Newbie 869 - Game over

[jee]

@jee, at this point I'd like to hear your take on the state of the game; you pretty much have to be the doctor so I'd like to see you take an active role in leading the discussion as you're the one we know we can trust.

Hmmmm, I think that we are in a pretty good state now that we have active players. Out of the 5 we have left, I think we need to pick out of Deer, Pulidar, and Zorb.

Zorblag, although SensFan was very scummy to me, you have helped change my opinion on him because of the very town posts.

Pulidar, I was very set on Mr.Finch being mafia, but it was mostly coming to me later as the game went on, not so much at the beginning. Him not voting on Day 2 kind of pushed me to attack him. But now I'm not so sure. Pulidar is doing a good job as a replacement.

In post 448, I mentioned new ideas on scumminess that I have been having for a while. That was my suspicion for Deer has been coming back on Day 3. I didn't like his early game play and got me very suspicious of him. I would have been happy to attack him on Day 3 except for his hammer vote on Elli Day 2. That situation pulled me away from him and more toward Mr.Finch. But now that I think about it, I feel a hammer vote on a scum partner is a very good way to buss/distance a them. I however do not have much more of a case on him besides the things that have already been mentioned by others.

[Zorblag]

@Nachomamma8, I've played with SensFan before. In particular SensFan was one of the ICs for my first newbie game. We were the scum team together. I don't care for his play much at all on a personal level (he's the only person that I can think of who I've voted for out of irritation in my entire tenure here and that was in spite of the fact that he was my scum partner at the time) but he does get results and he knows what he's doing. He comes across as an arrogant, self-righteous jerk and I think that's it's entirely intentional much of the time.

In this game he seems to have been trying to use his innate antagonism as a screen for his cop role. If he had managed to get Ellibereth lynched on sheer personality day two without resorting to his claim it would have been something; he came close enough. His cases outside beyond that have mostly been garbage though I wouldn't be surprised if he believed his day one read on DarkLightA. When he thinks he's right he believes it with conviction.

I think that SensFan got us into a position where we should be able to win this game. I'm glad that he did it while I wasn't here as if I had been in the game with him I would have been voting for him for his tactics as of day one (though I clearly have some bias.) Outside of going for the win he hasn't done the game any favors from an IC stance but at this point I'm in no position to knock that.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[totallynotmafia]

Good luck guys! Sorry jee, probably for the best I got shot then! lol

[jee]

Hah it's cool TNM

mod, same with my double post

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Official Vote Count

Not Voting - 5 (Deer, jee, Nachomamma8, Pulindar, Zorblag)

3 to Lynch.

Deadline

is the end of Thursday, February 4.

[Deer]

Okay, I'm back guys. First off, sorry jee, guess we all make mistakes sometimes. You came off as scummy to me, I was just trying to follow my gut.

One thing I think we need to realize here is that Nacho is by no means clear just because he got doc-protected. In fact, I think because Zorb claims to have the no result, the situation is that the mafia either missed the deadline and no night actions were submitted on N2, or Zorb is lying. I'm pretty heavily leaning towards the former - I still find it hard to believe that Sens committed such a massive bus at the beginning of the game. So, to answer your question Zorb, I still am pretty sure you are the cop. We're not lynching you today, no matter what other people say. We can deal with you at LyLo if need be.

Now, that does not also necessarily mean Nacho is scum, but I've found him quite a bit more scummy than Finch/Pulindar.

1. Nacho pushed pretty hard for a Sens lynch on D2 and D3, yet immediately voted Elli once Sens claimed cop. If you felt like Sens was scum, why believe his claim without any questions or deliberation once you heard it? Seems like it could very easily be a situation where you knew your scumbuddy got caught and you had to try and save face by voting Elli.

2. Once Zorblag replaces Sens (and comes off pro-town to everybody here), Nacho's suspicion is completely gone.

Right now, I'm seeing scum in Mr Finch/Pal or Deer.

What happened there?

3. The whole Mr. Finch vote situation I found to be pretty scummy in general. I've explained that before though.

So, in short,

vote: nacho

for now, and we'll see where this takes us.

[Nachomamma8]

1. Nacho pushed pretty hard for a Sens lynch on D2 and D3, yet immediately voted Elli once Sens claimed cop. If you felt like Sens was scum, why believe his claim without any questions or deliberation once you heard it? Seems like it could very easily be a situation where you knew your scumbuddy got caught and you had to try and save face by voting Elli.

When that counterclaim came, scum was going to get lynched, whether that day, or the next. More people tended to believe Sens over Elli, and trying to divert the wagon would only waste time.

What happened there?

I really liked Zorblag's willingness to clear people, especially when the person he would be forced to clear was someone he could've easily lynched, and when that easily lynched person was a powerrole.

3. The whole Mr. Finch vote situation I found to be pretty scummy in general. I've explained that before though.

You've explained why it's weird, yes, but you haven't explained my scum motive behind it (i.e. why it's actually scummy).

@jee: As a confirmed town, it'd be greatly beneficial to us if you took the lead. That means, remaining active and questioning everything scummy you find on other people. I'd also like you to make an analysis on every player in the game and why you find them scummy, like Zorblag did in his 495.

@Zorblag: What did you think of TNM-Deer interactions Day 3?

@Deer: What's your opinion on Finch's Day 1 hammer?

@Pulindar: What did you think of your predecessor?

[jee]

@jee: As a confirmed town, it'd be greatly beneficial to us if you took the lead. That means, remaining active and questioning everything scummy you find on other people. I'd also like you to make an analysis on every player in the game and why you find them scummy, like Zorblag did in his 495.

Alright, when I get the time.

[Deer]

@Deer: What's your opinion on Finch's Day 1 hammer?

I think the hammer itself wasn't a big deal, but I do think that he overreacted quite a bit. I don't like it, but I think it can be explained as nervousness or just his general personality.

[Zorblag]

@Nachomamma8, there's not a lot that's all that interesting about the interactions between Deer and totallynotmafia on day three. Deer was a bit softer on the stance that totallynotmafia had to be town than I might like but he essentially seemed to get that. totallynotmafia spent very little time looking at Deer but we know that he was town so that wasn't anything he was trying to pull off. I don't see Deer particularly trying to force his opinions on totallynotmafia nor do I see any clear manipulation. Was there some event in particular you had in mind? If so was it in posts 453 - 456? I can see an issue there which you might be hinting at but it's not really an interaction issue in my opinion.

@Deer and Pulindar, what were your takes on totallynotmafia getting killed last night? What do you think of Nachomamma8's reaction.

So I've been thinking about what might have happened during night 2. Unlike others I'm actually not so quick to dismiss the intentional no kill on it's own. I know that I've used it as mafia to good effect in the past (Night Two in Newbie Game 749.) In particular I was using it directly after my scum partner had been lynched in order to leave my options open a bit. In that game I knew that the power roles were all dead (the cop was mislynched day one and there was no doc) so I was leaving myself an option to claim doc with a successful protection on whoever seemed best at the time if it turned out to be useful down the line. In the end I didn't go with the fake claim but the no kill left it as a possibility for me.

The problem with this game is that we didn't have any power roles down. The scum knew that there was another power role out there that they hadn't identified as well as SensFan who they had. Trying to set up a fake doc claim is problematic as there was a game losing counter-claim waiting for them if they tried. The two closest things to legitimate plans that I've been able to come up with are:

1) Trying to get one of the two power roles lynched day three (either me as the cop who had a result when they should logically have been roleblocked or the doctor on the grounds that they could be setting up a convenient fake claim for them self with a no kill coupled with the fact that the cop wasn't roleblocked.)

2) Just trying to draw the doctor out so that they'd fully know the power roles and could deal with them better in the future. They wouldn't have a reason not to roleblock SensFan there.

Both of them are riskier than I would probably use as scum as they leave the very real possibility of losing outright if SensFan hit the scum with his investigation. As it was the investigation let SensFan clear an innocent which helped to narrow things down. If the first was the case then that might explain why at least one of you was eager to lynch an un counter-claimed power role yesterday. For the second one I guess we just have to assume that the scum forgot they could roleblock or something.

The other thing that could have happened is what others have mentioned; that the scum missed the deadline altogether. It seems unlikely that any of Deer, Mr. Finch or Nachomamma8 would have done that given that all three posted at least once elsewhere on the forums during that night phase. I supposes it's possible that they forgot but that it doesn't seem all that likely. The question is I suppose one of whether it's less likely than trying one of the plans I mentioned above (or something else I haven't thought of yet.)

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Er, and of course there's also the more obvious attempt to kill Nachomamma8 and get blocked by the doctor but for some reason not roleblock SensFan. In theory that roleblock could have been used on yet another player (and given that we're running out of players that list would be totallynotmafia, Deer, Mr. Finch and I guess maybe Nachomamma8) but that seems even less reasonable than forgetting to submit the roleblock. Maybe it was absent-mindedness or not realizing how the role works?

Clearly I need to let it churn in the back of my mind some more.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Deer]

@Deer and Pulindar, what were your takes on totallynotmafia getting killed last night? What do you think of Nachomamma8's reaction.

I think he got killed because he was both cleared by you and the most obviously pro-town. TNM wasn't going to get lynched anytime soon unless he made some sort of huge scumslip, and a person like that spells trouble for the mafia. Also, I think the mafia didn't want to kill a power role because they figured they could try and get one of them (probably you) lynched today. Or, they couldn't kill one of the PRs because one of them is mafia...

Zorb, of the various scenarios you listed, which do you think is the most plausible? I can see the mafia NKing and no-blocking to basically implicate you, Zorb. But that just creates a massive amount of WIFOM that I can't even begin to wrap my head around.

[Zorblag]

@Deer, the problem is that I don't like any of the scenarios that I went over. None of them are particularly good play so far as I can tell. The risk significantly outweighs the reward for the plan to try to get one of the power roles lynched and the rest all involve a fundamental mistake or misunderstanding of how things work. Either there's something that I'm not seeing or the scum made a bad play on night two when there were obvious good plays to make as well as other bad plays that should have been more tempting (trying to kill SensFan and roleblocking hoping to hit the doc for example.)

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[jee]

At the moment we have 1 scum left. Now, from what I picked up in Newbie 843, if there is a roleblocker scum alive then their night action can only be roleblock or lynch, not both.

As we have no NK then my guess would be that the scum roleblocked Sens. We won't know until Sens returns.

This was Mr.Finch's first post after the night where there was no roleblock, Day 3. And this was even before SF posted anything about having an investigation.

Does this stick out to anyone?

[Pulindar]

Hi all, I'm sorta getting situated over here still, but I am in LA, and actully got here about 6 hours ago. I made great time which is the only reason I have time to come on tonight at all.
I am tired though, so I'll keep this short.

This was Mr.Finch's first post after the night where there was no roleblock, Day 3. And this was even before SF posted anything about having an investigation.

Does this stick out to anyone?

I would say that he's wrong Jee. After all,

If either of the first two setups are in play, and the situation occurs where the Goon is lynched first, the Roleblocker will still be able to submit both night kills and roleblocks (roleblocking is a function of the Roleblocker; night kills are a function of the scum team as a whole).

That's in red at the beginning of post 2. But I suppose the roleblocker may not have known that.

@Pulindar: What did you think of your predecessor?

I think he was an inactiver person by the end, who quit because of his inactivity. Also, reading him in this game and in a previous game, I feel that he is extremely cautious. He realizes that long days

Tend

to be better for town, and does not mind holding his vote toward later if he doesn't see an explicit reason to use it. He uses his vote to actually Lynch, rather than using it as the multi-purpose weapon it is.

@Deer and Pulindar, what were your takes on totallynotmafia getting killed last night? What do you think of Nachomamma8's reaction.

I didn't expect it, but depending on the logic it makes sense. Honestly I was concerned that even though I am a future lynch possibility the scum may have wished to lynch me to keep an unexplored view out of the game. Still, it was probably the best choice because I think it answers the fewest questions. Lynching you or Jee would have at least given us that for sure, Lynching Nacho or Deer or Me would have told us one definite townie as well, breaking apart the fighting that may occur, and if the roles are accepted setting up the other two for lynching.
Nacho's reaction, a bit odd, as though he didn't want to be associtated with coming up with a reason to do it. still, I considered that when I posted as well. WIFOM, it honestly could be argued either way. Is it enough to pay more attention to him for, yes, but so is my answer.

Zorb, I'm going to admit, that while I am leaning much more towards your being cop, I am still not certain.
Could you tell me what you make of Sens investigating TNM?

I think the hammer itself wasn't a big deal, but I do think that he overreacted quite a bit. I don't like it, but I think it can be explained as nervousness or just his general personality.

I think it was his first hammer, and I think he didn't want to step on anyone's toes. From what I saw Finch didn't post much, he seemed to try to be reading and keeping more quiet, I don't think he was prepared for emotional involvment. Now, He definitely did overreact, but He considered it, and acted with what he thought was the best decision. As I said earlier, I feel that he's cautious, but I would add nervious to that as well.


I'll put in my thoughts as of Day 4 tomorrow.

[jee]

This was Mr.Finch's first post after the night where there was no roleblock, Day 3. And this was even before SF posted anything about having an investigation.

Does this stick out to anyone?

I would say that he's wrong Jee. After all,

If either of the first two setups are in play, and the situation occurs where the Goon is lynched first, the Roleblocker will still be able to submit both night kills and roleblocks (roleblocking is a function of the Roleblocker; night kills are a function of the scum team as a whole).

That's in red at the beginning of post 2. But I suppose the roleblocker may not have known that.

I'm not saying he's wrong or right, because he is wrong. I'm asking if it throws up a red flag for anyone else seeing as it was his first post.

He uses his vote to actually Lynch, rather than using it as the multi-purpose weapon it is.

Do you agree with that?

@Deer and Pulindar, what were your takes on totallynotmafia getting killed last night? What do you think of Nachomamma8's reaction.

I didn't expect it, but depending on the logic it makes sense. Honestly I was concerned that even though I am a future lynch possibility the scum may have wished to lynch me to keep an unexplored view out of the game.

If thats not what you expected, what did you expect?

I'll put in my thoughts as of Day 4 tomorrow.

This please.

[jee]

As for my post about everybody thus far:

Zorblag

- I was leaning extremely toward SF before you replaced him. His overall play was scummy. He tunneled on Elli, whether it was on purpose or not, told us we needed to just vote for him without much discussion, decided to investigate TNM instead of who the town was really after. Now that you replaced him, you have a very town aspect to what you say. I am leaning heavily towards town with you, but you have a lot of experience and could completely be fooling us, especially because of SF being the one you replaced. I don't think I'll ever be 100% sure about what role you are.

Nachomamma08

- Not exactly sure on Nacho, I'm leaning toward town. The whole Night 2 situation just confuses me, but I believe that I blocked the doc. Something interesting I thought about was, Kami-Sami was replaced during Night 1:

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 27#1988927

He said if no one was replaced by then, it would be a random. Well the deadline had to be used and Arthur Dent was NK'd and that might be random, might not be. Just something to point out.

Pulidar

- I was conviced Mr.Finch may have been mafia, but not really sure anymore now that Pulidar took his spot. Pulidar seems to be overall town to me, but likes to point out that he is town in alot of posts. Either point out that hes town, or indirectly say something else about the roleblocked still out there. As of now, not really sure about him.

Deer

- Top on my list right now after I went back and reread. I remember why I originally thought he was scum, because of his posts during Day 1 and 2. He always talked as if he was walking on glass. Always tried to be pleasing everyone, and over defending anything that was mentioned. Day 3 he cleaned up and was scum hunting a little more, but whenever I go back and read the beginning again, my suspicion always jumps back to Deer. I also feel that his attacks on Nacho, specifically in post 505 are pretty empty.


Thats all I got right now.

[Pulindar]

Do you agree with that?

With using my vote only to Lynch? No, I don't agree with that. I feel that it should be used as the tool it is. In the position I'm in I feel that I need to use that tool cautiously though, so as not to draw suspicition on myself.

If thats not what you expected, what did you expect?

Myself to die. If I were scum, and I were not myself, I would have killed Pulindar. or Zorb. TNM would have been easy to persuade against almost anyone, he was suspitious of you Jee, Nacho, Deer, Finch, and while he felt secure in Zorb, I think he could have been persuaded to attack Zorb as well. Also, whoever TNM backed as a confirmed townie would have a higher chance of gaining suspition. He would have been a useful tool. Zorb and I on the other hand were replacements. The scum couldn't possibly know what we would do (Unless it is one of us) still, killing one of us would have been best and trying to manipulate TNM

I was conviced Mr.Finch may have been mafia, but not really sure anymore now that Pulidar took his spot. Pulidar seems to be overall town to me, but likes to point out that he is town in alot of posts. Either point out that hes town, or indirectly say something else about the roleblocked still out there. As of now, not really sure about him.

I'd probably talk the same way as either scum or town. As for the roleblocked, do you mean that I'm not sure about it? I'm not.

This please.

Jee:

I see Jee as town for the same reason that I saw TNM as town. Basically Zorb ruled him being mafia out.

Zorb:

Both Sens and Zorb have seemeed to play town to me honestly, but Sens' changed in styles from super aggresive while chasing Elli, to passive while confirming TNM really set me off.

Nacho:

Seems the second most likely to me. When he first replaced in I and turned around to vote for Elli even though Sens had no proof bothered me a bit, and his extreme focus on Zorb... still, it could just be an aggressive hunting style. You seem to be only semi focused on people, shifting completely and swiftly, why? Also, what do you think of Zorb, the entire thought and reason?

Deer:

Most suspected. probably should vote deer right now, still though... I want to hear something from him, anything substantial. I honestly can't find a good substantial argument from you Deer. I see your posts, and I understand them clearly enough, but nothing stands out as pro-town from you. You aren't too strongly scummy, but you just seem to be trying to back away from scum hunting and trying to see where we lead and then just support. Who do you suspect? Who is cleared? why? Do you have anything that makes yourself seem clear?

Pulindar:

as for myself. hmm. My argument for not voting for me based on Finch is that a big part of his lurking was do to his quiting. As for my own posts, to find something you need to risk something.

[Nachomamma8]

You seem to be only semi focused on people, shifting completely and swiftly, why?

It's my style... I just feel it's the most effective way I can scumhunt, I suppose.

Also, what do you think of Zorb, the entire thought and reason?

He's suspicious in the sense that he replaced my top scum read yesterday. So far, I haven't found anything that was strikingly scummy, so not much to say...

[Zorblag]

An outed cop needs to play a bit of a tricky game when deciding who they're going to investigate. With just a goon dead they don't have any reason to believe that they won't die during the night (if there's no doctor) or get roleblocked (if there is a doctor) so the investigation attempt really has to be made with the assumption that the scum will be doing something non-standard on their own with their actions. totallynotmafia wasn't an obvious cop investigation but he was someone that Ellibereth interacted with a fair amount so he was probably a decent choice; he wasn't too likely to get night killed on the off chance that the investigation worked.

As far as totallynotmafia getting killed last night goes, it shouldn't be all that surprising. I'd say it was the third best choice. If jee or I didn't get killed then totallynotmafia was the reasonable kill as they were a confirmed innocent. So long as the kill went through it's actually equivalent to having killed jee; once I got roleblocked last night either one is confirmed town that the mafia can kill any night they want to. Going for totallynotmafia over jee was a bit riskier for the scum as there was some chance that jee would protect totallynotmafia. The best choice would probably have been to kill me and roleblock jee as that would have left a cleared totallynotmafia and a pretty dubious jee who would have made a likely mislynch.

Deer largely seemed to recognize the implications with his answer when I asked about it. I couldn't particularly tell for Nachomamma8. Pulindar's concern that he might have been the one killed seems more off to me though I suppose after the kill night two I should make more allowances for what I think isn't the obvious play.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[jee]

Pulindar's concern that he might have been the one killed seems more off to me

Agreed. That is why I asked him what he expected.

PS good to see some more action.

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: Deer

I'm happy with this vote. Not a whole lot is happening right now, so I'm voting who I would if it were 24 hours to deadline right now. Quite frankly, you need to step it up a bit and start scumhunting, or I don't think you should be with the town too much longer.

@Zorblag + Jee: I'm not sure what I think about Pulindar right now, but I do know that the particular statement Zorb pointed out wasn't scummy to me...

[Deer]

Alright, I've been prodded so I guess I'll come in and say something. In the beginning, I didn't really find all that much Mr. Finch did to be suspicious. However, I've started to get some seriously bad vibes from Pulindar. It's mostly based on instinct, but the fact that he keeps saying how he expects himself to get lynched, or he expected himself to get NK'd doesn't look good in my eyes.

Though, I really hope I don't get lynched before I get to put in my thoughts. To be honest I was wondering if I would get a mafia role or not before jumping in, though I'll point that out later as well.

If I were scum, and I were not myself, I would have killed Pulindar.

Honestly I was concerned that even though I am a future lynch possibility the scum may have wished to lynch me to keep an unexplored view out of the game.

Townies don't always have to point out their town-ness; the way he keeps bringing it up seems like he's almost subliminally trying to put that thought into our minds. I don't like it. And, nacho hasn't done anything really scummy in the last day, so I'll take my vote off him for the time being. Also, I'd like to hear your guys' case on me - you guys haven't really said much solid about my scumminess, just that I've been kind of lurky and not completely scumhunting, which I agree I haven't been.

unvote, vote: pulindar

[jee]

vote Deer

I've only played one other game on this forum, and I was mafia. Just looking at your posts, I can see similarities between the game I played and your posts. This last post was enough for me... Your making cases on things that aren't enough to make cases from. And seeing as both myself and Zorb pointed out already that it was weird for Pulidar to expect himself to die, I feel like that is what you saw to be your opportunity to get suspicion off of you.

[Pulindar]

Alright, I've been prodded so I guess I'll come in and say something. In the beginning, I didn't really find all that much Mr. Finch did to be suspicious. However, I've started to get some seriously bad vibes from Pulindar. It's mostly based on instinct, but the fact that he keeps saying how he expects himself to get lynched, or he expected himself to get NK'd doesn't look good in my eyes.

I'd like to point out that I also talked about how you and Nacho were popular lynch possiblities, and that Zorb is one to a lesser extent. I'm trying to look at this from every perspective, not just some closed off one, which you keep trying to push the group into.

@Jee You make a good point, and while Deer has been my prime suspect since I took over for Finch, I'm just not sure enough to hammer yet and put us into LyLo. Let me look through the game again and see. I guess I'm using my vote like the finch before me did Oh well. As for me my only completed game so far was as scum as well.

Also, if you do check my other game, while people later told me it was the bad play I won as scum by taking out the random choice. Randomness, even if the sure thing is against you, is bad. I hate gambling. I'd rather loose straight out than gamble on what the next person will see.

Pulindar - L2; Deer
Deer - L1; Jee, Nacho