Open 193 - Friends and Enemies: It's over!

[Scien]

/Coniform

[Scien]

/reconfirm.

[Scien]

Vote: VI

Die scum die.

[Scien]

(Yes the double capitalization was intentional)

[Scien]

So... do you always put the L-# on your votes Vi? Seems to take pressure off when you are early on a wagon... like now.

[Scien]

no, it doesn't.

Er? You mean telling someone, 'hey I just voted you but it will take 6 more before any harm comes from it'

doesn't

take pressure off? I understand the pressure it would add if you were placing a l-3, l-2, or l-1... but you are saying that adding l-6 doesn't relieve pressure?

I find it dubious that you apparently consider PorkchopExpress a wagon when you put the third vote on me.

Psh. I am definitely on a wagon, I intentionally added to it. I am coming to like the early game pressure on someone.

But as for me saying you were on a wagon, it's no wagon yet, I was just trying to point out that on the first half of a wagon in I would expect this tactic to relieve pressure.

So I guess you want me to modify my point to "it seems to take pressure off if you are early on a wagon or the first vote, like now..." Very well.

---

To troll:
1) My aborted role was vanilla townie.
2) I kinda knew that FandE was 3 each. I mean, when the setup was suggested I went and looked at the wiki, and it did indeed say 3 and 3. But, upon joining the game, I really didn't notice the difference. Partially because I have never played FandE, partially because I forgot what I read on the wiki until you guys started complaining, partially because it didn't matter to me due to my role I would have been on no team and numbers would matter more in later days for someone in those shoes.

[Scien]

Ok... maybe an accusation to get you to talk then?

The reason you add the l-# to the your votes when you are the first vote or part of an early wagon would be that you don't want backlash from the person you are voting, as you don't want to get dragged into discussion. However you do want to vote to avoid suspicion. Adding the very high l-# softens the vote's blow, and makes it less likely to get a hard negative response from the voted party.

[Scien]

Meh... I hadn't gone back to verify the 'Yes I do this all the time' claim. And I have not ever played with Vi I don't think.

Since then I have found examples and they agree with the claim... meh.

So playstyle difference I suppose.

[Scien]

It's pretty easy to check Vi's "meta" of L-x;

Yes it is. And I found it after I started looking. I was just hoping for more of a response from Vi than, 'Scien is not worth responding to'. I went to check after I prompted him for more.

regardless, it looks like Scien it trying to latch on to anything, even when it's not particularly relevant to the game.

Yep. Welcome to the early game. Anything to get to real content instead of more of this joking around stuff.

Scien, tell me what you think of this.

Meh, not too scary if that is the point you are trying to make.

[Scien]

I was checking after I prompted him for more. I finished and came back after you posted. Nice opportunism there though.

I'm around, but also at work. Are you guys really telling me you want immediate actions out of me?

[Scien]

Yet your vote is still on me, indicating that you still think I'm most likely to be scum... or, given the strength of your case, that you're not interested in scumhunting.

Or that we are still pretty much in begin game, and I was stretching to find something to get the game moving. Having failed I am now partially on defense and partially sitting still on you with no other good target in begin game. You think I should be more suspicious of anyone at this point? You are acting like there is a lot of content here. You really think that I would have a secondary case on someone this early?

You are attacking me for not having a case on you... what about VPs vote, what about Ojanens? What is different about my initial vote? Why am I different than other random votes. Just the fact that I alone asked you a question after my vote? One that later was explained satisfactorily.

You really thought that vote was due to a case? Why didn't I post a case with that vote? Only after my

pressure

vote did I ask you about an element of your play. Only after you told me I was not worth replying to did I trump it up to make you reply.

Something is fishy here.

[Scien]

VP Baltar and Ojanen didn't bother to explain their votes. Your vote partially raised my "interest" because deliberate insults tend to do that, and partly because you then decided to push a reason onto your vote that was explained, albeit not satisfactorily.

I didn't explain my vote until post 73. I did however question a play of yours after I voted. I hadn't used it in a case at that point, and I never said my vote was due to the suspicions my question was designed to investigate.

Please show me where I said that the reason I voted you is because you place l-#s on your votes. You won't be able to. In fact, this

entire

discussion started after my vote. It didn't prompt my vote, or even relate to it until you all said that it was a case tied to my vote, which is incorrect.

My vote was no different than theirs other than it was later, and that I asked a question outside it as well.

A similar question could be asked of you. There are now more people voting you than there were voting me. Why is my vote worth more attention?

You are suggesting that I investigate myself since I have more people on me now? I don't need to, I know my role. However I don't know yours.

And you'll notice I didn't reply to your trumped-up accusation. It was essentially the same thing you said earlier, but in a more menacing tone.

That was the idea.

So we're on the same page, your position is:
*I'm not particularly scummy
*You don't know who else could possibly be scummy after two pages
*You think you're being "picked on" by me in particular, and three other people in general

1) No not particularly scummy. But worth looking at at the moment. It would be hard for anyone to be bad enough to be 'particularly scummy' on page 3 of a game that really didn't start until page 2.
2) Nope. 2 pages. I have barely even begun to form my opinions on people... that would be why I was trying to ask and question instead of pushing cases. You have cases on two people here on page 2? Holy crap you are good. You don't have to give the case if you think I am deflecting, but who is number 2?
3) Nah, I wouldn't say you are picking on me. I think you are stretching things a bit. Everyone does in day 1. And its not like I haven't given you an excuse for looking my way. You should be suspicious of people suspicious of you too, given that you have a pro-town role. If you are scum, then it would be good to push suspicion towards people looking at you... so your play in this regard is a null tell to me. Did I say that I thought you were 'picking on me?'

---

So you are suggesting that it took you over an hour to find a couple games where Vi used the L-# in her

I am suggesting I went looking and was pre-occupied. It was lunch time for one. Second I am simultaneously doing work. I checked recent posts on her/his profile, and found a couple of games that (s)he did indeed post l-#'s.

The games, er, I didn't take notes but I could find them again if you wish. I remember one being on the first or second page of recents, and one on the second or third. I remember him being a mod in one thread hat I checked, so I had to move on. After I found the second I stopped looking and took his word for it. Probably went to lunch at that time, then came back and posted. And yes, addressed your concerns at that time.

[Scien]

@VP I say probably because I don't remember if I started a run of something I am testing before or after lunch.

[Scien]

Your vote became different when you pressed me for scum.

Heh. I asked you a question. You said you didn't want to even respond. I pressed. You wanted me to what, just shut up?

What makes my vote so different that you're pressing me exclusively?

The fact that we are talking, and they just pretty much played follow the leader. The only thing that was added to this discussion from the other parties were legitimate little quips that I have addressed. I do not suspect anyone more due to the reasons for the vote switch.

You DO realize I was voting someone for non-random reasons before I switched to you. In addition, I'm curious as to whether SerialClergyman is playing this game, or is posting in the wrong thread.

Ok, fine answer. Nothing came of that initial vote so I didn't know if it was minor game start stuff, or legitimate concerns coming from you.

Does that even matter?

You are the one that brought it up. I was just curious about the reasons why? I didn't recall acting like your attacks were unfair, I don't know of any reasons why you would ask me if I thought so. Were you just testing if I would add something ridiculous to my current concerns?

---

1) What did you have for lunch?
2) If you could have had anything for lunch today, regardless of price, rarity, preparation time, etc., what would it have been?
3) Do you have any food allergies?

I'll play along I guess.
1) Beef and Cheese Enchilada's with beans and corn. From our cafeteria.
2) Regardless of all concerns? My mom's lasagna, stuff is ridiculously good. Probably has been a couple years since I have had any. Plus I am just a simple guy and doesn't care for overly expensive stuff.
3) None that I know of yet. I can't drink a lot of milk without getting cramp like things, but a couple of glasses is just fine.

[Scien]

Dang now I want Lasagna.

FoS Charlatan. >:(

[Scien]

So... do you always put the L-# on your votes Vi? Seems to take pressure off when you are early on a wagon... like now.

So after a question that was pretty much a play style question, my vote's meaning changes? I made no accusations based off it yet. That was all part of the trump up to get you to respond to me.

You think that this question was major enough that it was then the only element of a case that was the only thing responsible for me voting you? Even after I am telling you otherwise?

Take your lady boy obsession elsewhere.

O_o

[Scien]

As stated before, my initial vote was just a pressure vote, I was adding to a wagon.

The question was a play style question. Something I thought was odd, and I wanted to look at a bit. I have never played with Vi, IIRC, and I don't know anything about him. I was/am feeling him out.

I only trumped it up to an accusation after I received 'Scien is not worth replying to' as a reply.

[Scien]

Considering you had just gotten done saying DIE VI-SCUM, one would expect your next post to be in that same tone.

Hah. Fair. I didn't mean it as an accusation in its original context. Even when I tried to sound all mean to get you to talk I didn't really suspect you would use such a tactic. I was trying to illicit a better response outta ya.

[Scien]

First off, let me remind everyone I very rarely have a chance to post during weekends. Now then... as I read back through:

Ok, so we have ABR-Scien scum thus far....third person is slightly more challenging.

Pretty sure of yourself eh? Sure of one scum pairing on page 5... And sure that it is chainsaw defense instead of him buddying me... Dang you are good. Got information that I don't to help you be so good?

Would you have switched just because he had beef and cheese enchiladas?

I would have. Suckas were good. If it was tuna salad sandwiches I wouldn't have however. BTW how long do you intend to keep this stuff up? You don't have anything to really comment on yet?

Scien's opening pressure is for an unimpressive reason but that's not particularly unexpected for him.

Heh, that is the second game in a row you plugged at me in begin game. At least by my memory. I guess I am going to have to come up with some counter for the next game.

The Scien/Vi argument looked boring on the surface. Felt generally a little weary of mafia.

Sorry I don't understand this, and its probably just a language thing. The argument was weary? What do you mean?

[...] I was merely stating that your post was reasonably insulting to Scien?

Reasonably insulting? Dang... everyone hates on the Scien.

1. Townie
2. Yes. There's currently another ongoing Friends and Enemies and I'm in that.

Ok... I need to take this opertunity to ask Vi a question. You are claiming that you have a reason to withhold your role, and that's all well and good. But you are not trying to stop these answers from coming out hmm... you must not be worried about the information getting revealed, and eventually revealing your role by way of exclusion? Intéressant.

Observe Scien calling my lonely vote on PorkchopExpress a wagon. Now consider that Scien put a third vote on me for "DIE VI-SCUM".

I already conceded this as bad wording on my part. Take it for what you will.

I don't believe I've seen ABR so touchy before.

That comment does not speak to something that would be meta exclusive to ABR, nor was it drawn from a specific point in any single game.

Shenanigans. You are claiming that you can take an abstract of how a good player should act and use that as a standard about how you have 'seen player X act in the past'? You most definitely

were

implying meta specific to ABR there.

Evidently Zorblag isn't as memorable as I'd have expected.

QFT. Seems to be a theme. He seemed a shadow in the background most of last game too.

Orc

, Tauren, Troll, Undead, Goblin, Elf, Dragon, Ogre? Please answer!

Bolded. Man you are bored aren't ya. (And completely against my personality, so that oughta make you work)

[To Zorblag] Actually, you've answered your own question here

Hmm. Before I find the time to go back and look, have you played more as scum with Zorblag, or more as town? Why the desire to appear to start the game differently this time?

My ass can be the center point of multi-page discussion for all I care.

'Do you know how I know you are ghey?' (forgive me heh)

I did get a weird vibe from the SC/ABR "wagon" on VP. I'm pretty sure one of them has to be scum; though I'm feeling SC more than ABR.

Wow. That's some balls on the line mafia.

Heh, agree. Amished apparently is another person who is sure of themselves oh so early.

---

Unvote

* Inconsistancies on where the meta came from for his read on ABR. Seems like trying to find a reason for his suspicions that aren't there.
* Looking and suggesting pairings with close to nothing to back it up. Even if you claimed chainsaw defense as evidence or proof, you wouldn't know if you had found friends or enemies, and from what I have seen you have done nothing to determine which you have found if you truly believe in your pairing suggestion.

Vote: VP

Are you trying to do the tried and true 'everyone loves to try and lynch me in day 1' shtick?

[Scien]

Ah. Thanks that makes sense.

[Scien]

In 202 you seem to be implying that people that can get a read on other people in murky waters is *almost* impossible;

Nah. Not reads, just being 'sure'. Getting reads can happen anytime. Being 'sure' someone is scum, or being 'sure' someone is paired with someone in murky waters rings a bit odd to me.

You are not as guilty of it as VP (you hadn't suggested pairs until just recently, and had more comment before your 'sure' comment came out), don't get me wrong, but I would be lying if I tried to claim that I didn't think your confidence sounded odd.

You are stretching my meaning a bit it seems... claiming that I am saying reads in general are impossible. Is this stretch intentional? Maybe, we'll see it.

[Scien]

I suck at English... all around. Reading my own posts in retrospect usually results in me crying a bit on the inside.

At least I think my meaning is clear...

[Scien]

I have not been keeping this stuff up for some time now.

For the record... that was posted in the middle of me catching up. I agree it looks like you are playing more now, and no longer baiting people with 'silliness'. Carry on. Heh.

[Scien]

So, two players I find particularly scummy early in the game are arguing, and I also think the points they are raising against each other are largely weak (which I believe to be a more or less reliable scumtell early in the game). What, specifically, about that is troublesome to you? Is it just that they're arguing that somehow makes it illegitimate? Do you feel that I have no basis to say that I find one or both of them scummy?

I think its pretty natural to be suspicious of someone just throwing out what was basically a, "Hey I am currently voting player A, but I would totally vote player B if it is more convenient." I do get your point that it might be a view that is given by a player with a pro-town role I guess, but I think its pretty understandable for everyone to look at that comment and feel that you are just giving yourself an out for future use. It's not so clear for people not in your shoes to see your motive here.

In fairness, the points I've raised about ABR haven't really changed since you first agreed with me and voted him. There's merely been some elaboration. So, if you think the points are weak (which is apparently scummy), I don't understand why you voted in the first place

Hmm. This is interesting.

Do you think I agreed with every point you've raised the entire game? I agreed with you on one point early in. (The point that I mentioned at the time and also again in my last post.) There are others I do not like. Again, these are available for you to read in my last post.

And the point you are mentioning was good enough to vote over? Everything else is weak right? That's the claim you are making? Just wanna hear you say so or not.

P.S. Yes everyone respects everyone. I get it. Heh.

[Scien]

And Happy Birthday Amished. Unless the Amish don't celebrate it... and if so then sorry for mentioning it.

[Scien]

Sorry catching up. I got a real big surprise at work... and it means that my deadlines have been moved up. Killing my free time in the mean time... hah.

[Scien]

Mod... please replace me

I'm sorry guys... I know this is crappy, but this is also the first time I have had to replace.

My work manditorally moved me to a new position and as a result pushed up all my deadlines... it was completely unforeseeable to me before it happened. Otherwise I would not have started this game.

In the near future I will be very busy with my current project for a week... then have no idea the 'atmosphere' of my new team, and know not whether I will have the opportunity to play as often as I have in the past.

Sorry it took me so long to do this... I thought I would be able to continue this game, but with Friday getting closer, I just don't see myself getting more free time.

Sorry again, and thanks for the understanding.

[Scien]

Heh, haven't had a chance to read it yet, but gratz mafia.