Open 193 - Friends and Enemies: It's over!

[Head_Honcho]

Votecount!

SerialClergyman(1): charlatan
PorkchopExpress(2): Sando, Ojanen
VP Baltar(1): Scien
Charlatan(4): SerialClergyman, Zorblag, Albert B. Rampage, VP Baltar
Debonair Danny DiPietro(3): Amished, Vi, PorkchopExpress
Amished(1): Debonair Danny DiPietro

With 12 alive it's 7 to lynch.

[Amished]

@Vi: I liked half of Char's initial point against SC (in ISO 24). The time between posts is weak and I understand not being able to get to a computer on either side; however the point about the switch of stance between 176 and 187 on VP is a good one (in my opinion) and the giving himself {SC} a way to back out of VP suspicion all looks pretty good.

I think the rest of Char's point (in 24) is him trying to convince the rest of us that he's found scum by pulling what he sees has scum motivation behind it; but it mostly looks like confirmation bias which I haven't seen scum have all that often.

Unfortunately for me; I keep flipflopping on if I think SC is scum or not. For a bit he's looking good, then he's not as much. What really sucks is that out of my {SC/ABR} pair; they're both on Charlatan which doesn't exactly help me if I think that one of the two are scum and I have to figure out which is what alignment on that part of the puzzle.

The more I try to understand ABR; the more I think he's town though. Namely trying to provoke my attack on several occasions; though he

is

ABR...

[Sando]

You seem to be a little preoccupied with side issues at the moment and I’m starting to get scummy vibes from it. Especially since you’ve barely spoken about the ABR/VP discussion amount.

While you're right, I didn't comment on the ABR/VP discussion (I thought it was a terrible argument, and it took me most of the argument to realise they weren't joking) it's over. You're the side issue I've been preoccupied with, and that was because you weren't posting, and then your response was completely inadequate.

@SC: It's been made clear that you haven't stated that Sando is town this game, but what is your read on him?

This is pretty funny, people like VPB are getting upset at Serial for saying I was town (which he didn't) and now you want to force him to say it.

Serial, answer my damn question you blaggard.

Zorblag, you're right, the porkchop things is very old, but that's mainly because he didn't respond to it, or anything for that matter. My vote on him is fairly meaningless now, I felt it wasn't until he finally answered my fairly simple question. His hostility in answering what is a fairly simple and innocuous question makes me think scum, but there are better prospects for today. Hence my vote will change at the bottom.

Saying that I haven't been involved is pretty harsh I feel though, up until now I think I've been one of the most involved people, and it's only because of long international travel and jetlag/catching up with people that has stopped me, and that's only in the last 4 days.

Charlatan, no, it's not as important, especially now he's at least given a semi-decent response. But I'm not going to ignore something just because he doesn't respond for a long time. He wasn't and still isn't the person I found most scummy, but I wanted to see his reaction and justification. It sucks and I think he gets scumpoints for it, so I think it was worthwhile. The person that I've wanted to vote over him has been receiving enough pressure without me, so I don't think anything was lost by my vote on porkchopexpress.

Personally, I'm reasonably happy with Serial as town at this point. Ojanen's lack of decisiveness paints her as scum from a meta point of view.

The only thing that had me worried about my scumread on Charlatan was the 'staged' part that I brought up before. Re-reading, I think that less likely. I think Charlatan's case on Serial is quite weak, I think he's latched on to some things (notably VPB's 'slip' about LAL) that really aren't notable. In general I think he's being defensive while throwing in token scumhunting that strikes me as poorly thought at and reasoned. Charlatan is obviously intelligent and well reasoned, his cases/attacks don't strike me as intelligent and well reasoned, only his defences.

Unvote, Vote: Charlatan

[Amished]

@Sando: If he {Charlatan} can intelligently defend himself (therefore I'm assuming that he's defending himself adequately if it's an intelligent defense), why does that make him scum?

[charlatan]

The person that I've wanted to vote over him has been receiving enough pressure without me, so I don't think anything was lost by my vote on porkchopexpress.

Judging by your end of post vote, that's me, yeah? If so, you say you've wanted to vote me -- at which point in the day did that desire come about?

I think Charlatan's case on Serial is quite weak, I think he's latched on to some things (notably VPB's 'slip' about LAL) that really aren't notable.

I think saying that I latched onto the LAL thing is a little bit of a mischaracterization, especially as I readily admitted to having misread that when corrected, but I am hardly surprised at people piling on at this point.

Charlatan is obviously intelligent and well reasoned, his cases/attacks don't strike me as intelligent and well reasoned, only his defences.

It's interesting that you find my defense "intelligent and well reasoned" but still want to lynch me. Do I misunderstand you?

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Calling the team is a "bad idea" for this setup cause technically you can be seeing the Mason grouping connections rather than the Mafia connections (or so what I thought ABR was worried about or whatever). Also, they're all individually scummy; while also having the potential to be together. I haven't looked too hard into scum-type interactions where they have to distance a bit, etc.. so that's an admitted "weak" point in my "team" calling.

I'm not blind because if I know that there's mason pairings, I can discern which of the two types of connections I'm seeing; pro-town or anti-town.

Well you got why ABR recommended against doing it, but you failed to make the next logical jump. If you're talking about plausible player connections, barring guessing the scumteam completely right you have provided the scumteam with plausible mason connections which is information they have to otherwise figure out if someone like you doesn't just post it.

And if you're clever enough to figure out what sort of connections they are, then maybe that's something you should've been clever enough to do it in your head or on paper until you had some confirmed information to verify that you are in fact trying to nail the scum team and not just outing the masons.

As town it's plain not smart, as scum it could be trying to bolster arguments. Plus, you should be smart enough not to do something so foolish. Either way I don't like it.

[Scien]

Mod... please replace me

I'm sorry guys... I know this is crappy, but this is also the first time I have had to replace.

My work manditorally moved me to a new position and as a result pushed up all my deadlines... it was completely unforeseeable to me before it happened. Otherwise I would not have started this game.

In the near future I will be very busy with my current project for a week... then have no idea the 'atmosphere' of my new team, and know not whether I will have the opportunity to play as often as I have in the past.

Sorry it took me so long to do this... I thought I would be able to continue this game, but with Friday getting closer, I just don't see myself getting more free time.

Sorry again, and thanks for the understanding.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Re: meta - Meta, Town or otherwise, is not a direct reason for my vote on you; and I'm fairly positive I made that clear in my previous post. I know you are capable of lurking through a game and getting away with it. Needlessly to say, I'm not interested in allowing that - regardless of whether that's your habit.

The two quotes I posted are both false. Your alignment is

my

our business; if you're not going to open yourself up to allow a read, the problem is most certainly on your end. Further, I would rather have someone who contributes versus a lurking Townie; anyone who has been in a game where someone gets Cop-investigated and then drops off the page entirely can relate.

It continues to sound to me like you're more concerned with my activity level that with my alignment when you say things like, "I know you can lurk a game away and I won't allow it" and "I would rather have someone who contributes even over a cop confirmed town lurker". Personally I think those positions are nonsense, I try not to be the activity police. I'm concerned with one thing, winning and you do that from correct reads and not activity checks.

The level of scumhunting between now and when SC accused you in that other game is different. Your first (and basically only) public point after being told to produce content was to attack your attacker. Surely that's not the only noteworthy, voteworthy thing that has gone on up to this point?

I agree, sadly there's not been anyone as blatently scummy in this game as there was in the last game. That usually makes things much easier.

Re: Replying to things - You were well within your ability to reply to Sando's post, but you claim it wasn't your responsibility until 1) I mentioned it 2) while posting toward you. Penn and Teller disapprove.

Not really, I have only so much time to devote to the game (especially with the forum on the fritz making everything take longer), I was available two nights ago and posted as much as I could to things I had deemed priority. Then I didn't get a chance until the next day when I responded to you in agreement with what you had noted because it didn't make sense to disregard your comment and then bring up Sando's comment independently.

[SerialClergyman]

4am, quick post:

sando - I am not - if you search in iso you'll see I answered that to VP earlier. I've admended my D1 playstyle back to doing a mix of both and have been for a little while now.

@whoever asked: I don't have much of a read on sando at all right now. I feel he hasn't really gotten into the swing of the game yet.

@Ojanen - what sando said. One of the few ways I can tell you're scum is that you are less reckless. Either way you make well constructed arguments which are well-researched, but as scum you tend to hold off on your vote for a long time and add to the discussion without leading the discussion. Your lack of vote this game worries me.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

No, lurkers you can't get a read on hurt games. If you can get a good read on a lurker then there is no need to care about their activity status.

Well, I don't think anyone is reading you as town atm, so....

Nonsense, there's certainly several individuals who know I'm town.

In Mafia of Order I had all of three posts in the first days of the game and the VPB was unimpressed with the content I eventually generated.

In fairness, that was the first time I saw "trend analysis" wasn't it? You have to admit that is a bit strange and cryptic. It threw me off.

Chief, I'm not trying to pick on you when that game comes up, I can certainly understand why I got lynched that time. I couldn't self-meta the trend analysis because the other games with it were ongoing and we'd just come out of M98, made me an easy and obvious suspect. It's the pressure right now that's annoying because at this point there's a very obvious meta that the people pressuring me should recognize as just that, but instead are somehow convinced that this game is just enough different somehow that makes that read irrelevant.

you can nitpick if you like but this is a fairly established and current (town) meta for me in this sort of game.

What does "this sort of game" mean?

I think the meta should be well established with all of that. Now that doesn’t mean I couldn’t be intentionally playing against meta (I’m not but whatever), but to suggest that my behavior in this game equates to my scum meta is just fallacious given recent history.

Ok, what do you think is the cause of your recently atrocious D1 play?

This sort of game is a game with players I generally respect and don't need to be herded like sheep. If I notice myself in an all sheep game (say a newbie game with no other IC and rubbish SEs or a mini game with no one I know in the game) then I get immediately aggressive pushing whatever looks like even a half decent argument so that the game has something to work off of. But I don't enjoy doing that and I don't think I'm terribly effective at actually hunting scum while I'm doing that, so when I can avoid doing that I do so. By day two however things have happened, people are almost invariably dead with connections that can be made and I can start making reasoned, rational arguments. So in a game that I don't think needs me producing outstanding content, I tend to lurk and just hope for it to be day two already.

[VP Baltar]

Sorry to see you go Scien. Hope work gets better.

After DDD's last set of answers, I think I'm willing to give him another day and see how things go. He is right that he has had a propensity to lurk as town day 1 as of late. Even though I don't think his scumhunting thus far is that great, I certainly could see it just as a bad case combined with his strategy of "close my eyes and wait for day two", whereas charlatan I am definitely not seeing that much worth redeeming.

I think DDD is going to make himself more clear as the game goes on, but charlatan is just going to remain one big question mark for me until he's dealt with...so unless something drastic happens, my vote is p. much set.

[Ojanen]

@Porkchop, why DDD over charlatan?
@Serial, I'm quite aware of that meta, we have in fact close to discussed it, and thus totally gleeful to mess it up for you a little. (Not having felt getting a good grip on the game so far is genuine though, as is my start-a-game-effectively inexploredness [<=wow, that's probably not English but yeah].)
(200 pages to go before I'll be back to post.)

[Head_Honcho]

Seeking replacement for Scien

[Ojanen]

After DDD's last set of answers, I think I'm willing to give him another day and see how things go. He is right that he has had a propensity to lurk as town day 1 as of late. Even though I don't think his scumhunting thus far is that great, I certainly could see it just as a bad case combined with his strategy of "close my eyes and wait for day two", whereas charlatan I am definitely not seeing that much worth redeeming.
I think DDD is going to make himself more clear as the game goes on, but charlatan is just going to remain one big question mark for me until he's dealt with...so unless something drastic happens, my vote is p. much set.

I don't particularly like this post however regards to charlatan. Compare it with what VP has said in his iso about charlatan and you might see why I get that feel.

[charlatan]

Sorry to hear that Scien.

Even though I don't think his scumhunting thus far is that great, I certainly could see it just as a bad case combined with his strategy of "close my eyes and wait for day two", whereas charlatan I am definitely not seeing that much worth redeeming.

I think DDD is going to make himself more clear as the game goes on, but charlatan is just going to remain one big question mark for me until he's dealt with...so unless something drastic happens, my vote is p. much set.

This is a particularly odd post. On one hand, you refer to me as irredeemable, but on the other want to park your vote because I am "one big question mark". I don't really see how it can be both at once, to be honest. Also, can you elaborate on how being a question mark = necessary to lynch?

I particularly liked the assumption that no reads on me would ever become clearer in upcoming days. How do you figure?

---

I will say that, self-preservation aside, I am not sure where the heart of the DDD case lies. His play is unhelpful and anti-town, and it's suspicious that his first contribution was to vote his attacker, but more than anything it feels like activity policing. That's a pretty great way to run up a lynch on a townie, especially as it provides its own excuse for the "mistaken" attack after the fact.

[VP Baltar]

This is a particularly odd post. On one hand, you refer to me as irredeemable, but on the other want to park your vote because I am "one big question mark". I don't really see how it can be both at once, to be honest. Also, can you elaborate on how being a question mark = necessary to lynch?

I don't understnad the distinction you are trying to make here, at all. You have acted significantly scummy and until you are dead, those doubts about your alignment would be there.

You haven't answered well in terms of your thoughts on ABR or myself, and your "case" on SC leaves more than a little to be desired.

tl,dr: diescumdie

I particularly liked the assumption that no reads on me would ever become clearer in upcoming days. How do you figure?

You've had your chance to explain your thought process and that explanation has been convoluted at best. Future days will not change what you've explained thus far, only make people forget about it.

[Head_Honcho]

xRECKONERx replaces Scien. Hurray! Your predecessor's vote will remain until you change it.

Votecount:

SerialClergyman(1): charlatan
PorkchopExpress(1): Ojanen
VP Baltar(1): xRECKONERx
charlatan(5): SerialClergyman, Zorblag, Albert B. Rampage, VP Baltar, Sando
Debonair Danny DiPietro(3): Amished, Vi, PorkchopExpress
Amished(1): Debonair Danny DiPietro

With 12 alive it's 7 to lynch.

[xRECKONERx]

Hey guys! Good to be here.

VP/Amish... <3

I think I've played with SC and DDD. Everyone else is a new face. So, I'll give my thoughts on the re-read as I have them. Pretty interesting read so far.

Regarding my predecessor, all I could think during my re-read was... holy shit, Scien is pressuring Vi on quite possibly the dumbest thing ever. I don't think it was as big of a deal as people made it out to be (and Scien did a good job of defending himself, IMO)... but it's like... why even bring it up in the first place?

I don't like Zorblag's 114. He comes in, doesn't really take a definitive stance either way regarding Vi and Scien, then proceeds to do the safe thing and vote for someone who has been inactive.

Vi's 118 vote of Sando made me scratch my head since she hadn't even mentioned him until this post, and all she does is ask him a question. Seems like someone would want to wait for a response before just voting.

SC's vote on VPB is fail. Also, call it gut, but VP and ABR's back and forth feels like bussing. I dunno.

Vi explaining that Sando-vote was based on active lurking makes a little more sense.


PS, Troll Priest FTW. Or my Tauren Warrior.

And, I kinda agree with ABR that bandwagons in general are good. I don't know if I'd say ANY bandwagon is good, but most of them can provide good info.


charlatan is my strongest town read.

SC is one of my only scum reads.

Vote: SC

Done with p8, need to take a break, be back to finish up soon.

[xRECKONERx]

Whoooa, looking at that vote count after posting this post is odd... my strongest town read has the most votes, and my strongest scum read is only being voted for by my strongest town read. Uh-oh. Seems like some real shit's gonna happen in the next 8 pages.

[charlatan]

Welcome, RECKONER! I read a game or two before with you in them, so I'm glad to see you here.

I don't understnad the distinction you are trying to make here, at all. You have acted significantly scummy and until you are dead, those doubts about your alignment would be there.

That makes a little more sense to me. The reason I asked is because that post (and your most recent) makes it sound like you have very little doubt about my alignment at all, where "big question mark" suggests less certainty. It may just be the choice of words throwing me off.

You haven't answered well in terms of your thoughts on ABR or myself, and your "case" on SC leaves more than a little to be desired.

So essentially we're still harping on page 5 + you don't like my SC vote. Is that fair to say? If you feel you've been clear then I apologize (I hate having to repeat myself) but in all likelihood it will be very important tomorrow that everyone is clear.

You've had your chance to explain your thought process and that explanation has been convoluted at best. Future days will not change what you've explained thus far, only make people forget about it.

Yeah? Is it just my play in Day 1 of this game that has convinced you that in future days, situations, and votes I will be equally problematic for you, or in general do you think I'm always "convoluted at best"? Did you feel the same way when I was scum last game? Or, if you remember that far back, our first game together (Cowboy Bebop), when you were scum and I was town?

Whoooa, looking at that vote count after posting this post is odd... my strongest town read has the most votes, and my strongest scum read is only being voted for by my strongest town read. Uh-oh. Seems like some real shit's gonna happen in the next 8 pages.

Yes, it's going to be very interesting.

[xRECKONERx]

Alright guys -

I gotta head into work. I get off in 5 hours, sooo, when I get back I'll try to get something up... but I'm going to the bar tonight, so really it's a crapshoot. Either tonight or tomorrow afternoon, I'll finish catching up, I promise.

[Amished]

Unvote
Vote: xRECKONERx

Gentlemen, we have scum <3

[charlatan]

Gentlemen, we have scum <3

I'd be interested in hearing what in that post led you to this conclusion.

[VP Baltar]

Yeah? Is it just my play in Day 1 of this game that has convinced you that in future days, situations, and votes I will be equally problematic for you, or in general do you think I'm always "convoluted at best"? Did you feel the same way when I was scum last game? Or, if you remember that far back, our first game together (Cowboy Bebop), when you were scum and I was town?

No, actually I think you are super articulate and I really like reading your posts. My take on it is that you are scum who was hit with a barrage of pressure over your stance toward ABR and me, and when asked to explain those stances in detail you were forced to make up what you could to make it sound good. Personally, I don't find your replies sufficient with what your claimed stance on the matter is (that both ABR and I are both high on your suspect list).

I'm not saying I don't understand what you are saying in regards to that issue, because I do. I'm simply saying I don't believe what you are saying.

Which sort of brings me to my other point about the "big question mark". If you have this issue that I really don't believe you on and take to be scummy, no amount of days passing and other events happening is going to change this particular issue. You have already spoken on it and I didn't like your replies. Now, we could let you live and other stuff would happen and you'd post and people would probably forget all about your scumminess here, but none of that resolves the actual issue. It's still there and your responses are still scummy.

Knowing your alignment, however, does alleviate "the big question mark". In other words, a bird in hand is worth more than two in the bush.

So essentially we're still harping on page 5 + you don't like my SC vote. Is that fair to say? If you feel you've been clear then I apologize (I hate having to repeat myself) but in all likelihood it will be very important tomorrow that everyone is clear.

I'd say so, sure. But it doesn't really matter how many pages have passed, now does it?

Gentlemen, we have scum <3

Saw that coming. I still don't know if I'm sold on that tell though. You may have seen it work, but I haven't yet.

[Amished]

You saw Jazzmyn do it as scum. I know that you saw the only time it failed and I went back to see why I went wrong; and I know what happened. I was just overeager and didn't read it comprehensively.