Mini 904 - Narnia: LWW Mafia (Game Over)

[manho]

No, I'm not agreeing that a quickwagon is a good way to get out of RVS. It's a terrible way. Not good, and certainly not the best. (See example linked to PZ.)

so in how many games can you find 1 game that a day 1 quick lynch happen?

[manho]

and in how many non-newbie games can you find 1 game that a day 1 quick lynch happen (except for some games with strange mechanic).

[dybeck]

J.R.,

I'm reading your sig but I'm not feeling it. What are your thoughts on the day so far?

[Riceballtail]

and in how many non-newbie games can you find 1 game that a day 1 quick lynch happen (except for some games with strange mechanic).

Stop strawmanning and answer the (implied) question. That said, I'm quite confident you're scum now. So that's one down.

[kikuchiyo]

RBT: What was your question? I am having trouble discerning it.

[Kdub]

Vote Count

Starbuck (3)

- dybeck, Papa Zito, J.R

Riceballtail (0)

-

bv310 (0)

-

MadCrawdad (0)

-

kikuchiyo (0)

-

Heilograph (1)

- MadCrawdad

Papa Zito (2)

- Heilograph, Sibelius

wolframnhart (0)

-

J.R (2)

- wolframnhart, Starbuck

manho (1)

- Riceballtail

dybeck (0)

-

Sibelius (0)

-

No Lynch (0)

-

Not Voting (3)

- kikuchiyo, bv310, manho

12 votes available, 7 votes needed to lynch.

Deadline is January 26, ~ 12:30 am MST.

[dybeck]

I'm not sure I'd be entirely unhappy about a kikuchiyo wagon, either.

I'd sincerely like to see her vote, and to give a sincere justification for her choice, for starters.

[Kdub]

J.R has requested replacement. I will begin searching for one.

[Riceballtail]

RBT: What was your question? I am having trouble discerning it.

In essence, what makes a quickwagon a good way to get out of RVS?

[dybeck]

RBT: What was your question? I am having trouble discerning it.

In essence, what makes a quickwagon a good way to get out of RVS?

Shouldn't this question be to Manho, rather than kikuchiyo? It was Manho that was the spoken advocate of this.

Also, would anyone who disagrees with this argue with the proposition that it's actually worked rather well here? I feel like we're getting some decent reads for such a young game.

[Riceballtail]

The question is to manho, but kiku asked that question.

Also, this can be a possible exception to the rule (like you never have a lynch on page 2, which I've clearly presented data against).

[MadCrawdad]

I didn't like that she called it scummy to have an L-3, but I didn't like having anyone at L-3 this early, especially in RVS. It just seemed that there was too much opportunity for it to go bad, but Starbuck whiteknight-ing the cause seemed like an attempt to build town cred without having to do anything all that pro-town.

Yeah, but the thing is, it appears that you hopped on her cause

immediately

. And when popular opinion went against her, you reversed course and did a complete 180. That not only seems opportunistic, but wishy-washy as well.

FoS: bv310

----------

Also, would anyone who disagrees with this argue with the proposition that it's actually worked rather well here? I feel like we're getting some decent reads for such a young game.

Agreed. Having something game-related to discuss early definitely beats a long, drawn-out RVS.

[manho]

RBT: What was your question? I am having trouble discerning it.

In essence, what makes a quickwagon a good way to get out of RVS?

really don't know you are asking this... you need to be more specific next time if you want to ask something and expect an ansswer.

i know it from my experience. the RVSs end quickly in the games with a quickwagon.

[kikuchiyo]

Okay, RBT, after that answer: Do you still have an issue with manho?

dybeck: You say we are getting decent reads. Could you expand on that a little with some examples?

[dybeck]

dybeck: You say we are getting decent reads. Could you expand on that a little with some examples?

I'd rather keep that to myself for now. I've said who I've got my eyes on Day 1.

How about some input from you? And how about that vote I suggested you make? Any reason you're not committing?

[Kdub]

Grandi replaces J.R. Thanks Grandi!

[wolframnhart]

Welcome Grandi, I kinda expected J.R. to request a replacement, haven't seen a completed game by him yet, but oh well.

Pretty easy read for you, let us know what you think (if anything).

[kikuchiyo]

I'd rather keep that to myself for now. I've said who I've got my eyes on Day 1.

I see where your vote is. I guess I am not sure what you mean by "decent reads".

How about some input from you? And how about that vote I suggested you make? Any reason you're not committing?

I am participating as I see fit. Which vote are you suggesting I make? I am not sold on Starbuck as scum. I see no reason to "commit" to anything at this point.

I am a bit confused at where RBT is going with his questioning of manho. I don't disagree with the reasons players are voting for Starbuck(PZ's makes sense), but meta tells me to overlook her for now. Let's here Grandi's take.

[Grandi]

Welcome Grandi, I kinda expected J.R. to request a replacement, haven't seen a completed game by him yet, but oh well.

Pretty easy read for you, let us know what you think (if anything).

Thank you

I did a cursory glance of the game while awaiting response from the mod. Will look a bit better tomorrow, just wanted to get my thoughts in so far now.

Pretty much all the game so far has been about starbuck's reaction to the random wagon. I think that was a mild scumtell, let me explain why:

First of all, i like random wagons. They generally bring you out of RVS pretty quick, and i also like to put pressure on people, they tend to be much easier to read. In case of a random wagon, there are 2 options:

1) Good or bad reactions of the wagonee, and weird reactions of other people. All of these provide you with information and give you a base on which you can continue. Happens 99% of the time
2) Scum quicklynches. I really can't see how people see this as a bad thing. At L-3 that would be 3 scum giving themselves away. i really wish they would do this, would make it a lot easier for us. Happens almost never.

Those are the only 2 options. No town would ever do this (yeah, RBT, some newbie did it once in his first game on the site). So there are 2 possible consequenses of a random wagon, and they are both good.
I can understand if you would rather have other ways out of RVS, but i would really like to hear from everyone against a random wagon why they think that's scummy.
Also, Starbuck, a lot of games on this site start with random wagons. You must have come across a couple if you really played 30ish games here. Do you always respond this way, or is there something especially scummy here? Links/examples of you reaction to random wagons this way please. Also, people who played with her before, have you seen her react like this before?


So, i don't think Starbucks reaction was justified. But does that make it scummy? Let's see:
- I can see absolutely no reason for a townie to react the way SB did, trying to "stop the quicklynch". The only thing i can come up with is if she thought the wagon would go straight to lynch, and i simply can't believe that someone who played 30ish games here believes there is a chance a random wagon without a case or anything is in danger of being lynched when it is at L-3
- On the other hand, i can't see a lot of incentive for scum to act this way either. I can see the "white knight" thingy, but it would be very awkward scum play at best. Any semi-decent player could see there was no danger of lynching there, and if there was it would only be good as it exposes scum.

Not very strong play in either case, but i can see clumsy scum gambit easier than starbuck actually thinking there was danger of a quicklynch and thinking that was a bad thing. There wasn't any big gain as scum here though so i'm prolly not gonna see this as a major tell.

Tomorrow more thorough, player specific reread, until then:

unvote

If anyone has questions, let's hear them.

[Grandi]

Oh, and i would like to ask every player who is saying random wagons are bad, to explain why in response to my explanation of why they aren't.

[Grandi]

@PZ: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10078 - Lynch achieved on page 1.

I remember that one! I replaced mr. lynch page 1 there. Glad i could lynch you there, even though it didn't help in the end.

[dybeck]

How about some input from you? And how about that vote I suggested you make? Any reason you're not committing?

I am participating as I see fit. Which vote are you suggesting I make? I am not sold on Starbuck as scum. I see no reason to "commit" to anything at this point.

Noted.

I don't disagree with the reasons players are voting for Starbuck(PZ's makes sense), but meta tells me to overlook her for now.

Noted.

[Papa Zito]

meta tells me to overlook her for now.

Explain this plz. What about meta allows you to give carte blanche to another player?

Not Voting (4)- kikuchiyo, bv310, manho, Grandi

Vote people.


Man, posting from the PS3 is way too hard. Stupid dead laptop.

[bv310]

meta tells me to overlook her for now.

Explain this plz. What about meta allows you to give carte blanche to another player?

Not Voting (4)- kikuchiyo, bv310, manho, Grandi

Vote people.


Man, posting from the PS3 is way too hard. Stupid dead laptop.

Deadline's not until the 26th. I see no need to force a vote right now, not while there's still a bit of discussion going on.

[Riceballtail]

Not voting means you don't think anyone is scummy. At least one person must be scummier than the rest to everyone. Not sharing that information with the town is, well, scummy.