Newbie 869 - Game over

[Deer]

Well, nacho, as of this moment, I'm pretty sure TNM is town, and if you don't want to lynch an un-cc'd doc or cop, then that only leaves you or Finch's replacement for me to lynch, and I'd rather lynch you than Finch's replacement. I wouldn't feel bad lynching jee either, as I'm really not sold on his claim, but I guess my vote will just stay where it is for now unless someone can talk me out of it.

[Nachomamma8]

Well, nacho, as of this moment, I'm pretty sure TNM is town, and if you don't want to lynch an un-cc'd doc or cop, then that only leaves you or Finch's replacement for me to lynch, and I'd rather lynch you than Finch's replacement. I wouldn't feel bad lynching jee either, as I'm really not sold on his claim, but I guess my vote will just stay where it is for now unless someone can talk me out of it.

You understand why we don't lynch an un cc'd cop, but you don't understand why we don't lynch an un cc'd doctor?

Anyways, let's hear your case on me.

[totallynotmafia]

I'm just worried about lynching Nachomamma, him flipping town and then we're in the exact same position tomorrow. It's a gamble with jee, but if he is doctor then that should at least help point us in the direction of who is really scum. I dunno, maybe it's a really bad move but nobody else has done anything really scummy. Like you said Deer, someone is going to have to convince me of someone elses scumminess in order for me to change my vote.

[jee]

Well, nacho, as of this moment, I'm pretty sure TNM is town, and if you don't want to lynch an un-cc'd doc or cop, then that only leaves you or Finch's replacement for me to lynch, and I'd rather lynch you than Finch's replacement. I wouldn't feel bad lynching jee either, as I'm really not sold on his claim, but I guess my vote will just stay where it is for now unless someone can talk me out of it.

tnm is definately town. Think about it... If tnm is mafia, then sensfan would get a scum on him. If sensfan is mafia and lying, then tnm is definately town because there is only 1 mafia left. If anyone else is mafia, sens's read would still be correct with town.

How could you 'not feel bad' lynching an uncc'd doc?

[totallynotmafia]

Yeah, and the fact that I'm cleared as town shows that the cop's role is pretty important too.

@Nachomamma: Aside from SensFan, who do you see as potential scum?

@jee: Is this your first game as doctor? What do you think the best strategy for the doctor is (and not just the strategy for night, strategy throughout the day as well)?

@Deer: Do you think Ellie played well or poorly as scum?

@SensFan: Still my question from before.

[Deer]

How could you 'not feel bad' lynching an uncc'd doc?

I don't really believe you - I think there's a good possibility we don't have a doctor, and therefore, you are uncc'd. You've been pretty scummy this whole game and just because you claim doctor in a game where we don't even know we have one doesn't take my suspicion off you. As for sens, I don't feel bad because I pretty much trust his claim - he CC'd a scum that claimed cop, and unless it is a ridiculously huge bus, he is probably the cop.

And TNM, I think Elli did okay as scum - I didn't really like the overall vibe I got from him starting from D1 and that "bandwagon" thing. But, he made some good moves (claiming cop, quality arguments and posts) that I think could have worked out for him if we trusted him and not Sens.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Official Vote Count

SensFan - 2 (Nachomamma8, jee)

jee - 1 (totallynotmafia)
Nachomamma8 - 1 (Deer)

Not Voting - 2 (Mr Finch, SensFan)

4 to Lynch.

Deadline

is the end of Friday, January 15.

[Nachomamma8]

@Nachomamma: Aside from SensFan, who do you see as potential scum?

Finch or Deer... Unsure how I feel on Finch.

VRK, where's Finch's replacement?

I don't know Nacho. When someone volunteers to replace then we'll both find out.

[jee]

@jee: Is this your first game as doctor? What do you think the best strategy for the doctor is (and not just the strategy for night, strategy throughout the day as well)?

Yes, my first game as doctor, as well as first game on mafiascum as town in general.

For the day, stay out of trouble. Don't lurk though. For night, its up to the doctor. I think protecting the most innocent is a good idea, because its the person the mafia most want to get rid of. If there is a cop, its common to protect him. Which is why I chose to protect someone else. Thinking mafia wouldn't expect it. And seeing as you thought that idea was 'stupid', you didn't expect it either.

How could you 'not feel bad' lynching an uncc'd doc?

I don't really believe you - I think there's a good possibility we don't have a doctor, and therefore, you are uncc'd. You've been pretty scummy this whole game and just because you claim doctor in a game where we don't even know we have one doesn't take my suspicion off you. As for sens, I don't feel bad because I pretty much trust his claim - he CC'd a scum that claimed cop, and unless it is a ridiculously huge bus, he is probably the cop.

You don't believe me, so now you're fine with getting rid of me... without really hearing anything from me after my claim.


I'm fine as of now with a lynch against Mr.Finch or Deer. If everyone is telling the truth, they're the top two without any confirmations. Right now I am leaning more toward Mr.Finch because if its true that the mafia didn't do any night roles, Mr.Finch did kind of disappear day 3. Deer also hammered Elli. I also have a case against Mr.Finch that was enough to convince me of him being scum.

[jee]

And seeing as SensFan won't be lynched tonight,

Unvote
Vote Mr.Finch

[Deer]

How could you 'not feel bad' lynching an uncc'd doc?

I don't really believe you - I think there's a good possibility we don't have a doctor, and therefore, you are uncc'd. You've been pretty scummy this whole game and just because you claim doctor in a game where we don't even know we have one doesn't take my suspicion off you. As for sens, I don't feel bad because I pretty much trust his claim - he CC'd a scum that claimed cop, and unless it is a ridiculously huge bus, he is probably the cop.

You don't believe me, so now you're fine with getting rid of me... without really hearing anything from me after my claim.

I'm fine with getting rid of you (although I'd prefer nacho) because you've been scummier throughout the game - what you say after the claim doesn't make up for past actions. Just because you are uncc'd does not make your claim true.

[jee]

doesn't mean its false either. why do you want to get rid of nacho?

[totallynotmafia]

Ok, thanks for your answers guys.

Now, here's why I think we should lynch jee:

Before I start though, I would like to make two things clear:

Firstly, I am fully aware that I am proposing the lynch of a possible doc. In fact, for me it's about 50/50 as to whether jee is telling the truth or not and this a is a bit of a gamble. However, I believe that if we lynch jee and he turns out to be doc it wont be that bad of a situation and may actually prove to be helpful. Anyway, I'll get to that later, just please hear me out.

Secondly, this is all assuming that SensFan is telling the truth. Like I said before, SensFan has defended his actions a few times now based on the fact that he's IC, so if he was scum I really don't think that he's allowed to do this. If I'm wrong about this then the biggest thing I will have learnt from this game is not to trust the IC.

Ok now on with the case:

1) This is going to be based on fact. What are the only true facts we know in this game? The allignments of those that are dead, and the one that tells us the most I think is Ellie. I've read back over this game a couple of times now, and from reading other games, the relationship between Ellie and jee seems to indicate the most scumminess. There's just the right amount of distancing, but as I've seen in so many other games, it's always shallow accusations on the other person, with each never leaving their suspicion on the other for too long or pointing out actual scum-tells in the other person. Between Ellie and jee it all just seems like insurance in order to cover their arses if the other one gets lynched.

Then of course, as I've seen scum-buddies do in many other games, there's the move to protect. Ellie did this on day 2 just after I had joined. Right after I changed my vote from Deer to jee, Ellie attacked me for all the things RPG did, knowing fully well I couldn't properly defend them. Now jee was a suspicion of Ellie's all along, why not take the easier, more consistent route and agree with me in voting for jee? This is one thing that stuck in my mind ever since it happened and has made me sure that jee is scum. It's why I thought Ellie's cop claim might be true, because he cleared jee as innocent and so I thought this was a way of defending someone he thought was town. As soon as Ellie was confirmed Scum in my mind it went straight back from a move to protect an innocent into a move to protect fellow scum.

The act of clearing jee in Ellie's cop claim is a bold move if jee is scum, but this was prior to SF's claim, and with the goon-goon setup there was the chance of there being a doc instead of the cop, and so they might have been able to get away with it. Now, speaking of the doc...

2) The doctor claim could have easily been planned. With the goon-goon setup jee would have known that after SF claimed, there is no doc, and so a cop claim is relatively safe and a good move because there was a lot of suspicion on himself. Yesterday I read jee's other game on this site, where he was mafia, and in that game he also made a doc claim, which he said afterwards was planned from the night before. So I think jee decided not to kill anoyone last night in order to solidify his cop claim (which he planned to reveal before L-1 to make it seem more genuine- but surely a true doc would avoid having to claim until L-1 so that he isn't revealed, and thus helping the town). This also explains the lack of the roleblock on SF, because there is no roleblocker.

At first after reading back through the thread I thought that his claim may be true, as it seems he was dropping hints that he knew what happened last night because he was doctor, but of course this could have all been planned as well. I also even thought that a lot of his scummy behavior day 1 may have been because he was doc, and he was putting random votes and pressure on people in order to try and find who best to protect. That's why I asked that question, expecting that if jee was actually the doc to get an answer explaining some of the aforementioned scummy behaviour. Instead, this was the answer:

For the day, stay out of trouble. Don't lurk though. For night, its up to the doctor. I think protecting the most innocent is a good idea, because its the person the mafia most want to get rid of. If there is a cop, its common to protect him. Which is why I chose to protect someone else. Thinking mafia wouldn't expect it. And seeing as you thought that idea was 'stupid', you didn't expect it either.

I'm pretty sure this is the generic strategy for the doctor, and it doesn't match his day 1 actions at all.

3) I could be totally wrong about both 1) and 2). However, I haven't seen a decent case on anyone else being scum. Now, let's say we lynch Nacho, and he flips town. I'm almost 100% sure that the scum will leave me and jee alive so that I can go after him again tomorrow. And we'll be in this exact same position, with someone we think has acted really scummy but may be a possible doc, but there's no way to know for sure. If we lynch jee and he does flip doc, I think this actually benefits the town as it helps us get the suspicion off of him and onto the people who have been under the radar. I really think the lynch of jee will benefit the town either way.

I will also be posting cases on everybody with the assumption jee is doc before the deadline because I think I'll probably be the one to get NKed if jee is doc.

Also, one other tidbit. When I was reading jee's other game on this site, he accused someone of fencesitting, and he spelt it right: fencesitting. In this game, when he accused someone, he spelt it fensesitting, a few times. I don't know if there is anything to this, perhaps jee was trying to dumb himself down in order to not appear as a threat, it's just something interesting I came across that I found funny.

[Nachomamma8]

TNM, I see a few glaring issues:

However, I believe that if we lynch jee and he turns out to be doc it wont be that bad of a situation and may actually prove to be helpful.

The doctor has the ability to give us another day. Please explain how lynching him is helpful.

Secondly, this is all assuming that SensFan is telling the truth. Like I said before, SensFan has defended his actions a few times now based on the fact that he's IC, so if he was scum I really don't think that he's allowed to do this. If I'm wrong about this then the biggest thing I will have learnt from this game is not to trust the IC.

Read the article "Being a good IC". The first thing on the list states not to be "rude, unhelpful, and/or inattentive". SensFan has not been attentive. The third thing on the list states, extremely clearly: "Don't lurk". Sens has been lurking almost this entire game. This game is obviously not his best as an IC; using IC status to defend yourself is wrong and unethical because it gives you an unfair advantage. If this is the only thing stopping you from seeing SensFan as suspicious, then I seriously suggest you take a look at him again.

1) Try reading Elli's behavior towards SensFan again. Elli, who I have played in a few games with, is aggressive, whether town or scum. He would not allow an attack with a single scumtell to pass unless it was bussing. He would refute the case with everything he had.

2) That would be the stupidest scum move in the world. If there was no roleblocker and SensFan claimed cop, then why in God's name would you leave someone who can end the game for you alive? Why not kill the cop, and then say you protected someone?

[quote="totallynotmafia"
However, I haven't seen a decent case on anyone else being scum.
[/quote]
What about my case on SensFan?

[quote="totallynotmafia"
Also, one other tidbit. When I was reading jee's other game on this site, he accused someone of fencesitting, and he spelt it right: fencesitting. In this game, when he accused someone, he spelt it fensesitting, a few times. I don't know if there is anything to this, perhaps jee was trying to dumb himself down in order to not appear as a threat, it's just something interesting I came across that I found funny.
[/quote]
His meta in THAT game is inconsistent with his meta in this one. In his old game, he played extremely careful (i.e. checking the Wiki to make cases on other people). Now, he seems to play by instinct which is what most new town do.

[totallynotmafia]

The doctor has the ability to give us another day. Please explain how lynching him is helpful.

Well if jee is really the doc then he is either going to be shot or roleblocked anyway. I'm saying that if we mislynch somebody else we will be in the exact same postion tomorrow. If we mislynch jee and he is doc, then we remove all the scum suspicion that many of us have on him and can get on with the scum-hunt on the remaining players. I'm looking at the overall picture here.

Read the article "Being a good IC". The first thing on the list states not to be "rude, unhelpful, and/or inattentive". SensFan has not been attentive. The third thing on the list states, extremely clearly: "Don't lurk". Sens has been lurking almost this entire game. This game is obviously not his best as an IC; using IC status to defend yourself is wrong and unethical because it gives you an unfair advantage. If this is the only thing stopping you from seeing SensFan as suspicious, then I seriously suggest you take a look at him again.

If I and him are still alive tomorrow I'm willing to put suspicion back on SF, but for the moment I'm not willing to vote for someone I think is cop (who I picked up on what I thought were cop hints from btw) based on a massive bus, regardless of whether he is IC or not. I admit I thought the exact same thing as you, but it's too much of a long shot to justify lynching SF now.

1) Try reading Elli's behavior towards SensFan again. Elli, who I have played in a few games with, is aggressive, whether town or scum. He would not allow an attack with a single scumtell to pass unless it was bussing. He would refute the case with everything he had.

Why wouldn't Ellie want to bus right on back? That would seem to be the smartest move if being bussed by your fellow scum, what advantage is there in not being aggressive in that case? It seems like scum would be more likely to hold off making it into an issue if it was town accusing them.

2) That would be the stupidest scum move in the world. If there was no roleblocker and SensFan claimed cop, then why in God's name would you leave someone who can end the game for you alive? Why not kill the cop, and then say you protected someone?

Desperate times call for desperate measures.

What about my case on SensFan?

I'll re-read it, but I'm pretty sure I've already made myself clear on where I stand with regards to SF.

His meta in THAT game is inconsistent with his meta in this one. In his old game, he played extremely careful (i.e. checking the Wiki to make cases on other people). Now, he seems to play by instinct which is what most new town do.

Well I would expect him to play differently in this game from that one as scum too, seeing as he was lynched day 2 in that one. Perhaps time for a new strategy?

[Nachomamma8]

Well if jee is really the doc then he is either going to be shot or roleblocked anyway. I'm saying that if we mislynch somebody else we will be in the exact same postion tomorrow. If we mislynch jee and he is doc, then we remove all the scum suspicion that many of us have on him and can get on with the scum-hunt on the remaining players. I'm looking at the overall picture here.

If he's shot, scum takes care of our suspicions for us.

If he's roleblocked, Sens won't be.

Why wouldn't Ellie want to bus right on back? That would seem to be the smartest move if being bussed by your fellow scum, what advantage is there in not being aggressive in that case? It seems like scum would be more likely to hold off making it into an issue if it was town accusing them.

You don't bus back so you don't compromise your buddy's case.

Desperate times call for desperate measures.

Explain.

Well I would expect him to play differently in this game from that one as scum too, seeing as he was lynched day 2 in that one. Perhaps time for a new strategy?

Scumteam won that game. Surviving until the end of the game is not a win condition for scum.

[totallynotmafia]

okay, to be totally clear I'm going to sum it up in three concise points:

1) I am voting for jee because imho he has acted the scummiest and has the biggest connection with the other scum, Ellie.

2) If jee flips doc then all that suspicion that many of us had on him is wiped clear. We are then free to look with fresh eyes at people such as Deer and Mr Finch (or his replacement) who have perhaps been flying under the radar, and nacho whos predecessors made like 4 posts between them, and it will make a stronger case for SensFan.

3) I am not voting for Sens today.

[totallynotmafia]

Well if jee is really the doc then he is either going to be shot or roleblocked anyway. I'm saying that if we mislynch somebody else we will be in the exact same postion tomorrow. If we mislynch jee and he is doc, then we remove all the scum suspicion that many of us have on him and can get on with the scum-hunt on the remaining players. I'm looking at the overall picture here.

If he's shot, scum takes care of our suspicions for us.

If he's roleblocked, Sens won't be.

Yeah, but Sens will be shot.

Okay, let's say for argument's sake Deer is scum. He will be having a field day right now knowing that if he leaves me and jee together after tonight I will go after jee, and if he leaves you and Sens together you will go after Sens. I am trying to save us from being in a crappy position in LyLo, the only way we can find out for sure if these claims are true or not is to lynch them now, and I am not lynching SensFan. Hence, jee has to go, if not for his scummy behaviour throughout the game, then for the benefit of the town in LyLo.

[Nachomamma8]

Why aren't you lynching SensFan?

[totallynotmafia]

Because I believe SensFan's claim over jee's, and the only situation which will lead me to believe otherwise is when jee is dead and VRK tells he is the doc.

[Nachomamma8]

Unvote, vote: jee

If jee isn't scum, you either refute my case or agree with it. Everyone else who votes for jee makes this same agreement.

[jee]

This won't put the town in any better of a situation. You lynch me today, TNM, you'll most likely be nightkilled. And then no one will be comfirmed town.

I recommend waiting til Day 4 before you push a lynch on me. Then you can see how the nightactions play out. Assuming SF is truthful, the mafia will either have to shoot me or sensfan. If mafia kills another townie, it leaves two powerroles. Basically half the town will have powerroles.


I'm still leaning toward mafia being Mr.Finch if we aren't going after SF. Although I'm very unsure about SensFan. This will also give us a better understanding on SF once the night actions happen.



@TNM, don't you think that I was planning to claim doctor the whole time, I'd be breadcrumming and playing more of a cliche doctor the whole game?

@Nacho, I don't recommend you just following along with TNM. Lets use this last week before deadline to actually scum hunt.

THE TOWN WILL BE IN A BAD SITUATION... DONT DO IT. Wait it out one more day at least.

[Nachomamma8]

Unvote, Vote: No Lynch

Jee, vote no lynch with me. Explaining in next post...

[Nachomamma8]

@TNM: We're not lynching an uncounterclaimed doc today. Jee is the key to the town's success, and it all depends on him surviving the day. Lynching him is something I can't let you do as a townie and an SE.

SensFan is gone, and Mr Finch's replacement is nowhere to be found. So, once jee votes no-lynch, it'll go through when the deadline falls through.

If we no lynch and jee protects totallynotmafia, we're going to see some inconsistencies. If Sens is scum, then there is no roleblocker. He won't be able to kill TNM, and so he'll have to settle for either A) a no kill, or B) he'll have to find someone else to kill. He'll also have to keep making up investigation results. If he says that he's been roleblocked, then jee's cleared. If jee is scum, then there is no roleblocker. If TNM dies, then Sens is automatically cleared. If someone else is scum, then he can roleblock jee and kill TNM, but Sens is cleared and given an investigative result. If they decide to try to kill TNM, then it's a no-kill and if Sens is roleblocked, jee's cleared. If TNM dies, again, Sens is cleared. If jee or Sens dies, we'll learn their alignment and have mafia waste an NK trying to figure it out instead of us wasting a lynch. If someone other than jee or Sens dies, then another person will be cleared (jee if Sens is roleblocked, otherwise the person from Sens's investigative result).

[totallynotmafia]

So we waste an opportunity to lynch potential scum just so we can speculate on another night kill? I think a no lynch is the

worst

idea.

Nacho, if the scum is you, Mr Finch or Deer, then the night kill will be tailored so that it looks like either SF or jee are scum.

I don't know how else to explain it...I am voting for who I think is scum.

If you don't lynch who you think is the scum each day then I think that is just the worst play as town.

This is my argument:

We need to find out NOW if someone multiple people think is scum (jee) is really scum or not. Otherwise, we're just gonna lynch him in LyLo, and if he really is the doc,

we lose

. If jee is scum, we win now, if jee is doc, I get NKed, and we remove that potential game-losing situation from LyLo.