Open 193 - Friends and Enemies: It's over!

[Sando]

So when Serial in one game said 'I think Sando is town' and turned out to be dead on, you went with it being a biased fluke over the rather more obvious 'these 2 know each other well and read a lot of each others game, and he read the meta well'?

We've played 2 completed games together, both times were town-town. 1 game we tried to kill each other, 1 game we were buddy buddy. Both times Ojanen killed Serial overnight I think?

[Ojanen]

I've given you some games I recall reading ABR in, so if you're flat out declaring that is how ABR plays, then link me the games you are referencing. Also, who are these "several others"? Troll is the only one I can see who seemed to be speaking about ABR's specific meta like that.

Ongoing.
Fuzzy impressions about reading some midgame in War in Heaven 2.
From your meta, I was actually in Chosen as a late replacement, Albert never got much heat there.
Besides Troll, I remember charlatan saying he disagrees about the meta before flipping his position.

I think it's unfair to talk about bias in Quick and Dirty when Serial was right about Sando-town and clearly gave reasoning to his feel btw.

What's your read of ABR, btw? Since you're concerned about empty rhetoric, what do you think about his approach to bandwagons here?

I haven't felt anything especially scummy from him.
The selective wagoning makes me think more about his inherent pompous forum style, it is only proper from the righteous role he's playing that

he

should be the one to start a bandwagon and the rest of that stuff.
I dunno. I'm nothing like him as a player but I still relate to it somehow, I feel it.
Hard to say so early, but I've disliked his voters more than him.

[Scien]

First off, let me remind everyone I very rarely have a chance to post during weekends. Now then... as I read back through:

Ok, so we have ABR-Scien scum thus far....third person is slightly more challenging.

Pretty sure of yourself eh? Sure of one scum pairing on page 5... And sure that it is chainsaw defense instead of him buddying me... Dang you are good. Got information that I don't to help you be so good?

Would you have switched just because he had beef and cheese enchiladas?

I would have. Suckas were good. If it was tuna salad sandwiches I wouldn't have however. BTW how long do you intend to keep this stuff up? You don't have anything to really comment on yet?

Scien's opening pressure is for an unimpressive reason but that's not particularly unexpected for him.

Heh, that is the second game in a row you plugged at me in begin game. At least by my memory. I guess I am going to have to come up with some counter for the next game.

The Scien/Vi argument looked boring on the surface. Felt generally a little weary of mafia.

Sorry I don't understand this, and its probably just a language thing. The argument was weary? What do you mean?

[...] I was merely stating that your post was reasonably insulting to Scien?

Reasonably insulting? Dang... everyone hates on the Scien.

1. Townie
2. Yes. There's currently another ongoing Friends and Enemies and I'm in that.

Ok... I need to take this opertunity to ask Vi a question. You are claiming that you have a reason to withhold your role, and that's all well and good. But you are not trying to stop these answers from coming out hmm... you must not be worried about the information getting revealed, and eventually revealing your role by way of exclusion? Intéressant.

Observe Scien calling my lonely vote on PorkchopExpress a wagon. Now consider that Scien put a third vote on me for "DIE VI-SCUM".

I already conceded this as bad wording on my part. Take it for what you will.

I don't believe I've seen ABR so touchy before.

That comment does not speak to something that would be meta exclusive to ABR, nor was it drawn from a specific point in any single game.

Shenanigans. You are claiming that you can take an abstract of how a good player should act and use that as a standard about how you have 'seen player X act in the past'? You most definitely

were

implying meta specific to ABR there.

Evidently Zorblag isn't as memorable as I'd have expected.

QFT. Seems to be a theme. He seemed a shadow in the background most of last game too.

Orc

, Tauren, Troll, Undead, Goblin, Elf, Dragon, Ogre? Please answer!

Bolded. Man you are bored aren't ya. (And completely against my personality, so that oughta make you work)

[To Zorblag] Actually, you've answered your own question here

Hmm. Before I find the time to go back and look, have you played more as scum with Zorblag, or more as town? Why the desire to appear to start the game differently this time?

My ass can be the center point of multi-page discussion for all I care.

'Do you know how I know you are ghey?' (forgive me heh)

I did get a weird vibe from the SC/ABR "wagon" on VP. I'm pretty sure one of them has to be scum; though I'm feeling SC more than ABR.

Wow. That's some balls on the line mafia.

Heh, agree. Amished apparently is another person who is sure of themselves oh so early.

---

Unvote

* Inconsistancies on where the meta came from for his read on ABR. Seems like trying to find a reason for his suspicions that aren't there.
* Looking and suggesting pairings with close to nothing to back it up. Even if you claimed chainsaw defense as evidence or proof, you wouldn't know if you had found friends or enemies, and from what I have seen you have done nothing to determine which you have found if you truly believe in your pairing suggestion.

Vote: VP

Are you trying to do the tried and true 'everyone loves to try and lynch me in day 1' shtick?

[Ojanen]

The Scien/Vi argument looked boring on the surface. Felt generally a little weary of mafia.

Sorry I don't understand this, and its probably just a language thing. The argument was weary? What do you mean?

I felt weary. (Sorry, I have a tendency to shortcut from using personal pronouns, stems from my native language.)

Both times Ojanen killed Serial overnight I think?

Yeah. Serial dying before me is actually a 100% scumtell for me in all our ended games so far.

[Scien]

Ah. Thanks that makes sense.

[VP Baltar]

So when Serial in one game said 'I think Sando is town' and turned out to be dead on, you went with it being a biased fluke over the rather more obvious 'these 2 know each other well and read a lot of each others game, and he read the meta well'?

Defending you as actually scumhunting when you clearly are doing very little of it is being biased.

As far as the other game, he was indeed right, but that does not mean there weren't times when he was irrationally defending you. I don't expect you to agree with me on it anyhow since you're personally invested in it. I'm just telling you what I see.

Ongoing.
Fuzzy impressions about reading some midgame in War in Heaven 2.

Ok, so you have nothing to back up what you are arguing for now.

From your meta, I was actually in Chosen as a late replacement, Albert never got much heat there.

So? He wasn't under any kind of heat here either.

The selective wagoning makes me think more about his inherent pompous forum style, it is only proper from the righteous role he's playing that he should be the one to start a bandwagon and the rest of that stuff.

No, he specifically said that "any bandwagon" would do, not "any bandwagon I start".

Hard to say so early, but I've disliked his voters more than him.

Well, we all know you and I can't get along, but I haven't heard you say anything about charlatan. What don't you like about him?

Pretty sure of yourself eh? Sure of one scum pairing on page 5... And sure that it is chainsaw defense instead of him buddying me... Dang you are good. Got information that I don't to help you be so good?

It's called experience and a good intuition.

You most definitely were implying meta specific to ABR there.

Not giving a knee-jerk OMGUS when someone calls you scum is something that is just good town play and is hardly specific to only ABR.

* Looking and suggesting pairings with close to nothing to back it up. Even if you claimed chainsaw defense as evidence or proof, you wouldn't know if you had found friends or enemies, and from what I have seen you have done nothing to determine which you have found if you truly believe in your pairing suggestion.

Well, I'd hope the masons play better than that. That's all I'm saying on the issue.

Are you trying to do the tried and true 'everyone loves to try and lynch me in day 1' shtick?

I'm just surviving and pointing out the scums.

[Vi]

SerialClergyman, could you please elaborate on your meta on Sando?

See, it's rubbish comments like that one from VP that I don't like. He's not bitching about a lack of content, he's making a specific accusation against you. His argument said you are hypocritical for attacking someone for only having a gut reason when you yourself have used mostly gut so far to come to your reads. This is scumhunting, or what passes for it early on D1.

You also invoked lynch all liars for what barely passed for a 'lie', you were surprised Albert was touchy when being accused of scum, alluded to meta reasons for suspecting Albert but produced none when asked, Didn't join the Albert wagon until there was someone else on it.

So yep, you're the scummiest person around at the moment, just on the usual D1 straws.

Vi, expand on your VP read - what do you think of these issues I raise?

First paragraph: While I acknowledge that VP Baltar was incorrect in Sando saying

in that post

that there was no content to be seen anywhere in the thread, and the point made by Sando here is worthwhile, it was an easy mistake to make because Sando was previously complaining about

exactly that

.

Second paragraph: The first point, I agree with; tacking "LAL" onto the vote to give it legitimacy rings false. I disagree with your second point, based on what little I know of ABR's meta. I'm leaning toward agreeing on the third point, as while VP Baltar was well within his boundaries to argue that ABR is an experienced player, he completely ignored that ABR has his own brand of meta working for him (see also Ojanen 197). The fourth point is true but not much of a tell in my experience.

There are a few reasons to suspect VP Baltar, but I very much prefer my Sando hate - especially when accusations like these are on the VP Baltar wagon.

Pretty sure of yourself eh? Sure of one scum pairing on page 5... And sure that it is chainsaw defense instead of him buddying me... Dang you are good. Got information that I don't to help you be so good?

Are you trying to do the tried and true 'everyone loves to try and lynch me in day 1' shtick?

----

I do play a reactive game and I tailor my style to the players I'm playing with. If I'm ICing a newbie game then I'm going to push the pace and be aggresive because most newbies don't know they need to contribute. But playing in a game with VPB, Vi, and SC (amongst others) I know I don't need to be the one to push the pace because they're very comfortable taking that role. We've had what, four days for this game?

I'm just waiting to see something I view as scummy to start running with.

In that case, I'll hang on to every word you say~

[Amished]

@Scien: Really? In 202 you seem to be implying that people that can get a read on other people in murky waters is *almost* impossible; by basically directly calling VP and I really good (referring to "how can I get this good" towards VP and then relating that to my read on ABR/SC wagoning VP). You weren't in Last Man Standing, but in post 93 I had voted for CA for a specific line that he said (which always gets me non-scum it seems like) but also nailed two scum out of my vibes. I take pretty high stock in them; and in another ongoing I picked out at least 2 scum in my 5 accusations due to vibes (out of 15 alive).

@VP: I hate hate hate hate my meta of you. That is all I'm saying on the issue.

I actually wouldn't doubt an {ABR/SC}/Scien/Ojanen scumteam. OJ is the one I'm least confident about.

[Sando]

Wow VPB, you're so delusional, it's almost comical. I don't expect you to agree with me though, as you're personally invested.

The LAL thing made me laugh though, good to see VPB has decided to ignore that.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I do play a reactive game and I tailor my style to the players I'm playing with. If I'm ICing a newbie game then I'm going to push the pace and be aggresive because most newbies don't know they need to contribute. But playing in a game with VPB, Vi, and SC (amongst others) I know I don't need to be the one to push the pace because they're very comfortable taking that role. We've had what, four days for this game?

I'm just waiting to see something I view as scummy to start running with.

In that case, I'll hang on to every word you say~

You mean you don't already?

[Sando]

Vi - Just out of curiosity, why are you asking for SCs meta on me? I don't mean what you expect to get out of it, I understand that, but what has prompted you to ask, what posts etc?

Amished - Why SC or ABR? I assume that's what you're getting at with your {}. I could understand saying something like 'I can see a 3 scum team in SC/ABR/Scien/OJ', but you seem to have singled out ABR and SC as mutually exclusive as scum, why?

[Sando]

I do play a reactive game and I tailor my style to the players I'm playing with. If I'm ICing a newbie game then I'm going to push the pace and be aggresive because most newbies don't know they need to contribute. But playing in a game with VPB, Vi, and SC (amongst others) I know I don't need to be the one to push the pace because they're very comfortable taking that role. We've had what, four days for this game?

I'm just waiting to see something I view as scummy to start running with.

In that case, I'll hang on to every word you say~

You mean you don't already?

I hope not, you've have just lynched him 5 times...

[Scien]

In 202 you seem to be implying that people that can get a read on other people in murky waters is *almost* impossible;

Nah. Not reads, just being 'sure'. Getting reads can happen anytime. Being 'sure' someone is scum, or being 'sure' someone is paired with someone in murky waters rings a bit odd to me.

You are not as guilty of it as VP (you hadn't suggested pairs until just recently, and had more comment before your 'sure' comment came out), don't get me wrong, but I would be lying if I tried to claim that I didn't think your confidence sounded odd.

You are stretching my meaning a bit it seems... claiming that I am saying reads in general are impossible. Is this stretch intentional? Maybe, we'll see it.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I do play a reactive game and I tailor my style to the players I'm playing with. If I'm ICing a newbie game then I'm going to push the pace and be aggresive because most newbies don't know they need to contribute. But playing in a game with VPB, Vi, and SC (amongst others) I know I don't need to be the one to push the pace because they're very comfortable taking that role. We've had what, four days for this game?

I'm just waiting to see something I view as scummy to start running with.

In that case, I'll hang on to every word you say~

You mean you don't already?

I hope not, you've have just lynched him 5 times...

In English this time.

[Sando]

I do play a reactive game and I tailor my style to the players I'm playing with. If I'm ICing a newbie game then I'm going to push the pace and be aggresive because most newbies don't know they need to contribute. But playing in a game with VPB, Vi, and SC (amongst others) I know I don't need to be the one to push the pace because they're very comfortable taking that role. We've had what, four days for this game?

I'm just waiting to see something I view as scummy to start running with.

In that case, I'll hang on to every word you say~

You mean you don't already?

I hope not, you've have just lynched him 5 times...

In English this time.

Was just joking that if he hangs on your every word your 5 word post just lynched him 5 times.

[Scien]

I suck at English... all around. Reading my own posts in retrospect usually results in me crying a bit on the inside.

At least I think my meaning is clear...

[Vi]

Re: DDD - I've heard "most helpful lurker" before... from DDD-scum in Appenine Mafia. Fool me once, etc.
Also, I didn't say "hang you on every word you say"

Vi - Just out of curiosity, why are you asking for SCs meta on me? I don't mean what you expect to get out of it, I understand that, but what has prompted you to ask, what posts etc?

SerialClergyman's meta on you is becoming a big deal - and what's interesting is that it's not SC bringing it up.
I would like to hear the orange dino's take on your play and other people bringing up your interaction with him.

[Sando]

I guess that answers my question.

And yeah I realised the use of the word 'to' after saying that joke

Vi you seem to have avoided the point that Serial was making regarding VPBs LAL comment. VPB made it quite clear that he never said LAL, yet Serials quote seems to contradict that. It's not simply a matter of trying to add legitimacy, he's clearly contradicting himself. Thoughts?

[Amished]

I just don't think that two scum would start a wagon together like that out of the blue. Yeah, anything can happen, but with the level of people here I think that they'd avoid that.

It's just the way that the wagon on VP started (and since it started within like 3-4 posts without checking) gives the whole situation a bad vibe instead of being able to pick out one over the other. I do think that SC is more likely to be scum due to that instance than ABR but I wouldn't be surprised with either.

I often remember very little about specifics in a game; but I tend to recognize tones, and when they don't fit. About the only thing I remember of the Last Man Standing game (that I referenced earlier) is d3x's (scum) self preservation type tone early on and Ecto's (scum) shooting of Vi cause it didn't seem to ring right with their other actions. I know VP was suspicious of me for a long time for reasons yet unknown; and Vi didn't lead us to victory (other than being a great backup mod and making fun of my non-pacifist Amish persona ). Right now, the only thing that *really* stands out to me is the early votes on VP. ABR is hard to read anyways and I haven't had that much time to look over SC; but that situation just keeps bugging me for some reason.

[Amished]

Sando, I thought VP made it clear that he was focused on ABR with the "didn't say LAL" comment; while he did say LAL after his first vote or something like that.

[Sando]

Sando, I thought VP made it clear that he was focused on ABR with the "didn't say LAL" comment; while he did say LAL after his first vote or something like that.

Oh, you're right, I went back and checked that, cheers. Vi and VPB can ignore my questions about that then.

[charlatan]

spam incoming!!

If we don't discriminate in our actions, we are acting no better than at random.

Well, that's neat, but it doesn't help much here. Before I was meant to believe that the point of starting a VP wagon was to "get the game moving", and trying to start a brand new wagon when one was already building seemed counter to that goal.

Now, I see that you have "discriminated" between VP and Scien. I'm happy to hear you say that, because it's obvious that you did anyways. But I guess what I'd still like to hear is what made VP a better choice over Scien? If you discriminated, what was the basis for your discrimination?

It would be helpful for me (and probably everyone else) if you gave a specific answer instead of a vague platitude.

I NEVER SAID HE LIED ABOUT ANYTHING, NOR DID I SAY LYNCH ALL LIARS.

Oh ho, but you definitely did. This is the funniest thing in the game so far, because it's far closer to an outright lie than ABR's fuzzy logic was. I'm going to go ahead and be the fourth person to mention it since you still haven't addressed it in your last few posts.

There's so much shadiness on both sides of the ABR-VP back and forth that it's starting to feel more like scum distancing than a legit argument.

Any conclusions from the lulz reactions since you (intentionally?) seem to be somewhat referencing Amished?

Certainly Amished's reactions do not help him in my eyes, but as the responses to me dicking around were not especially strong they are of limited usefulness to me, which is also why I've dropped the act.

BTW how long do you intend to keep this stuff up? You don't have anything to really comment on yet?

I have not been keeping this stuff up for some time now.

Hmm. Before I find the time to go back and look, have you played more as scum with Zorblag, or more as town? Why the desire to appear to start the game differently this time?

This was meant for everyone, not just Zorblag, but mostly I was interested in seeing if there were any particularly interesting responses to the change in play. I have played with almost everyone here, and most of you more than once, and most of you as both scum and town, I think. I always play a pretty straight game regardless of alignment, so I was curious as to what switching it up would do. I have played with Zorblag twice as town, once as scum, I think.

We've had what, four days for this game? I'm just waiting to see something I view as scummy to start running with.

Four days and nine pages of content. It's really not too shabby for a Day 1 so far, in my humble opinion. Either way, I guess I'll have to assume that when you do run with something, it will be the scummiest thing yet in the game in your mind, which will be pretty neat! I bet it'll be a really really scummy thing!

[Scien]

I have not been keeping this stuff up for some time now.

For the record... that was posted in the middle of me catching up. I agree it looks like you are playing more now, and no longer baiting people with 'silliness'. Carry on. Heh.

[Albert B. Rampage]

FOS

Charlie for implying that we should all just bandwagon the first person that gets some votes. If we did that, the mafia would have total control of the game.

I find VPB unhelpful and more of a eyesore than anything else, so I won't be missing him once he's gone. Scien hasn't done anything to bother me.

[charlatan]

FOS

Charlie for implying that we should all just bandwagon the first person that gets some votes. If we did that, the mafia would have total control of the game.

That's not what I implied at all. If anything,

you

suggested that with the assertion that all bandwagons are good ones. If you actually just wanted to run up a bandwagon on someone and it didn't matter who it was, you would have contributed to the already existing bandwagon. Obviously, we do not play in a vacuum. Obviously, you had a reason for wanting a new bandwagon on VP. Obviously, you should be able to provide that reasoning. For whatever reason, you still do not, which is a problem.