Open 193 - Friends and Enemies: It's over!

[Amished]

I was more looking if he {xRx} did it as town; which seemed to be the major hangup. Before I did it; I hadn't done it as town or scum; but then I replaced in as scum and criticized my predecessor and never did it since since I view it as that much of a scumtell.

[VP Baltar]

What are your current feelings on charlatan, Amished?

[Ojanen]

I was trying to get a post up but I can't look at the screen.
I fell ill again, I can't believe this.
Hopefully the fever'll be down soon but patchy access until it does.

[charlatan]

Hmm, perhaps its the fact that he was apparently your top suspect, but once you started catching flak over it you felt the need to unvote and change to SC seemingly out of left field.

It's telling that you are only bringing this up now, because at the time nobody expressed any particular suspicion over the timing of the vote. Ojanen asked about it and I answered in my ISO 34, and nobody ever mentioned it again that I recall. If anyone thought unvoting Ramp was scummy, I would hope they would have brought it up, unless there is some pro-town reason to not allow me the chance to respond to it that I don't know about.

---

The quotes you provided all related to the one point about OMGUS, which was never terribly interesting in the first place. The signal to noise ratio there is low anyways: you ask me a question, I answer it, and then we basically do it again a few times. I think it's pretty clear that there was a difference between talking about Ramp insulting you and Ramp trying to bandwagon you, and the last thing I want is to get mired down in it again.

I don't really need to argue it; anyone who reads you in isolation should be able to tell that you've only ever actually pushed me in regards to one point, which you dropped.

---

ABR is not gone from that list. In fact, just two pages ago (post 374) I said he was a top suspect. That hasn't changed, especially since he hasn't been present the last few pages.

I wasn't saying for sure that he was gone from your list. I was asking for a clarification. This seems like an overly defensive response to the question I posed.

If you think clarification + a reference to make it more clear is overly defensive, you're looking for something where there's nothing.

Major bullshit alert! Where is the sense of urgency? I'm not rushing anybody to vote you. I have simply stated my opinion on the matter, which is that I feel you are the best lynch for the day. Nowhere in any of my posts am I saying "hurry up everyone, you have to vote immediately!".

No, you haven't said that, and it's mostly a gut and vibe sort of thing that stems from things like arguing that if I'm not lynched today, everyone is likely to forget about Day 1 and I'll just be off the hook. Or, the comment that I need to be "dealt with" because, I guess, your read will never be any better. These things all say to me, "done deal, let's lynch him now while we can." It's not a very important thing, but I do get that feeling and so I'm curious to see if anyone else does too.

I would also like to know why you think me wanting your lynch is scummy, but ABR essentially doing the same thing (and with far less explanation) apparently does not register on your radar.

Of course I notice it. When Ramp chimes in with a post that just says something like "More votes for PlayerX, please", it's pretty run of the mill and I don't expect anything at all to come from asking him about it.

My general impression is that you saw Oj's vote as an opportunity to bail from the SC vote, which was also garnering suspicion on you when you realized you had nothing of substance to push.

Well, this line of questioning and the reasoning that has stemmed from it was in play before Ojanen's vote. I started going back and forth with you in 372, then in 389 set in with sincerity. Ojanen's vote is a bit later in 402. It's certainly encouraging though, and I'm sure it made me more likely to feel confident about my own vote. Two votes are better than one and I have every reason to want you lynched over me. Going quietly into the night with my vote on a guy who is unlikely to be lynched at this junction will not help the town.

It's a gamble because we'd be lynching on Amished's "scumtell" pretty much alone.

Why is that? It seems to me that with more discussion with Reckoner (even only a little bit) we'd have worlds more information to base reads on. For instance, he stated without explanation that I'm his top town read and SC was one of his only scum reads, which is a pretty big deal. You're characterizing an alternate route of investigation as a "gamble" when it's not, which is important.

Here's your clarification: misrepresentation full-tilt! Just because your words are understandable, which is what I was saying, does not mean your explanations are good or believable by me. That point is not difficult to understand in the least.

Maybe it's just an error in interpretation on my part, but I don't think so. Generally, if I do not believe someone in regards to a range of points, it is because their reasoning is inconsistent or their behavior in the thread clearly conflicts with what they say, and I'm inclined to argue the points when they arise. The only thing you brought up was the OMGUS wording, so when you stopped asking about that, I moved on. To hear you make so strong a proclamation that your mind will never be swayed and I need to be strung up while the stringing's good sounds odd, since your convictions really only seem to have become super strong in the last few pages.

DDD - In case you missed it, please see 406.

Is 406 really relevant any more given 413?

Yes. Is there a particular reason not to answer it? Even though you're not voting Amished, understanding some things about why you voted in the first place helps my read on you, especially when you alluded to having additional reasons for your vote on him that you never expounded on.

[charlatan]

Sorry, megapost = megaresponse, I know it's annoying.

Also, Sando: When you voted me, you were talking about attack vs. defense and how the quality of each reflects on a person's scuminess to you. I think that's completely wrong, and would likely be different for each individual player, but I'm curious as to how you view Baltar through that same lens.

[Amished]

@VP: I view both you and Charlatan to be suffering from confirmation bias and tunnelvision. Char is less guilty of TV than you {VP} are though in my eyes. I get an undertone of charlatan's posts that he's frustrated that the same points that he's defending himself again get brought up in a slightly different manner; while I think that if it's an easy point to defend against, he'd be happy to prove his innocence through that if he were scum.

I hate my meta of you. You're really the only person on the site where I do have a meta on somebody, and yours absolutely sucks. Since I truly believe you to be town, I'm asking you to take a step backwards and re-evaluate the game as I do believe that Charlatan is town as well.

[VP Baltar]

When have I ever steered you wrong when I'm town Amished? Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeen!!!

[xRECKONERx]

*yawn*

Trying to read through this game, but a hangover + roommate playing Mass Effect + massive hunger pains is making it difficult. Anyways, here we go:

Scien vs. VPB is interesting. Scien's 202 makes good points about VPB, and VPB's response didn't do much in the way of defending in my opinion. Vi's response to SC's 187 also aligns with my views. It seems like the suspicion stacks up on VPB rather quickly on p9.

Also, lemme just get this out of the way... I dislike playing in games with both VPB and Amished, just like I dislike playing in games with both SC and elvis_knits, for the simple fact that I can never tell when it's blatant buddying or just meta-game relationship. *sigh*

DDD's lack of content this far into the game (p.9) disturbs me.

Top of p.9, ABR joins the VPB wagon. Cool. Charlatan's 228 is too blatant fence-sitting, and definitely decreases my read on him. When I've played as scum, I've used a similar tactic of pointing out two people who are arguing, claim they're bussing without giving much insight into the argument, and then set myself up to look inscrutable by claiming I'd be okay with voting for either since I believe them both to be scum. And, whoa, looks like SC agreed with me in post 234, which gives him +town points.

Despite ABR's QFT posts, which can be offputting, I tend to play like that as well - agree with other arguments, or disagree with other arguments and point out why.

Amished's 239 vote of ABR is lulzy, and I support SC's 241 vote of charlatan, who seems like the best lynch candidate at this point. BTW, I can't remember if I actually voted in my previous post, so

unvote

just in case.

Top of p.10, I'm not a big fan of Zorblag's "don't post frequently, but post occasionally with giant walls of text" style... but his meta explanation of ABR actually clears up quite a bit. Furthermore, he thoroughly addresses all issues that need to be addressed, AND lays down a vote for charlatan, which is IMO the most pro-town vote at this point.

And a charlatan response! This should be good... he says he finds them both scummy, and they just HAPPEN to be arguing... not that the arguing makes them scummy. Yet, I don't recall seeing charlatan point out one single reason why either of them are independently scummy.

Porkchop and Scien are both very inactive ;_;

I thought I was gonna make a good catch with charlatan's fence sitting, but even my predecessor has jumped on board with how scummy it is by 276. sigh. AAAND here comes another charlatan response. Nothing that can sway me here.

I like Amished's vote on DDD in 278... I can't believe he was allowed to actively lurk for this long.

@ABR: do you have actual meta evidence of charlatan contributing more as scum than town, or is it just a crazy theory you want to test out?

Vi is almost certainly town btw. I have yet to see a Vi post that I haven't viewed as pro-town, and post 297 calls out exactly how I was feeling about Porkchop's "catchup" post.

DDD's vote on Amished (bottom of p 13) is nothing more than a pretty-fied OMGUS. Fail. Especially when I have a slight town read on Amished and a slight scum read on DDD. That just pushed him further down my list. Coincidentally, charlatan's 302 vote of SC is baaaad since 1) it's weaksauce and 2) SC was one of my stronger town reads, while charlatan had slipped down the list since p8. In fact, he's probably at the bottom right now.

...I had forgotten about Sando. dub tee eff

I like ABR's top three scum in 323 minus Amished. Put VPB in for Amished and I think that's more in line. Porkchop might be in there as well, depending on how the next few pages shake out.

Okay, now I'm getting bored to be completely honest. Basically, charlatan continues to open mouth->insert foot, and I'm all but convinced he's floundering scum at this point. Ojanen's is probably the hardest for me to read at this point, I don't know why. Her posts seem to be as neutral as fuckin' possible.

@Zorblag: You say it's easier to treat ABR's play as a tool to use in the long run. Does his alignment affect the usefulness of the 'tool'?

And yeah, I'm here on p. 15 kinda nodding off. Maybe it's the meal I just ate (yum, honey bbq wings, I need a cigarette, dammit). DDD plays like arrogant scum on this page. Specifically post 360. I played with him in Mayor Mafia, but even then it seemed like he was contributing a bit more content and not playing so confident-scum-like. There seem to be a lot of egos in this game, and I can't tell what's player ego and what's scummy ego.

I can't believe charlatan is still pushing the SC case tbqh.

And, hey, there goes my predecessor. And hey, there I am replacing in.

@Zorblag: I think it was charlatan's quick-fire posts that seemed town to me, since I tend to do that at the start of most games. SC was my top scum candidate for his shitty vote on VPB... but I think you'll find my new scumreads/townreads below interesting given my full catch-up being completed.

I see that people think it's a scumtell to criticize your predecessor... eh. Not sure I agree. What, should I just not mention him period? If he played shitty, he played shitty... I think it'd be scummier to ignore it than actually acknowledge it. Either way, it can be read as scummy, so it's basically a nulltell at best.

@Amished: I thought I'd replaced into more than just that. Well, actually, I think there's like two other games I've replaced into, but they're both ongoing, and I don't link anything in the wiki until the games are completed.


Anyway, that's all for the catchup. If I missed anything, pleaaase point it out. And here's my current scumlist.

SCUMMEH:

charlatan
PorkchopExpress
DDD

PRETTEH SCUMMEH:

VP Baltar
Sando

NEUTRAL:

Amished
Ojanen
Albert B Rampage

TOWNEE:

Zorblag
Vi
SC

<3

[Amished]

@VP: How about when you told PCE to shoot me in Last Man Standing? How about after you helped finish off Benmage in said game you didn't have an early scum read on any of the remaining scum (where I shot Jazz and d3x).

How about when you wanted ckd dead for multiple days in LOST? Yes, I was scum but you were so far off the right track I wanted to keep you around forever.

I'm pretty sure those are the only two games you've been town, now that I think about it...

[VP Baltar]

@VP: How about when you told PCE to shoot me in Last Man Standing? How about after you helped finish off Benmage in said game you didn't have an early scum read on any of the remaining scum (where I shot Jazz and d3x).

I found 2 scum in that game (Ecto, pwnz) and said very early on that benmage was scum (no one was listened to me, however). I'd say I did plenty fine there. Your death was necessary to clarify the situation. Martyrdom is sweet.

How about when you wanted ckd dead for multiple days in LOST? Yes, I was scum but you were so far off the right track I wanted to keep you around forever.

He was honorary scum in that game. But I will say that with Santos' play there it was nigh impossible to be on the right track. Not a good game for me, but pobody's nerfect.

[xRECKONERx]

I can agree with VPB on the LOST thing. Santos played awful that game.

[Vi]

I'm back, but tired. I'll catch up and respond as soon as I can.

[Amished]

@VP: I called Benmage and d3x scum very early on (especially d3x); but nobody listened to me either. At each true death/shooting I had the right read on who died, other than Sotty; and that was cause of her connection to you.

So we'll turn it around, when we're both town, when do *I* lead *you* wrong when you don't agree with me?

[SerialClergyman]

To be honest, this conversation should be had over a beer. I don't see the relevence to the game. The past is the past, you can't rely on your history to make the case for you.

I'm happy with the charlatan case and unhappy with ojanen pushing it but not jumping on it.

[VP Baltar]

So we'll turn it around, when we're both town, when do *I* lead *you* wrong when you don't agree with me?

You're my hero, second only to me.

To be honest, this conversation should be had over a beer. I don't see the relevence to the game. The past is the past, you can't rely on your history to make the case for you.

Probably.

I'm happy with the charlatan case and unhappy with ojanen pushing it but not jumping on it.

Yer.

[Amished]

@SC: We're both trying to convince each other that we're right and it's not working.

@VP: Awwww <3

[PorkchopExpress]

I think Charlatan is misrepresenting VPB in his last post. A scan of VP in iso has not left me with the impression that he is rushing a Charlatan lynch, or that he considers such a bandwagon to be now or never. It feels like Charlatan is pulling this right out of his arse.

No, you haven't said that, and it's mostly a gut and vibe sort of thing that stems from things like arguing that if I'm not lynched today, everyone is likely to forget about Day 1 and I'll just be off the hook.

Where did he argue this? I didn't see it in an isoscan.

I’m not won over by the way that Charlatan tries to play himself up as the victim, and he is as guilty of rushing the conclusion of his lynch as he claims VPB is.

@Reck: I’m interested to know why you had SC down as scum initially. I would also like to know exactly what is giving you scummy vibes about VPB

[Amished]

@Serial and VPB: I've read pages and walls of text and everything going back and forth. I want both of you to summarize your 3 best points against Char in a paragraph each (so 3 paragraphs from each of you) on why you feel he's scum.

[xRECKONERx]

@Reck: I’m interested to know why you had SC down as scum initially. I would also like to know exactly what is giving you scummy vibes about VPB

I think it was charlatan's quick-fire posts that seemed town to me, since I tend to do that at the start of most games.

SC was my top scum candidate for his shitty vote on VPB

... but I think you'll find my new scumreads/townreads below interesting given my full catch-up being completed.

Scien's 202 makes good points about VPB, and VPB's response didn't do much in the way of defending in my opinion.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Unvote, vote porkchopexpress

PRETTEH SCUMMEH

Who's weth meh?

[VP Baltar]

Where did he argue this? I didn't see it in an isoscan.

Pretty sure he's referring to this:

Which sort of brings me to my other point about the "big question mark". If you have this issue that I really don't believe you on and take to be scummy, no amount of days passing and other events happening is going to change this particular issue. You have already spoken on it and I didn't like your replies. Now, we could let you live and other stuff would happen and you'd post and people would probably forget all about your scumminess here, but none of that resolves the actual issue. It's still there and your responses are still scummy.

Knowing your alignment, however, does alleviate "the big question mark". In other words, a bird in hand is worth more than two in the bush.

Which is me basically explaining why I think his lynch is the best choice today instead of his argument of "something better is bound to come along".

@Serial and VPB: I've read pages and walls of text and everything going back and forth. I want both of you to summarize your 3 best points against Char in a paragraph each (so 3 paragraphs from each of you) on why you feel he's scum.

I'm not sure why it needs to be restated if you've read the thread, but ok.

1) His stance toward ABR and myself are inconsistent with his posts in thread: when he votes ABR he is seemingly agreeing with my point about ABR OMGUSing. Later he says he disagrees with this and that it was scummy for me to say so. Then I quote where he agrees with me. Then he says there are many types of OMGUS. etc. etc.

2) Misrepping and general weirdness. See my last big post to see a couple examples of clear misrep. Also, he exaggerates a mild questioning between he and I early as "spat", which indicates a guilty conscience to some degree, imo. Throw some general AtE in this pot as well with his BS about me trying to rush his lynch.

3) His voting most of the game has been poorly reasoned and seemingly meant to get suspicion off of him. His SC vote comes after he takes flak for ABR/VP-gate. Then he comes with a vote against me that isn't even for whatever the hell he found me scummy for before because people were on his back about the SC vote.

So, there you go. The highlights.

[PorkchopExpress]

Bah, sorry reck. It's hard to concentrate with all the drilling. (That's on the SC issue). I was expecting more on VPB though.

[charlatan]

No, you haven't said that, and it's mostly a gut and vibe sort of thing that stems from things like arguing that if I'm not lynched today, everyone is likely to forget about Day 1 and I'll just be off the hook.

Where did he argue this? I didn't see it in an isoscan.

This is what I'm referring to:

Future days will not change what you've explained thus far, only make people forget about it.

Now, we could let you live and other stuff would happen and you'd post and people would probably forget all about your scumminess here, but none of that resolves the actual issue.

I don't really think that anyone is likely to forget about problematic things on Day 1 at all. But from the standpoint of scum pushing a lynch on town, this is a useful position to hold. (I don't see how it is the other way around, myself.

[charlatan]

Which is me basically explaining why I think his lynch is the best choice today instead of his argument of "something better is bound to come along".

Where are you getting this "something better is bound to come along" argument? I'm not even sure what you're referring to.

[VP Baltar]

Where are you getting this "something better is bound to come along" argument? I'm not even sure what you're referring to.

You constantly referring to how the attacks are you are from "early game" and we've been "harping on it for 5+ pages" or whatever the exact quote is. It's you essentially saying "come on guys, you've had your fun now move along".