Mafia 108 - Mafia With The Quickness - over!

[Glork]

In other news, a cursory re-read of the first eight pages says:
There is a very tangible Neto/Gayle connection, as Elli noted.
Annachie looks bad.
Haylen's in the process of posting and slept through the meat of the discussion, so she gets a free pass for now.
Mae deserves more heat (and, consequently, needs to post more substantial content).
Camn may be paired with Neto and/or Gayle. Weak connection, but certainly tangible.



camn: In Post 171, you push Neto for accusing kmd of "flailing," then in Post 187, you make a very loud vote for Elli after his spat with Neto. In 207, you state that you don't think the argument is "scum/scum." I've taken that to mean that you think at most one of {Neto/Elli} is scum. Then in your most recent post, 234, you ask critical questions of both players.
I've spent the last few minutes trying to work out what's going on inside that head of yours, and I just can't. Which (if either) of these two players do you think has a reasonable chance at being scum? If both, are the scum together? Which of the two is more likely to be scum?


I feel like a bunch of people have an above-average chance of being scum, but no one or two people stand out right now. There's probably a lurkerscum, and then a couple of semi-to-normally-active scums about right now.

[Zachrulez]

Doing this again with fixed quote tags. I need to use preview more...

Regarding Neto: Your only reason for voting him is for his avoiding bandwagons. How exactly is that scummy?

Didn't his very first post actually discourage bandwagoning in general? That's how I interpretted it. Maybe we have different feelings about how to take that, but I don't really like it at all.

Regarding Mae: Again, only reason for suspicion is you got the "same bad vibe" that Netlava did, going on to explain that Mae's post (I can't remember which now, but it's beside the point) is laden with "sarcasm, possibly even gloating." That's just not a good tell.

Those the only two suspicions you've had all game. Whereas I've been a little more rounded out. That's why I feel the lurker argument is more applicable to you than me.

Yeah, I find gloating to be a pretty good tell, scum bragging to town and such. In her case it's not very clear though, but the post doesn't really give me a good feeling.

[Maemuki]

and, consequently, needs to post more substantial content

Mmmm, I see. What do you want me to talk about?

[Glork]

and, consequently, needs to post more substantial content

Mmmm, I see. What do you want me to talk about?

I can provide you with a list of questions to respond to, if you'd like.

[Maemuki]

I can provide you with a list of questions to respond to, if you'd like.

Please.

[Glork]

1) Which player do you think is most likely scum? Why?
2) If that player were killed right now as scum, which player do you think is most likely to be that player's scumbuddy? Why?
3) How do you feel about Elli's play so far?
4) Are you scum?
5) How do you feel about my play so far?
6) How do you feel about kmd's attitude that you are probably protown?
7) Was your response to Question #4 a lie?
8) How do you feel about the fact that, on Page 11, Annachie and Netlava are not voting for anybody?
9) Name two players you would like to see post more suspicions/content.
10) Who did you target last night?



And, for extra credit, take one player from your answer to #9 and convince them to answer the same ten questions I just asked you.



I expect you to hand in your quiz at the end of the period, at which point it will be graded and your course grade will be mailed home to your parents.

[SaintKerrigan]

Didn't his very first post actually discourage bandwagoning in general? That's how I interpretted it. Maybe we have different feelings about how to take that, but I don't really like it at all.

Again, why is this scummy?

Yeah, I find gloating to be a pretty good tell, scum bragging to town and such. In her case it's not very clear though, but the post doesn't really give me a good feeling.

Why would scum brag to town? Wouldn't that just give away their identity?

There's not much I can argue against gut, except to say I think you're wrong.

It would really help to see some more suspects out of you, or better reasons for the ones you have. Preferably, I'd like to see both things.

[Maemuki]

Yeah, I find gloating to be a pretty good tell, scum bragging to town and such. In her case it's not very clear though, but the post doesn't really give me a good feeling.

Please point out the gloating part, please. Gloating for someone...

suspecting me?

I just can't see it.

Glork, I'm just iso'ing some people before I hand in the exam, don't worry.

[Zachrulez]

Didn't his very first post actually discourage bandwagoning in general? That's how I interpretted it. Maybe we have different feelings about how to take that, but I don't really like it at all.

Again, why is this scummy?

Well I tend to see bandwagoning as a good way to start the game/get out of RVS/get out of RQS/get out of whatever is used to start the game.

Discouraging it is something I see as an attempt to stall getting the game moving, which I do find scummy.

Yeah, I find gloating to be a pretty good tell, scum bragging to town and such. In her case it's not very clear though, but the post doesn't really give me a good feeling.

Why would scum brag to town? Wouldn't that just give away their identity?

It would, but it does happen. Andytony does it multiple times in this game. http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10864

[Zachrulez]

I'm getting better. Page 2 and I have 4 pretty solid reads. Neto and Mae as scum. Haylen and Saint as town.

*claps slowly* Way to go - Saint is voting your town read and Haylen is voting with you. Bravo, bravo.

Possible gloating is in the way you hit KMD for his failure to keep SK from voting one of his town reads.

[Maemuki]

Possible gloating is in the way you hit KMD for his failure to keep SK from voting one of his town reads.

Ahm, no. It's closely related to that, but it isn't that. If KMD thinks that Haylen is town, and SK was voting for Haylen, I couldn't see how he thought that they were both town. It confused me, therefore I replied on that sarcastic way. Understood?

[SaintKerrigan]

Possible gloating is in the way you hit KMD for his failure to keep SK from voting one of his town reads.

Ahm, no. It's closely related to that, but it isn't that. If KMD thinks that Haylen is town, and SK was voting for Haylen, I couldn't see how he thought that they were both town. It confused me, therefore I replied on that sarcastic way. Understood?

What are you talking about? I only voted for Haylen once, and that was a joke vote.

[Zachrulez]

Possible gloating is in the way you hit KMD for his failure to keep SK from voting one of his town reads.

Ahm, no. It's closely related to that, but it isn't that. If KMD thinks that Haylen is town, and SK was voting for Haylen, I couldn't see how he thought that they were both town. It confused me, therefore I replied on that sarcastic way. Understood?

Eh? Must one of them be scum if they are voting for each other? I'm not sure what's confusing about that.

[Maemuki]

Eh? Must one of them be scum if they are voting for each other? I'm not sure what's confusing about that.

Ok, maybe I didn't word that well. Why wouldn't KMD protect his town read, assuming his strongest read was Haylen's?

Also might have been sarcasm on the fact that he suspected me thrown into that mix, I don't know.

[SaintKerrigan]

Mae, respond to my previous post, please.

[Maemuki]

What are you talking about? I only voted for Haylen once, and that was a joke vote.

Ohhh, is that so? Sorry then. Guess I was just a bit bitter for being suspected.

[SaintKerrigan]

All right, I'm leaving now for lunch with my dad, then I have two meetings + chess practice, so I likely won't be back for at least 6 1/2 hours. Just so there's no confusion of this with lurking.

[Kmd4390]

Neto, I don't see a problem with Saint's Netlava vote.

Camn's first post, exactly what I'd expect until the "only wearing my underwear" part.

Post 160, Ann looks like a possible Neto-buddy.

Neto, while I never respond well to pressure, I don't think there is a time in this game where I was ever "flailing".

Netlava, Post 170, it would be nice to hear your thoughts on some other players, not just Mae.

Neto, 172, so attacking you is poor play, but unvoting and turning my attention elsewhere is an improvement? Riiiiiiight.

Netlava, 185, do you find Haylen and Gayle scummy for joke posting? Why aren't you voting anyone (at the time. haven't finished reading, so maybe a vote comes later)? Ann, same question.

212, by Neto. I don't like it. At all.

Two questions for KMD: Going back to your early "four solid reads on Page 2" thing, I'm once again curious about your flip-flop on Mae. Your initial post was on Post 36. You had changed your mind regarding Mae by Post 60.

1) What caused that initial, misguided scum interpretation?
2) What caused you to change your mind about Mae?

1) The apology looked like she felt like she was expected to be here, which seems nervous. Nervousness is one of the things I look for at the beginning of a game. I caught a scum in confirmations that way, but the game is ongoing, so I won't be able to link it for maybe a week.
2) Her explanation made sense. If she is a known lurker, and was even asked about it by the Mod, it explains why she'd want to be here right at the start of the game and why she'd apologize for being a little slow to the thread and having to catch up a little. So the nervousness that I picked up wasn't "OMG hope they don't find out I got a scum PM", it was "Shit, now I might look like a lurker again".

Zach, 249, I gloat as town.

Glork, 255, I lol'd.

Mae, 260, town aren't always right. I don't expect Saint to vote scum every time if he's town. To 263, I don't "protect" anyone until I feel they are close to a lynch, and even then, it had better be a damn strong town read.

Unvote, Vote Netopalis

And since I wasn't here for the discussion, I live in Upstate New York where it is always cold and snowing and I'm just wearing my pants right now.

[Zachrulez]

Zach, 249, I gloat as town.

Yeah, I don't blindly vote it anymore. (Had experience with town gloaters that I didn't have before recently.)

There are specific things I look for now that are more definitive. (The linked game should help with exactly what those things are.)

[Glork]

Glork, 255, I lol'd.

IDK why you'd lol. I expect those questions to be answered, and I'm not moving off of Mae until they are.

[Kmd4390]

Zach, I don't have the time to read games I'm not in.

Glork, parts of it made me laugh. Like the grades mailed to your parents comment.

[Maemuki]

3) Useless. PBPA's are quite sucky, and I've only used them once. As scum. See the connection? Slight suspicion, but not enough for a vote.
4) Thankfully no. I suck as scum.
5) Quite good, actually. You have been active, participated in the discussion, and scumhunted. Guess what's my opinion of you, really.
6) Well, I explained it. So why should I feel weirded out?
7) It wasn't.
8) It's not like I'm voting as well, so I can't really say. Maybe they're just confused. It's only a scumtell if they already look quite scummy, in my opinion.
9) It would be Bogre and Haylen, but Haylen is already making a post, so it's Bogre and Gayle. Maybe Elli as well.
10) Wait, was there a Night 0 and I didn't notice? Good to know.

I'll answer 1, 2 and explain the others better when I'm back, about an hour from now. Bye!

[Kmd4390]

10) Wait, was there a Night 0 and I didn't notice? Good to know.

Yeah, I'm even more convinced Mae is town now.

[Netopalis]

My computer is experiencing total suckage right now, so I can't quite respond to the Gayle and Haylen points as well as I would like. I'm thinking that the reason that I've been looking at others rather than them is because I've been looking at players for their post count/content ratio, and it doesn't look like they've been around much to post. Could be an error, though.

Zach: I said that if anyone bandwagoned Mae from my random vote, I would unvote because I dislike the RVS. You and KMD read all that extra crap in there. I am a very cautious player who dislikes early bandwagons as well, but that's not what I said.

KMD: The switch I was referring to wasn't your unvote, it was your opening up to new suspicions. For a time, you were tunneling, but with a few later posts, you throw out a few extra suspicions. I don't mind if you suspect me, but I do mind if you aren't doing decent scumhunting all around.

I can't respond to anything else right now because I don't know that my computer will load another page. For whatever reason, it keeps halfway-loading most sites I'm going to. Very frustrating. At any rate, here's a post for now...

[Haylen]

Netlava could do with some more content, but he's finally managed to point out something that I like: Haylen's lack of content posts. Sure, I can appreciate jokes as well as anyone, but we've gotten into the serious stage of the game. Comments on issues at hand are highly appreciated--and highly lacking from Haylen atm. Haylen, would you mind posting more content? Because I'm tempted to move my vote off of Netlava and onto you.

Hehe, you will notice that recently, I always start games with joking more than I do post content. It's neither a towntell or a scumtell, it's a Haylentell. I find I enjoy games more this way cause I lighten up and stop being so uptight during games. (It's obviously an entirely different matter when I'm ICing.) Anyone got a problem with that?

PBPA Part One

Annachie

Post 0: Makes a point with saying that KMD may be trying to justify something that he already knows. But why would KMD bring something like that up so early in the game? In my experience scum just shut up and keep quiet, trying to blend in early in games, that post obviously made him stand out, so her FOS doesnt really make much sense.

Post 1: Says that since we are past the RVS stage, voting needs reasons, but she goes on to say she is suspicious of KMD yet doesn't give any good reasons. Which is kind of hypocritical when you think about it, because a FoS is just a step below a vote.

Post 2. Says that voting without reason and voting without giving reason are different things. In my opinion, both deserve a bandwagon, cause that's how I think and play. It is difficult to differentiate between a vote without reason and a vote without giving reason during games, but it is obvious that both can be seen as anti town. Voting without reason could be a scumtell or inattentive/bored town, and voting without giving reason is with holding information from the town. The best way to solve these problems are to bandwagon.

Post 5. I disagree with her when she says that Neto has only posted fluff and waffle, if that were so then people wouldn't be bandwagoning him right now. I'd say his posts have included quite a bit of content, but I consider what is in that content to be scummy.

However, I think the rest of her post is good evaluation and analysis.

Post 7. Says that whilst metaing Neto, she came across a game in which Neto interacted with somebody in a way which was similar to here and that he was scum which she says is a tell. But, she wasn't voting for Neto at this point, why not? If you think a person has committed a scumtell, then you vote them for it regardless of where you got the information from. (I know a lot of people hate meta)

I find it scummy that she is not voting for somebody who she has said has committed a scumtell at this point.

But then, in post 8 she says that Elli and Neto are more likely to be town against town which is a big leap from her post before and actually makes no sense. Why are they both town, Annachie?

I think in post 9 she is strawmanning when she says that Neto's post about theory gave the scum something to hide behind, since this isn't true. If scum are forced to post something about theory, it is a lot harder for them to hide behind it. They could easily be voted for hypocrisy later on in the game. Oh course, this isn't true with the RQS if scum are the ones asking the questions.

Post 10: Not wanting to be pinned down to something is a scumtell, as it allows scum to change their minds about things quickly and without much difficultly. It is scummy for the same reasons that showing indecisiveness is.

SaintKerrigan

Post 4: I think he is asking Neto the wrong question when he asks why he is voting when he hates random voting. I think the answer he should be asking is whether he has any extra information on Mae since that would be the only reason he is voting her if he doesn't like random voting.

Post 7: Votes Netlava for a valid reason and explains why in detail. It shows analysis which is good at this stage in the game as it gives us town something to go with.

Post 10: You can see the bit at the start of this post for my response to that. I agree that a lot of time has gone into arguing over theory, however, I wouldn't say all of it has since we have questioned players such as Neto and Anna, and the interaction between Neto and Elli.

I am currently getting a town read of of SaintKerrigan for the time being due to his logical votes and his votes can be backed up with what he says and based on how I've seen him play as scum. My read on him may change over time because I have never seen him play as scum or town from Day One.

Netopolis

Post 1. Votes for Maemuki, but doesn't explain why we shouldn't bother bandwagoning her. I have already posted why I am suspicious of this earlier in the game and my opinion on it hasn't changed. Hence why I am still voting for him.

Post 2. Digs himself into an even deeper whole by saying that he doesn't like random voting. This is hypocritical since he voted Maemuki in his first post without reasoning, in the random voting stage and adds to the reason as to why I think he is scummy.

His 5th post gives me bad vibes, the agressiveness I get from it is not in proportion to the post he is responding to, and it also doesn't really make much sense as a response. I think Neto is beginning to crack under pressure here.

Post 8: Disagrees with Glork that we should lynch Bogre. I don't like this post because he doesn't explain why we shouldn't lynch Bogre, he doesn't give his opinions on him or explain why he thinks that he may be town. That're presuming that he does think he is town of course, he didn't exactly say in his post. On the other hand, he could just not want Bogre lynched because he's his scumbuddy.

Post 15. I don't like him attacking over the 'I know I'm town, thus you should believe me'. I have noticed that some newbies, when they first start playing the game suffer from a little bit of egocentricism where they think everybody in the game knows what they do. They get over it eventually, But I don't care who it is you're attacking over it because there are valid psychological reasons. It has nothing to do with the player being scum, I actually see it more of a town tell.

Post 16. Says that his vote on Maemuki was something to do with theory, but then does not elaborate on what the theory was. Plus, how could you have a theory that soon in the game.

Post 31. He votes Elli for...bad playstyle? Policy lynching will not get you very far in a quick game or any game actually. It's a poor reason to vote for anybody. Stop being so newbist. He then confirms in post 35 that he is voting for Elli based only on his playstyle. He says that Elli is being outright scummy, but then says that he appears to do that whether town or scum. So his vote is baseless.

Post 39: It is scummy to get people to meta you and point them in the direction of specific games, because it shows you are aware of your meta and that there is a strong possibility that you are playing up to it.

Post 42: I would first like to say that camn is female. Secondly, I disagree with your point of Elli, I don't think he came into the game with the intention of attacking you specifically. He may have came into the game and saw everyone else was attacking you and joined in though. For example, Mae knows where my flaws are in my play due to previous games but you don't see her attacking me for it. Using the same theory as you are with Elli, wouldn't that make Maemuki town?

Post 45:

Given a field of players that would be equally good lynch targets, it is logical to lynch the one that will hurt us the least if the lynch is wrong.

I don't like this, it is like he want's us to lynch a townie today. I think it is better play to lynch scum, rather than the player that will hurt us least if lynched.

This is why I think Neto is scum

camn

Post 0: What was with the Random FoS on Kmd?

Post 1: I agree with her evaluation on what Neto says about Kmd. I don't see him flailing anywhere.

Post 3: Votes for Elli without giving a reason, I don't like this because in my opinion you need to have a reason for voting for players when we are out of the random voting stage.

She doesn't really post much until her 6th post when she gives a reply to Neto which I agree with...except for the me having to be scum with Neto.

All in all camn needs to post more before I can get a proper read on her.

Btw, camn, who's play are you imitating this game?

Netlava

Post 0: Says that mine and Neto's posts make him feel that Maemuki is scummy and then votes for her. I have the feeling that if she is lynched and flips town then Netlava will tell everyone that the only reason he voted her is because me and Neto made him want to with our posts. Considering that mine and Neto's posts were completely different and held different opinions on the matter, I think he randomly put my name there so he could focus his blame on me later in the game. Also, considering that Mae hadn't even posted in the game when me and Neto made our posts, I think his vote is completely baseless and I wouldn't be surprised is Neto and Netlava were a scumteam.

Post 1: Of course he;s getting a better vibe of Mae now, she made a post. This shows that he formed his opinion based on nothing but mine and Neto's posts rather than on Mae, herself. He also seems to be copying Kmd by voting for the same reasons that he did, and then unvoting when he did too.

He does seem to be tunnelling Maemuki a little bit by only analysing her and not anyone else, in the few posts that he's actually made. He admits this in post 4, but then says that he is undecided about her despite tunnelling her. This is hypocritical.

In post 5, he just says that me and Gayle have been joke posting. I did post a little bit of content at the beginning of the game so his analysis here is completely false.

In conclusion, I find Netlava very scummy.

Bogre

In his post titled Number 1, he does try to get Neto to comment on things other than the the RVS and RQS which is good because it shows he is trying to help move the game along.

Confirms Maemuki's meta in his third post when he says that Mae has said the same thing in every game that he's played in with her. This is good, because it shows that he doesn't wants somebody lynched for something that they usually do when there is a likely hood that they might be town.

I don't like his 5th post in which he votes Zach for asking why a dice roll was used to make a vote. It looks like he is just trying to find somewhere new to place his vote without looking into who may be scum.

I think Bogre may actually be town here, if he isn't then he is paired with Neto. I do think that he needs to post much more content though and elaborate more on things and try to scumhunt properly.

Gayle

Post 0: In his first post, he votes in order to try and get a bandwagon. This isn't good. Why do you want a bandwagon at this stage in the game? It is likely that the scum will quicklynch.

Post 2: Changes his vote in order to OMGUS Elli. Don't OMGUS people, if you're a townie it is a complete waste of time and a complete waste of a vote which is why I consider it an anti-town move.

Post 3, changes his mind that it was an OMGUS and says that it was because Elli is misleading in his summarys and votes first/gives reasons later. I don;t like this because it looks as though he is backtracking.

Gayle is another player than needs to post more, and stop posting fluff. I think he is more anti-town than scummy.

Glork

Post 0: Does the same thing as Gayle and decides he wants to bandwagon Bogre. This isn't good. Why do you want a bandwagon at this stage in the game? It is likely that the scum will quicklynch.

His rant in post 1 is pro-town because her makes it clear to Neto that what he is currently doing is preventing the town from scumhunting properly. I also agree with him that the random stage is an ice breaker, unless scum decide to make it more sinister.

But then he makes a judgement without elaborating on it when he says we should lynch Bogre.

He then does not explain why he is voting Neto, but I do agree with him when he comments on Kmd's solid reads changing and that it may place doubt on the solidity of his other reads.

I also agree with his 14th post regarding Netlava. If a player is more than 50% sure someone is scum on day one of a game, then they should be pushing for their lynch, because it is not often that a scum is lynched day one in a game. This is one of the reasons I am getting a town read from Glork.

Post 25: Please don't insult BM in front of me. It'll make me change my mind and want to policy lynch you.

I agree with his post 26 when he says that Neto is presenting double standards by saying he wants to improve day 2 play and then says we should policy lynch on day one.

I am more inclined to believe that Glork is town rather than scum at the moment

Zachrulez

Post 0: Votes Bogre in order to start a bandwagon. Why on ear is everybody so bandwagon hungry? Seriously. Does the same thing as Gayle and Glork and decides he wants to bandwagon Bogre. This isn't good. Why do you want a bandwagon at this stage in the game? It is likely that the scum will quicklynch.

Post 1: I agree with his questioning on why Glork needed a dice to choose a bandwagon, and I don't like that Zach was attacked for it.

Zach really really needs to post more. I am getting absolutely nothing from him other than lack of content and being bandwagon hungry. I think this is antitown and is not how I saw Zach play in Bloodlust, so I think he is more neutral to me at the moment.

Ellibereth

In his 1st post, he says that he doesn't like Neto and does a PBPA explaining why, which I agree with. But he also says that he likes Maemuki and KMD but he does not explain why he thinks they are town. Care to elaborate, Elli?

Post 4: He goes a little bit too far when he says that Neto isn't denying his posts weren't pointless. Maybe Neto actually had a point behind them such as trying to keep the town distracted from scumhunting?

In his 9th post he votes for Gayle without giving any reason, I don't like this especially since we were way out of the RVS stage.

I think that Elli may actually be town who isn't contributing much.

Kmd

Post 0: Starts scumhunting from the word go when he votes for Neto after Neto tells everybody not to bandwagon Maemuki. This is good because it shows that he wants to kind scum.

He continues to vote with his thoughts through the game and makes logical decisions as to who to vote for. I agree with some of his reads as they appear to be accurate to me.

He does have a little wobble when he changes his 'solid read' a few pages later. I do not consider this to be a scumtell or antitowntell because peoples reads will change a lot throughout the game and I am actually surprised that he got attacked for it. I can understand why he got attacked for it though, from the other players point of view.

I get a town read from KMD.