Mini 891 - British Comedy Mafia (Game Over)

[Budja]

Why would a townie defend someone else?

Cos your attack was very wrong.

If you're town Budja, and VT at that, how the hell do you know who is and isn't town.

By scumhunting and getting town reads.

I could continue but basically everything you say is wrong.

Here are the reads I am most confident with:
You are town (but a "little" off on your reads)
Net is town.
Imag/ML are prob town.
---
Locke/Kik is leaning scum.
BC is scum.

[imaginality]

A few stray thoughts on BC's posts:

11 - fishing
33 - the way he rides Chinaman's post here is an easy lazy way to get on a wagon, echoed in another of his votes later on
39 - the start of this post completely evades the point of DeathSauce's post (which was "Why aren't you scumhunting?" not, "Why did you unvote Budja?")
44 - yey, omgus
48 - the 'both scum' possible-slip
58 - worried scum are angry scum
60 - this mistake again shows how he's eager to back up other people's suspicions whenever possible
69 - doesn't comment on the case on Locke despite asking to see it (if BC flips scum Locke might be a good bet for scumbuddy)

[MacavityLock]

hey mac, do you think it's odd that imag decided to post in your defense before you? I sure as hell do. In fact, I think it's even more suspicious given your voting patterns and the fact that we are really close to deadline. I will tell you what I think about it after you tell me how you feel about it.

Do I think it's strange? Yeah, I do, actually. Do I think it's a big obvious neon "SCUM" sign? No, I don't. It is not something I'm interested in pursuing today, as we have less than 2 days remaining to deadline. But, yes, it is something worth noting.

I honestly think this pegs you as pretty obv scum at this point imag. You are either hardcore buddying up to a town mac or you are covering for your scum buddy in case he didn't get around to posting before lynch.

I thought you were going to wait for me to answer before giving your commentary. Weird.

Mac, please also explain to me how you can call Budja the easy lynch choice (ie, i read you saying that as Budja has played scummy as hell and is an easy target because people often like to lynch scummy play......correct me if I'm wrong) yet when it comes down to the 2 choices of feasible lynches, you think BC is the more scummy due to....uh....voting patterns? Let me say that I do realize that is part of my suspicion of you and imag, but I'm lynching the most scummy of the 3 of you first...which is Budja.... On that same note though, how can you justify your vote of BC yet ignore my thoughts surrounding you, budja, and imag's voting patterns?

Well before BC's second vote on Budja, there had been a Big Wagon (TM) on Budja. (I know it got up to L-2, not sure if it got to L-1.) Putting a vote back on someone like Budja once Big Wagon-Vanilla Claim has occurred will probably not raise all that much suspicion. Therefore, easy vote. No, I don't think Budja has "played scummy as hell", and I have said as much multiple times before.

I'm not ignoring your thoughts on the voting patterns of me, Budja, and imag. You're right, none of us have voted for either of the others. I'm going to make a guess here, imag and Budja, correct me if I'm wrong: None of us are particularly high on any of the others' scumlists. How does this make any of us more likely to be scum?

[imaginality]

Chinaman, I agree that when asked about

motives for a particular comment/vote/etc.

, answering on someone else's behalf is scummy. And to an extent, coming in to defend someone who's being attacked is something scum might do depending on the situation. However, I don't think there's anything scummy about pointing out when an attack is based on a misinterpretation (whether deliberate or accidental) of the attacked player's post. In this case, it was obvious your attack on Mac was flawed. What benefit is there in getting Mac to say so himself? Whether he is town or scum, your attack on him was flawed. It's very different to putting a motive into his mouth.

[imaginality]

(Admittedly, earlier in the day, there's a possible argument against doing what I just did, because you could argue it's better to wait and see if there's scum around who are willing to jump on a wagon based on your flawed attack before I (or whoever) points out the flaw in the attack. So, keeping quiet could expose opportunistic scum. However, at this point in the day that's not going to happen.)

[Chinaman]

well, the 4 of us could go round and round with BC popping in to comment as well, but I'd like to get some other thoughts.

Basically it all boils down to me not seeing any of ya'lls posts between 569-572 being anything I would write in response to the post I wrote. I can humbly admit I read Mac's post a little off and took it to mean any lynch of eligible candidates would be ok, and just thought it odd he didn't pick the largest based on that, but I can see where out of the 2 most likely wagons, he has BC as scummier than Budja. I personally don't, but I digress, my scumdar isn't based on that anymore.

I still have voting patterns and responses you all have given as of late. They are all just really off to me and not how I see a townie reacting to them.

Imag, had you not been included in my suspicious list in the my post after which you defended Mac, I could buy the explanation you gave in p578, but seeing as I suspected you as well, I can't buy you just mentioning my thoughts on Mac and ignoring the thoughts on you as well.

Could I be totally off? Of course, I only know of one townie for sure. Do I think I'm totally off? Absolutely not. Mac's p577 is the closest to a townie post in response to what I've said thus far as any of you have given. Problem is it came only after I mentioned it didn't come before.

But I digress. I'm not going to go round and round with people I have suspicions about. Once others decide to chime in, we can start anew. Tomorrow (real time) should be interesting to say the least.

[Chinaman]

I will ask you (Mac and Imag) this though. In Budja's most recent posts, why do you think these would be coming from a townie over coming from scum? Everything he writes screams scum to me...how am I (and apparently 4 others) so very wrong and it is you 2 who are right?

[imaginality]

Imag, had you not been included in my suspicious list in the my post after which you defended Mac, I could buy the explanation you gave in p578, but seeing as I suspected you as well, I can't buy you just mentioning my thoughts on Mac and ignoring the thoughts on you as well.

I didn't ignore your thoughts on me:

I've noticed my thoughts this game have been pretty much in line with MacavityLock's a lot of the time. Itz cos he's smart like wot i is. I think he and I think similarly. From my perspective I don't think he's buddying up to me deliberately so it makes me feel more confident in him also being town.

That was my response to your point against me, given that your point against me was only that I seem to be too closely aligned with Mac (and Budja). So I commented on that connection.

[Chinaman]

Oh, and Mac, I WAS going to wait but decided it didn't really matter at this point. I meant to take out the part about waiting for you to answer. /shrug

Btw, I'm not proved town yet and you all think my attacks are full of holes yet none of you are saying I'm scum and just lying about being a Mason. Not saying that this is a tell for you all, but I will say it shows me that some (if not all) of you already know I'm town (cuz...you know...you're scum). It's a very small footnote in a growing list, but it's there for me at least. (I know, I attack Net for trying to lynch me and out my partner before it's time and I attack you all for not mentioning it as a possibility....life just so isn't fair!)

[Budja]

You are crazy.
You are also very likely to be town.

[MacavityLock]

I will ask you (Mac and Imag) this though. In Budja's most recent posts, why do you think these would be coming from a townie over coming from scum? Everything he writes screams scum to me...how am I (and apparently 4 others) so very wrong and it is you 2 who are right?

Now you're just directly asking us to defend him. Isn't defending people scummy?

Why are his posts more likely to be coming from scum? I seriously haven't seen any convincing arguments yet.

Btw, I'm not proved town yet and you all think my attacks are full of holes yet none of you are saying I'm scum and just lying about being a Mason. Not saying that this is a tell for you all, but I will say it shows me that some (if not all) of you already know I'm town (cuz...you know...you're scum). It's a very small footnote in a growing list, but it's there for me at least. (I know, I attack Net for trying to lynch me and out my partner before it's time and I attack you all for not mentioning it as a possibility....life just so isn't fair!)

Given the mason claim, you're not the person to test today. You still haven't answered my questios about how you're provably or disprovably anything.

[Chinaman]

Yes imag, but you commented on it with a positive feel for Mac vs suspicion. How you can not be suspicious of every little detail in a game like Mafiascum when playing town is beyond me. Hell, if my role PM didn't specifically tell me that I knew my partner was of like mind, I would suspect that person as well! It's part of being town. You don't worry about your town reads as it's a scums job to look as town as possible (meaning agreeing with town when they are on the road to mislynching). As town, you worry about minor details that don't always make sense. This is something you've failed to do over and over again when it concerns Budja and Mac. That is where I'm coming from. The same could be said of Mac in reference to you and Budja (minus p577).

*last post without other peoples comments...I swear.*

[imaginality]

I will ask you (Mac and Imag) this though. In Budja's most recent posts, why do you think these would be coming from a townie over coming from scum?

Most of Budja's recent ones look better than some of the earlier ones did, at least as I recall. Looking back from the most recent:

iso 67: the scum list here is a bit minimal, I'll grant you that
iso 66: seems fine
iso 65: getting people to choose a wagon (and thereby get their opinions on the merits of the wagons on record for us to look back at tomorrow) with deadline approaching is pro-town (scum here might be more likely to strongly urge those people to vote BC, not to choose for themselves what's best)
iso 64: reminding people deadline's approaching is fine
iso 63: fits with iso 62
iso 62: null, could come from scum or town

[ortolan]

Twenty first vote count

Budja (5): Josh Lyman, Fuzzyman, Snow_Bunny, DeathSauce, BloodCovenent
BloodCovenent (3): Budja, imaginality, MacavityLock
Netopalis (1): Chinaman
Josh Lyman (1): danakillsu

Not voting (2): kikuchiyo, Netopalis

7 to lynch.

Just a reminder that the deadline is still set for Wednesday the 13th, 10pm, AEST time (22 hours from this post) - this will not be extended under any circumstances. Without a majority no-one will be lynched.

[BloodCovenent]

Imag, you're Iso of Budja is just awful. You can make ANYONE look town or scummy with a PbPa. For instance, Budja's 64 is quite obvious that he wants to lynch me, and if he can't, he wants another wagon fast. See, I just made him scummy. Imag, please refrain for making PbPa's again. Also I notice you only used posts in the last 48 hours, why didn't you use other posts?

Now to my PbPa,
11 - it looks like i'm fishing? How do you see that? Where am I fishing?
33 -I didn't ride china's post, I stated before that I didn't like the claim, if you want, you can read the earlier posts of mine in iso, and find it.
39 - way to misinterpret Deathsauces post. He didn't ask, why aren't I scum hunting, he just suggested I do it. Nice try.
44 - was not omigus, I voted with reasons, unlike Budja, I have a case on budja, he has nothing on me, but wants me lynched.
48 - I think I explained that well enough in iso 49
58 - Pissed off townie
60 - So everything I say has to have my own reasons for it that are written out? You don't think it at all scummy how Net reacted to China's claim? I sure as hell did. I was willing to lynch him today too, but that's not likely going to happen.
69 - Why the fuck should I comment on a post that involves someone else? Why are you holding that against me? Unlike you, you seem to buddy up with so many players, I don't do that. I don't answer questions for lock. Budja has shitty reasons for players being scummy, and you guys seem to back him up for some reason.

If you're town Budja, and VT at that, how the hell do you know who is and isn't town.

By scumhunting and getting town reads.

Budja, you have not scumhunted at all! Nice try.

Oh, Budja, how is KiK scum? how do you gain that from his two posts?

Oh wait... way to dodge question budja.

---
Kik has not said anything yet despite posting elsewhere. If BC is scum, Kik is a good partner choice.

How does that make Kik a likely partner?

[Budja]

Because scum can easily choose to not post/stall making their choice until deadline.
Kik has had time to post and has failed to do so. Also I had gut/meta scum on Locke.

If you care to read me ISO, I'm sure you can find my case. Its a bit muddled but easily stronger than your "attack".

[BloodCovenent]

Because scum can easily choose to not post/stall making their choice until deadline.
Kik has had time to post and has failed to do so. Also I had gut/meta scum on Locke.

If you care to read me ISO, I'm sure you can find my case. Its a bit muddled but easily stronger than your "attack".

That doesn't mean Kik is scum. Unless you basing your read off of the prior player?

I did read you in ISo, I can't find it. would you mind pointing it out? I know i've asked you several times.

[Snow_Bunny]

Hmm... Interesting theory about Budja/Mac/Imag. Though, to be honest, I'm getting more of a read of a Mac/Imag without Budja (well, I see more possible a Net/Budja team, and I hardly see 4 scums). One way or another, we have nailed the scum. Easy game.

[Snow_Bunny]

Net's lack of answer to how I'm "extremely scummy" is also noted.

[kikuchiyo]

I apologize for this, I will be caught up today. Deadline just crept up. I have been involved in a couple other games in which I was current and just couldn't find a block of time to catch up. I have today off so it shouldn't be a problem.

[imaginality]

Imag, please refrain for making PbPa's again. Also I notice you only used posts in the last 48 hours, why didn't you use other posts?

I will ask you (Mac and Imag) this though. In Budja's

most recent posts

, why do you think these would be coming from a townie over coming from scum?

Now to my PbPa,
11 - it looks like i'm fishing? How do you see that? Where am I fishing?

By saying 'this smells fishy to me' it looked like you were hoping to prod Net into explaining his comment in more detail which would give you some more information about Net's role, perhaps a sense of whether he's a PR or not.

33 -I didn't ride china's post, I stated before that I didn't like the claim, if you want, you can read the earlier posts of mine in iso, and find it.

Yeah, you'd shown suspicion, but the timing of your vote just after Chinaman's case made it look like you wanted Chinaman to lead the wagon and take the flak if it came under pressure (or if it went through and JL flipped town) while you stand quietly behind him out of the spotlight.

39 - way to misinterpret Deathsauces post. He didn't ask, why aren't I scum hunting, he just suggested I do it. Nice try.

Actually, it's weirder than that now I look back at it:

Also, add me to the list that dislikes

dana's

entrance into this game. You don't understand the Budja wagon so you jump on the Josh wagon? There are alternatives, like, I don't know, scum hunting.

I guess

i'm

just not much of a fan of Budja's play style in general.

Why did you answer DeathSauce's point when it was addressed to dana?
Maybe you just misquoted the wrong post or something here. It's pretty odd.

44 - was not omigus, I voted with reasons, unlike Budja, I have a case on budja, he has nothing on me, but wants me lynched.

Yeah, you had a case on him, but again with the timing. To quote you, "why the sudden change?" My theory is, look three posts earlier, when Chinaman unvoted JL. You thought, "uh-oh, JL wagon is going nowhere now," and switched tack to Budja. Which would actually be okayish if you stated that as a reason for switching, but to leave it unstated strengthens my suspicion that you wanted Chinaman to do the work and take the heat for the JL wagon.

As for the omgus, it's just a weak case of that - basically, of the possible other targets to switch to, you chose the one who's expressed suspicion of you.

48 - I think I explained that well enough in iso 49

Okay.

58 - Pissed off townie

Okay.

60 - So everything I say has to have my own reasons for it that are written out? You don't think it at all scummy how Net reacted to China's claim? I sure as hell did. I was willing to lynch him today too, but that's not likely going to happen.

It's another case of you letting someone else express suspicion (or so you thought) and jumping on their case. Again it's the timing. If you'd said, "Net dies tomorrow" before that post, I wouldn't find it suspicious. But as mentioned above this is a pattern of behaviour you've displayed several times today, and one that I think at least gives some reason for suspicion.

69 - Why the fuck should I comment on a post that involves someone else? Why are you holding that against me?

Because

you

said in 68 "pull up a case, and maybe i'll switch over." Budja pulls up a case on Locke for you (whether it's weak or strong is irrelevant here), and you... don't say

anything

about it at all.

[imaginality]

Btw, I'm not proved town yet and you all think my attacks are full of holes yet none of you are saying I'm scum and just lying about being a Mason.

I gave my reasons earlier for currently believing your mason claim.

Yes imag, but you commented on it with a positive feel for Mac vs suspicion. How you can not be suspicious of every little detail in a game like Mafiascum when playing town is beyond me. Hell, if my role PM didn't specifically tell me that I knew my partner was of like mind, I would suspect that person as well! It's part of being town. You don't worry about your town reads as it's a scums job to look as town as possible (meaning agreeing with town when they are on the road to mislynching).

Town reads can be useful. I often have more success (particularly later days) targeting scum by deciding certain players are town and seeing if scum fit amongst the remainder. (I am not saying I have a town read on Mac purely because he tends to agree with me though. If that were my only reason for thinking him to be town then I agree that would be a riskier way to play.)

Your post reminds me of that thread in MD recently about whether people play by assuming everyone's scum until proven otherwise, or assuming everyone's town until proven otherwise. I tend towards the latter approach, it sounds like you take the former. Either works, I think it's a playstyle thing.

[Chinaman]

Damn it all to hell.

Did I miss major V/LA from some folks or something? Deadline is fast approaching and there are 5 people doing most the talking/case building. Net has not answered Snowbunny and indeed it looks like both have a little OMGUS going on (though I don't care to look back to see who started it).

MOD: Where the hell is JL. You have not mentioned prodding or replacing him yet his last post is in freaking December.

To all others, depending on what the mod's answer with JL is, I would just assume to lynch him today. I mean seriously. The heat comes off with most of us at least buying he has a PR (whether it be scum, serial killer, town, or otherwise), and he just stops posting?

Also, Dana, how bout you pay attention to a game you're in and in fact replaced into.

Those I would like to post something today:

-Dana (something useful. Last post: Dec 21st)
-Fuzzy (something more than 2 effin lines. I ISO'ed you and out of 37 posts, only 5 are more than 2 liners. Ridiculous to the point of actively lurking. Last post: Jan 5th)
-JL (or Mod with info. Last post: Dec 27th)
-Net (regarding new occurances/wagons)
-Kik (something not related to you catching up)

Looking at that list, I could easily see those of us who are mainly talking being town fighting with town due to lack of any tells at all from some of the above. I don't think that to be the case and am still for a Budja lynch today, but just putting the thought out there.

[imaginality]

^^ Good post.

[kikuchiyo]

I am on page 13. Its quite confusing. I could support a Lyman lynch, based on the discrepancy of his claim(creates a night killable treestump? As far as I can tell, treestumps cannot be killed). However, did he just flake in this game, or was it sitewide? If its sitewide I couldn't hold it against him. Also, as of this point(pg. 13) I see no reason to lynch Budja and as I look at the most current votecount I would say that all of my scumreads are currently on his wagon. I am fencesitting on Neto.

Vote: Josh Lyman

He's taking the cake so far, but if need be BloodCovenant> Budja.

I need a break. Does anyone have questions for me?