Newbie 893 - Newbieland! (GAME OVER)

[Honest Abel]

Also, can someone please explain to me the purpose of "claiming"? Chau said it would be an appropriate time for Pom to claim, as if saying "wait guys, I'm town" is really going to make a difference. What dynamics am I missing here?

[RayFrost]

Claiming gives opportunities to avoid lynching a power role.

For example...

Pom claims cop, we go "okay" and don't lynch pom unless we get a counter claim or something similar.

We then don't lynch a townie.

In games that are flavor-heavy, etc, claims serve a far more expansive purpose.

[Honest Abel]

Ah, brilliant, thanks. That's one of the things I couldn't really get a grasp on reading previous games. So as vanilla townie, we should be thinking "This is a risk we can be somewhat comfortable taking"? Also, what if the person is a doctor? Would they honestly claim that, or would they say they are a townie just to avoid being made a mafia target?

Another thing, claiming vanilla townie could be a safety move because we know there will be no counter-claims, right?

[RayFrost]

VT is a common scum claim, yes.

To be honest, there are threads in mafia discussion where people say that you should lynch the person you've run up regardless of their claim.

I'm not one to support a measure

that

extreme, but a vanilla townie claim usually does nothing to prevent a lynch.

[ThetaSigma]

not much to say at the moment, in the middle of a meaty peer-reviewed journal article, but I do have this to say:

Unvote

.

[chauchaudotcom]

So a reread didn't help much. But I did note one thing. Jarc is very hesitant to make any kind of commitment to a vote or stance.

For the record vanilla townies should always claim townie if forced to claim. There is rarely a case when it is beneficial for townies to lie about their roles (pretend to be cop or doc) because there is a chance they may accidentally out the real doc or cop if there is one.

That being said I have some questions...

Stating theories is scumhunting. It's not all brain work.

I don't quite understand what you were trying to say here in terms of quoting me. Can you explain a bit more?

Could I get a clear concise case on me rather than "She seems scummier than Ray", or "She's not doing anything"? I don't know RayFrost's alignment, but it seems to be a false dichotomy.

Not sure about others but my case was mainly because you did little to no scum hunting despite all your talk about it. Most of your posts were about game mechanics versus the actual game itself. And your answer to my question was a little too casual (seemed as if you were trying to fly under the radar). Also, I wanted to evaluate the bandwagon as well.

What can I say, I post when I can. I can't help it if I can't post more than one or two times a day.

Fair enough. It's my fault really. I am rather impatient sometimes.

[quoe="Riza"]Anyway, Honest Abel's posts seem much less suspicious to me now. His posts are logical. I believe he was the first to vote for Pom because of her small amount of scumhunting? [/quote]

I believe I was the first to point out Pom was not scumhunting. I may not have voted until after but one cannot deny I was the first to question Pom on her activity level. Just getting that out there since that seems like your main reason to clear Abel so quickly.

We know little about Hetemens. How do we know he's not scum?

We don't. But it's too early to prod. =( I tried.

So it's the exact opposite ; I'm not ready to lynch. Also note that I said that thinking that you were already L-1, but you are now so I guess the rest of my comment is still valid.

Why were you prepared to L-1 Pom but not prepared to lynch her? To L-1 her puts her in a position to be lynched. You already claimed you were ready to do so had someone else not done it prior.

Also, after I pointed out that it was not L-1 but L-2, you still didn't place her on L-1 like you claimed you would. Why is that?

not much to say at the moment, in the middle of a meaty peer-reviewed journal article, but I do have this to say:

Reason for your unvote?

[ThetaSigma]

I need to re-read and re-evaluate everyone and everything.
Also reanalyze Frost's attitude vs it being scummy. I don't think it is, and my reasoning, well, I don't agree with my own reasoning from when I cast the vote, at this point.

Tomorrow, I will re-read, and analyze and post lots of meaningless drivel.

[Honest Abel]

Chau, maybe if my only point was that she wasn't scumhunting, but I also pointed out that she was clearly trying to placate everyone which is what really set it off for me. Of course, saying "Scumhunt away!" or whatever she said was an obnoxiously anti-town sentiment, as well (too obnoxious for a mafia to say it? I'm not convinced yet). Regardless, I still currently feel like my vote was in the right place and it comforts me a little to know that someone agrees with me still despite others unvoting.

[Honest Abel]

Reading her posts again, this seemed mighty suspicious sounding:

So

we, the town

, look for signs of it- the scummy behavior.

Why do you have to flavor your explanations, which should be unbiased, with buddying? You also refer to the mafia in the second-person throughout the whole post: a distancing tactic. In my opinion, it seems like you're trying a bit too hard with your presentation. You also posted a list of scumtells with sarcastic explanations, which helps us none. I think RayFrost was the victim of massive doses of unnoticed sarcasm in that thread, which could explain why he somewhat agreed with it being posted here, haha.

Anyway, just some more observation of Pom for others to consider. I'll try to look at others' posts and see what I can pick out, but I'm certainly leaving my vote on Pom.

By the way, please link me to the location where it says SEs and ICs are

forbidden

from spreading misinformation about the game in newbie games. We shouldn't just trust you on things like that, especially since there's a possibility that the mafia consists of two experienced players.

[RayFrost]

I did notice the massive amount of sarcasm...

[RayFrost]

Laws of the IC and SE players

[JarcLovesCinn]

So it's the exact opposite ; I'm not ready to lynch. Also note that I said that thinking that you were already L-1, but you are now so I guess the rest of my comment is still valid.

Why were you prepared to L-1 Pom but not prepared to lynch her? To L-1 her puts her in a position to be lynched. You already claimed you were ready to do so had someone else not done it prior.

You're getting it wrong, I was under the impression that my vote would have L-1'd her back on page 5, I though she was in deep enough **** to go from L-2 to L-1 so I was "okay" with the L-2 thinking there no way she'd get 2 quick votes, which would be easy scumtell (a la vapor).

I was just answering her comment where she said that I'm hesitant, where I answered that, yes, I am hesitant, but that it's a good thing for her cuz I COULD have L-1 and then vapor came in with another vote.

I wanted to AVOID a L-1, I never was 'prepared' to L-1 her.

(To make things super clear, back on page 5 I though that if I had voted for for her, she'd be gone now due to vapors vote, but alas I can't count aparently.)

[chauchaudotcom]

Chau, maybe if my only point was that she wasn't scumhunting, but I also pointed out that she was clearly trying to placate everyone which is what really set it off for me. Of course, saying "Scumhunt away!" or whatever she said was an obnoxiously anti-town sentiment, as well (too obnoxious for a mafia to say it? I'm not convinced yet).

Not sure why you directed this at me. If it's because of what I said to Riza she was only talking about the little scumhunting point, hence that's all I was focusing on.

Also, Pom's not off the table for me yet, in fact she's still my #1. The only reason I unvoted was because I didn't want to leave her in a position to be hammered before I got my thoughts together. Plus, scum or not there's a high chance someone on her bandwagon is scum.

Also, your point about Pom using "we, the town" and referring to mafia as third person is reaching a bit. Both townies and scum do this. It's a null tell.

Frost, I'm curious to hear your position on everything so far. You're rather quiet.

Hmm...I see what you mean Jarc. I'll cede that point. But I am still not fond of your indecisiveness because it's too easy of a trait for scum to hide behind.

Now we can prod Het yes?

[Honest Abel]

Not sure why you directed this at me.

Um, because I was replying to your post? You implied to Riza that his only reason for clearing me was because I said Pom wasn't scumhunting, so I needed to point out that that wasn't my main motivation. It's nothing to get defensive over, I was just noting that we had different motivations and that I wasn't just stealing yours, as you attempted to claim.

Also, your point about Pom using "we, the town" and referring to mafia as third person is reaching a bit. Both townies and scum do this. It's a null tell.

Maybe your experience suggests this is a null tell, but I don't believe it is and I'm not going to forget about it just because you told me to. I know people put a lot of thought into exactly how they word their posts, so doing something like this seemed kind of suspicious in a game where posters know their exact connotation will be scrutinized.

Also, I don't get why people are calling me "Honest." Honest is an adjective, Abel is a name. As is with most epithets.

[chauchaudotcom]

You implied to Riza that his only reason for clearing me was because I said Pom wasn't scumhunting, so I needed to point out that that wasn't my main motivation.

Yes because that was the only part Riza mentioned in her post. You do note that afterwards I asked Riza to explain whether that was the

only

reason she cleared you right? And I'm not sure how you thought I was getting defensive about it since there was nothing to be defensive about.

Plus it was in no way intended as an accusation against you (the whole stealing idea bit). One of Riza's explained reasons for clearing you was because you were the first to vote Pom for little scum hunting. I wanted Riza to explain how she came to that conclusion more seeing how the discussion of little scum hunting started long before the vote. It was more of a way to analyze Riza. But any analysis of her answer at this point will be useless given all the talk we've done already.

As per the null tell talk. Take it as you will.

People probably call you Honest because it's the first part of your screen name so it's what they naturally pops up in our heads.

[Vaporeonage]

I dont know what to think, really. I guess I'll have to read some more and gather

So for now,

Unvote

unless I find anyone more suspicious than Pom

[JarcLovesCinn]

Did our comments alone make you unvote? First you vote for her with weak reasoning, then you unvote suddenly because we question your vote? I have nothing against someones vote as long as there's some thought put into it. You don't seem too know or be interested in what's going. I don't enjoy the fact that you take your decisions without giving imput on why you're doing so, it makes me feel like you're distancing yourself from us.

vote:Vaporeonage

Why exactly did you unvote Pom? She doesn't seem suspicious anymore? You just pop in and pop out and barely say anything, share what you think is going on so far, especially when voting.

[Pomegranate]

Ah, brilliant, thanks. That's one of the things I couldn't really get a grasp on reading previous games. So as vanilla townie, we should be thinking "This is a risk we can be somewhat comfortable taking"? Also, what if the person is a doctor? Would they honestly claim that, or would they say they are a townie just to avoid being made a mafia target?

Another thing, claiming vanilla townie could be a safety move because we know there will be no counter-claims, right?

Usually, when someone claim VT, he/she is lynched. That's one reason why a doc wouldn't claim VT to avoid being lynched. Another is later in the game, if someone backtracks on a claim, saying that though he backtracked on a claim earlier, that he was actually a doc, not a VT, he might be lynched for lying, unless it's proven that he's telling the truth.

Stating theories is scumhunting. It's not all brain work.

I don't quite understand what you were trying to say here in terms of quoting me. Can you explain a bit more?

Could I get a clear concise case on me rather than "She seems scummier than Ray", or "She's not doing anything"? I don't know RayFrost's alignment, but it seems to be a false dichotomy.

Not sure about others but my case was mainly because you did little to no scum hunting despite all your talk about it. Most of your posts were about game mechanics versus the actual game itself. And your answer to my question was a little too casual (seemed as if you were trying to fly under the radar). Also, I wanted to evaluate the bandwagon as well.

Well, I think Theta has done a bit more scumhunting since, but I meant that the game of Mafia can't be boiled down to a math equation, and that usually there is a sense of gut in scumhunting.

I see. Also, the reason I answered like that was because I hate it when players make ling, winded promises to scumhunt, and analyze every single sentance of every single player, and never do. That's why I gave a simple answer, to show that I was simply going to try my best to scumhunt. I think that also answers this post:

Of course, saying "Scumhunt away!" or whatever she said was an obnoxiously anti-town sentiment, as well (too obnoxious for a mafia to say it? I'm not convinced yet).

Reading her posts again, this seemed mighty suspicious sounding:

So

we, the town

, look for signs of it- the scummy behavior.

Why do you have to flavor your explanations, which should be unbiased, with buddying? You also refer to the mafia in the second-person throughout the whole post: a distancing tactic. In my opinion, it seems like you're trying a bit too hard with your presentation. You also posted a list of scumtells with sarcastic explanations, which helps us none. I think RayFrost was the victim of massive doses of unnoticed sarcasm in that thread, which could explain why he somewhat agreed with it being posted here, haha.

I've seen this argument many times, and it is worthless. I'm sure that had I just written "we" I would have been accused of the same thing, while if I had used the term "the town", I would have been accused of making a Freudian slip by referring to the town as a group separate from my own (by seemingly not including myself in the town). It's a no-win situation, and the argument holds no water, in my opinion.

[xRECKONERx]

Hetemens has been prodded.

[chauchaudotcom]

Well, I think Theta has done a bit more scumhunting since, but I meant that the game of Mafia can't be boiled down to a math equation, and that usually there is a sense of gut in scumhunting.

Yes but my question was why is this scummy?

Fair enough about the short answer. But my point about you not scum hunting still stands.

Who's your top two suspects right now pom?

[chauchaudotcom]

I dont know what to think, really. I guess I'll have to read some more and gather

So for now, Unvote unless I find anyone more suspicious than Pom

While your re-reading care to answer my question about why you placed Pom at L-1 in post 138.

[Pomegranate]

Well, I think Theta has done a bit more scumhunting since, but I meant that the game of Mafia can't be boiled down to a math equation, and that usually there is a sense of gut in scumhunting.

Yes but my question was why is this scummy?

Fair enough about the short answer. But my point about you not scum hunting still stands.

Who's your top two suspects right now pom?

Well, it's scummy to use the fact that it's hard for you to scumhunt as an excuse, which he(/she) seemed to be doing.

Vapor and JLC. Hetemens is probably next, but I can't tell if he's lurking newbie scum, or lurking newbie town.

[ThetaSigma]

Well, it's scummy to use the fact that it's hard for you to scumhunt as an excuse, which he(/she) seemed to be doing.

My excuse wasn't that I find it hard to scumhunt. Rather, I wasn't even trying to make excuses. I merely stated that I prefer to analyze facts than to make wild stabs in the dark and hope that I guess correctly. Even more improperly, you voted this after quoting my explanation that I am -shy- and don't let my emotions out all that well -- this has nothing to do with scumhunting.

By the way, I'm still using mass amounts of analysis, not guesswork, and you seem to think my analytical method is satisfactory. If you want to fault me for being a shy noob, knock yourself out. I'll 'improve' in your definition of 'theory' (generally defined as 'educated conjecture', which you have already misdefined as 'gut feeling', which is more of a hunch than a theory -- check your vocabulary or I will pick it to pieces) as I become more comfortable with the game in general.

I dont know what to think, really. I guess I'll have to read some more and gather

So for now, Unvote unless I find anyone more suspicious than Pom

Can I call you Waffles?
This sounds significantly like my unvote ('OMG I'm confused now!') but not for the same reason -- Why unvote Pom if she's still the one most suspicious to you? If it's to back down from the possibility of an accidental or quicklynch, why not say so? what's up here?

---------

Quite important stuff down here:

I've been thinking of this all day. and I'm going to post it now, because my mind is all awash with just why:

V/LA until early next week.

This is

limited posting

-- I will probably be able to keep up with reading. However, I realized today that my stress level is so high I need to back off from hobbies to focus on schoolwork, as most of my mental power is taken up worrying about having my wisdom teeth out on Friday afternoon. And I'll be on painkillers at least over the weekend and I don't really think I should be making drugged-up posts on here. At least, no big important ones. I expect to be back up and mentally running (circles around everyone ) by Tuesday, if not slightly earlier. It depends on how cranky I am from not smoking and how pained I am as well.

[Pomegranate]

Well, it's scummy to use the fact that it's hard for you to scumhunt as an excuse, which he(/she) seemed to be doing.

My excuse wasn't that I find it hard to scumhunt. Rather, I wasn't even trying to make excuses. I merely stated that I prefer to analyze facts than to make wild stabs in the dark and hope that I guess correctly. Even more improperly, you voted this after quoting my explanation that I am -shy- and don't let my emotions out all that well -- this has nothing to do with scumhunting.

By the way, I'm still using mass amounts of analysis, not guesswork, and you seem to think my analytical method is satisfactory. If you want to fault me for being a shy noob, knock yourself out. I'll 'improve' in your definition of 'theory' (generally defined as 'educated conjecture', which you have already misdefined as 'gut feeling', which is more of a hunch than a theory -- check your vocabulary or I will pick it to pieces) as I become more comfortable with the game in general.

The vote on you came after your "I'm hiding behind my brain" post. I have unvoted since, and even said that I found your scumhunting to be fine IMO. The quote you took was a bit out of context- I only posted that recently because chauchau asked me about my previous vote.

[Honest Abel]

I've seen this argument many times, and it is worthless. I'm sure that had I just written "we" I would have been accused of the same thing, while if I had used the term "the town", I would have been accused of making a Freudian slip by referring to the town as a group separate from my own (by seemingly not including myself in the town).

If you had said "we," I would have thought the same thing to a lesser degree, yes. If you had said "the town," I would have thought your explanation was unbiased. Referring to things in the third person all around is the only way to appear unbiased. First person shows alignment, second person shows distancing. Third person is objective. Saying "we, the town" strikes me as attempting to be objective

while

attempting to align yourself with the town, which is what struck me as fishy. Perhaps I'm being too ardent about this, but seeing as your past behavior still leaves you as my first suspect, I figured I have a little room to explore in which direction to take my analyses.