three things:

1.Stayed off the Neto wagon
2. Joined the Zach wagon when it looked to gain speed
3. Willingly joined the Netlava wagon afterwards.

The wavering stance on Haylen the entire game is also an issue, especially today's.

[Bogre]

So, Bogre, do you have any response to my attacks on you?

I believe the 'I was wrong about Neto' covers it. I had gotten town reads from Neto's frustrations with Ellibereth, and secondly I thought that the counterlynch of Netlava was driven by an effort to save Zach, not Neto.

I was the original one to push the Zach wagon, when Neto wasn't under consideration, I wasn't pushing the counterwagon.

[Bogre]

@Elli

I'm vanilla.

[Bogre]

What question? The more-or-less rhetorical question that anyone could guess the answer to? Fine. If Neto isn't a hider, then he's either a lying townie or lying scum, the latter possibility being more likely.

Why would a townie lie?

[Bogre]

Mmk, since I'm currently leading, I feel you all should know why lynching Kerrrigan is a better choice than I, and that involves:

1. Pushing the Netlava wagon and supporting the Zach wagon when it looked worthwhile (to free Neto).
2. Dancing around the point of Haylen, making several self-contradictory responses.
3. Being 'unsure' of the hider claim - voicing suspicion, yet not taking a firm stance.

Just because Kerrigan is posting doesn't suggest he is town and I am scum- he has more to gain from drowning the town in posts and staying alive today than I do. I admit, based on voting records and support of wagons, he and I are in the same boat, and so killing the both of us, as Glork said, will allow us to most likely get 1 scum in the mix. Losing a vanilla isn't that much a price to pay (though of course, lynching him first and not losing me would be better. )

If you'd like to explain why you'd want me dead over him, I'd like to answer.

[Bogre]

Told ya Zach was scum.