Newbie 893 - Newbieland! (GAME OVER)

[Riza]

But... I didn't use more than usual. In other message boards, I have about 2-5 emoticons in each of my posts. I didn't think it would be necessary to use emoticons on this website so I tried toning down a bit. It's a habit, so I can't get rid of them all. I don't see how a typing habit will make me scum.

[chauchaudotcom]

I've actually strained myself from using too many here, but I guess that's obviously not working.

Wait what? From this quote I got that you were increasing the amount of emoticons you normally use as opposed to decreasing.

[Riza]

Awh, my bad. I meant that I was trying to use less emoticons here than usual, but I'm still using quite a few so my attempt to decrease seems to have failed. Here, I initially tried to use only one emoticon in a post if I ever needed to, but yeah, I guess I have been using more here than I

initially

wanted to.

I hope that makes a bit more sense?

[ThetaSigma]

I've actually strained myself from using too many here, but I guess that's obviously not working.

Wait what? From this quote I got that you were increasing the amount of emoticons you normally use as opposed to decreasing.

I think this should be read "I've actually

re

strained myself."

It made sense to me.

[Pomegranate]

I just made long post in response to Honest Abel, as well as some other things (took me about 40 minutes), after I got home from staying late at school. The tab was closed by accident when I was referencing VI in the wiki. Hopefully I will have a chance to redo it later tonight- I don't have the fortitude right now.

[xRECKONERx]

D1 Vote Count #8

Pomegranate (2): Honest Abel, chauchaudotcom
Riza (2): RayFrost, Vaporeonage
Vaporeonage (3): Pomegranate, JarcLovesCinn, Riza
RayFrost (1): Nikanor

Not Voting (1): ThetaSigma

Deadline: January 29, 2010 at 2:00PM EST

[Pomegranate]

I just made long post in response to Honest Abel, as well as some other things (took me about 40 minutes), after I got home from staying late at school. The tab was closed by accident when I was referencing VI in the wiki. Hopefully I will have a chance to redo it later tonight- I don't have the fortitude right now.

I'm sorry, I'm wiped, and probably won't get to it until tomorrow. I've been on MS for an hour and a half- about half of it writing the post that wasn't, the other writing a post for a game with four new pages today. Expect it tomorrow. I'm sorry.

[Honest Abel]

I was going to ask you about your personal definition of VI, so I'm glad to hear you are thinking of saying something about that. I'd just like to know what makes you distinguish between Vapor and VI.

[xRECKONERx]

Prodding JarcLovesCinn and Vaporeonage.

[chauchaudotcom]

I think this should be read "I've actually restrained myself."

That makes more sense. Too bad she defended with:

I meant that I was trying to use less emoticons here than usual, but I'm still using quite a few so my attempt to decrease seems to have failed. Here, I initially tried to use only one emoticon in a post if I ever needed to, but yeah, I guess I have been using more here than I initially wanted to.

In any case I'm waiting on Pom's promised post.

[Honest Abel]

Not that this tangent has anything to do with the game, but I don't see anything wrong or contradictory about Riza's defense of her emoticon use. She intended to restrain her use, and has since used too many for her liking.

[chauchaudotcom]

The quote from Riza was her defense for me saying "From this quote I got that you were increasing the amount of emoticons you normally use".

But it has nothing to do with scumminess. I'm just bored.

[Honest Abel]

By the way, Riza, no, Village Idiot is not a given role. It's just a term used for a vanilla townie who has no or little idea of how to actually play the game. From my understanding, they are generally useless and can be detrimental to the town's chances because they might do things like vote for someone at L-1 without really realizing the consequences, or switching their votes frequently to agree with whatever good point was made last, or other things Vaporeonage has done. This is why I think Vapor is village idiot and not scum. I can't say I would be heartbroken if we lynched Vapor and he/she turned out to be town, because so far he/she really hasn't been any help anyway. BUT we have bigger fish to fry.

So, Riza, what do you think about Vapor as a village idiot? Do you disagree? What exactly makes you feel like Vapor's actions are scummy and not just confused? I'd also like to hear JarcLovesCinn's thoughts on the same thing, and, of course, Pom's highly anticipated explanation.

We are at a point where the votes are pretty evenly dispersed among three to four targets, which means for any lynching to happen, people are going to need to be persuaded from their current targets to agree with others. I've been asking to be persuaded to target Vaporeonage, but I'm having a tough time with it so far and I currently doubt I will be swayed to vote for him/her.

[Riza]

I'm sorry about my fail explanation posts, guys. Without school, my brain turns to mush.

I'm leaning more toward the fact that Vapor is more like the clueless newbie scum, rather than the village idiot. I think he's trying to get us to think he's village idiot, rather than newbie scum, but he is in fact, scum. Also, is bandwagoning bad? As in, if done too many times?

[RayFrost]

VI can be any real role - it is more a sign the person is inept than a sign of their role.

[Honest Abel]

I'm leaning more toward the fact that Vapor is more like the clueless newbie scum, rather than the village idiot. I think he's trying to get us to think he's village idiot, rather than newbie scum, but he is in fact, scum.

What would make you jump to this conclusion? I can understand how a player who acts strange can be village idiot. The connection there is obvious. But what about Vapor's behavior makes you think he's scum pretending to be village idiot? What is the distinction you are making? I don't see it. It just seems like an assumption without any real evidence, which makes me question why you are so resolute with your vote.

[chauchaudotcom]

Abel. Barring other people's attempts to 'sway' you, who are your top suspects? I mean, conclusions you draw on your own accord not just based off other people's arguments.

[chauchaudotcom]

Wait. Nevermind. You're voting Pom at the moment. Scratch that. New question.

Aside from Pom, who else are you suspicious of?

[Honest Abel]

Right, I've been the one constantly finding faults with Pomegranate's behavior, remember me?

I can't say I have a good grasp on anyone else besides Pom right now. I explained some of my uncertainties earlier (Theta's logical behavior being hard to read, RayFrost's aggressive behavior being hard to interpret). JarcLovesCinn, I haven't really gotten a grasp on his/her behavior because of the lack of activity, which was the same for Vaporeon before the instant bandwagon (but I have decided to consider him/her VI for now). I can put Nikanor in this same inactive category, but I'm not sure if that's because he/she just joined. It could be interesting interpreting how two different people have been playing the role, whatever it is.

I am slightly suspicious of Riza just because he/she seems to be having a hard time justifying his/her vote. I don't know why someone would cast a vote without having proven it to the self enough to be able to justify it with evidence. I have a bad feeling that Riza voted for Vapor just because Pom did.

And you, chau, I have to say you are being quite helpful to town by promoting discussion and asking questions all the time, so you are currently not on my suspicion radar. I will have to review your posts and behavior at some point, though.

Also, I noticed you had to specify that you wanted conclusions drawn from my own accord and not based on others' arguments. Do you feel like I am stealing anyone's arguments or that I've reached no conclusions? More importantly, do you think it's a good strategy to analyse/criticize others' suspicions/votes/apparent-scumhunting, or should I just stick to, um, whatever else people are doing in the thread? In typing that last sentence I realized there's not really much else to do besides question others' arguments, is there? So I'm not sure why you had to make that distinction. Again, maybe I'm misinterpreting you like I did earlier when you said Riza cleared me of suspicion based on an argument I made that I apparently stole from you, but it seems like there's an accusatory tone to your posts that I can't put my finger on. Let me know if you find faults with my gameplay or if you have better ideas of how I can think about scumhunting. I'm trying pretty hard to help town, and I'd expect advice from a townie instead of accusation that I'm not trying to help.

[chauchaudotcom]

Also, I noticed you had to specify that you wanted conclusions drawn from my own accord and not based on others' arguments. Do you feel like I am stealing anyone's arguments or that I've reached no conclusions?

No, not really. I was asking that prior because your latest post was talking about you waiting for people to convince you. I just wanted to be clear on what your views on people were (outside influence aside).

More importantly, do you think it's a good strategy to analyse/criticize others' suspicions/votes/apparent-scumhunting, or should I just stick to, um, whatever else people are doing in the thread?

That's pretty much the essence of the game.

It wasn't an accusation, I just like to know people's stances throughout the game. It makes it easier to observe how people change opinions, etc.

The day's dragging, we have three lurkers, divided opinion and I want a flip. *sighs*

[Honest Abel]

I didn't mean so much that I

want

to be persuaded so much as I want people to try to persuade me. I won't put it past them to persuade me, but nobody's really stepping forward to support their case. I put up a bunch of stuff on Pom that nobody's really responding to that much aside from saying "this doesn't work here," but there are other points that have gone ignored and I'm wondering if it's because everyone truly thinks Pom is town and I'm missing it.

[Pomegranate]

Starting this post for the third time...

All right, looking at Vaporeon's posts, I can see why some people have chosen to vote for him/her. I, however, do not find his posts representative of scummy behavior; unhelpful, sure, but his confusion seldom struck me as scummy. I think there is much more sinister behavior afoot and focusing on an inexperienced player's tribulations as if they were scummy seems plenty sinister to me.

But I think that the lack of scumhunting

is

scummy. I'm not ruling out the possibility of Vapor just being a VI, but I think that since scum have very little motivation to actually scumhunt, then the fact that he's not scumhunting is scummy.

If you were scum, why would you scumhunt more than you had to?

Pom, I don't believe his/her vote on RayFrost was confusing at all; he mentioned that RayFrost attacks anyone who suspects him. I can't personally agree with this since I don't think RayFrost has done this in every case and because he's certainly attacked more people than have suspected him. However, I think Vaporeon picked up on RayFrost's unconcentrated attacks and a bit of defensiveness and decided to cast a vote his way. I don't think that's scummy.

I see. I just couldn't tell his reasoning from his post, which had little punctuation or grammar:

Unvote, Vote RayFrost Anyone says anything about him they're immediately scum, I think Ray is a little scummy

I also think, Pom, that you and others may be reading a little too much into Vaporeon's L-1 vote. I hadn't been keeping track of the votes up to that point and I wouldn't have realized you were at L-1 if not for chau's following post and the fuss that ensued. My guess is that Vaporeon didn't realize he/she would be placing you a vote away from lynch or that doing so would cause such a ruckus.

I did notice, though, how quick you were to OMGUS-vote Vaporeon back.

Covered by a seemingly good amount of reason

, sure, but please don't try to tell us that you would have voted for Vaporeon at that point anyway if he/she hadn't voted for you.

No, I wouldn't have voted for Vapor if not for the L-1 vote. But I would have voted him if it was on another wagon that formed as quickly as the one did on me (also, see the following paragraph). I find that I can find a lot of information from wagons on me. Often I'm wagonned D1, and sometimes it helps me see things in a different light.

After seeing Vapor's L-1, I realized that I didn't remember much at all about him. So I checked back on him posts, and found them contradictory: In his iso, posts 1-4 seem to show that he is a bit suspicious of RF. But after a wagon forms on me, he sides with RF in his iso post 5. In iso 7 he follows RF by voting Riza.

Also, I don't like the way you throw around the term OMGUS. I didn't OMGUS-vote him. According to the wiki:

OMGUS stands for "Oh My God, You Suck (for voting for me)!". It is sometimes used as a shorthand to indicate that you are voting for someone primarily because they voted for you.

But even according to what you said yourself, in the bolded (though I do not think that the wording you used was good,) I used reasoning. I didn't vote Vapor because he voted

me

, but because he placed the L-1 vote so quickly.

I also find your lengthy and detailed (and colored?) summary of your target's posts at my humble request another link in your suspicious chain of actions. Too often I find you trying to placate others as you have attempted to placate me here so completely: I asked for a concise statement of your personal feelings, and you gave me a comprehensive list of Vapor's posts. I just don't find the arguments founded enough to consider it an attempt to help the town; it seems you are merely trying to help me as you have tried to help so many others without hunting or

saying too much to offend anyone who could possibly defend his or her actions.

Again, I leave my vote on you, Pom.

So by answering your question (albeit in a somewhat lengthy way), I'm suspicious. So the fact that I answered you, as opposed to say, JLC, makes me scummier than him?

About the bolded: I wouldn't "offend" (I don't see why stating that you find someone scummy is offensive) anyone who could reasonably defend him/herself, if I understood the defense, and agreed with it, because that would mean that I understood why whoever it was did whatever it was.

--

Why don't you answer your own question?

Most of Vaporeon's posts slipped under my nose because of how short they were, so I never really paid much attention to them. Then I noticed he/she was L-2, so my first response was to ask everyone "Why?" because it was quicker than re-reading the whole day in light of Vaporeon's contributions. Then I went to NYC for a couple days, which I probably should have mentioned beforehand. I found some of the responses quite helpful (obviously not yours, since you completely avoided the question) and found some faults with others (sorry, Pom, I think I disagree on some of your points) and I will explain my thoughts on Vaporeon and the responses I got as soon as I go over his/her posts myself, which should happen before the end of the night.

My reason for not voting is due to the fact every [pokemon]age I've played with has been fail in epic proportions.

They are a bunch of VIs, which makes it hard as fook to read them.

Thus, I've chalked vap to VI, not scum, ftm.

Yes, I could see Vapor as VI, but I see him more as scum.

About the bolded: Do you think the fact that he is (or seems to be) a VI, and is therefore hard to read, means that he's not scum?

Don't scum want to be a bit hard to read?

--

This is why I think Vapor is village idiot and not scum.

But why can't a VI be scum? (I've seen a lynch put off because 'he's not scum, just a VI'.) I don't see why that have to be mutually exclusive.

--

I don't find Riza scummy for the whole emoticon thing, but slightly scummy for other reasons.

[RayFrost]

Pome, I think that vapo would be one of those easy mislynch types.

Hard to read as VI doesn't mean it is impossible.

I'll get a read on him.

[Pomegranate]

He hasn't posted since Saturday. I see he's been prodded.

RF: But I've seen those VIs, who everyone thought would be a mislynch, turn out to be scum. Once he posts again, I'll take another look.

[RayFrost]

Well, here's the thing.

Would you rather lynch active-scum or a guy you aren't even sure is scum?

Would you rather lynch him when you have no better alternatives or take a wild stab at one of those that may actually be useful to the town?

Would you rather lynch a guy that's served no real value to the town but no real value to the scum now or the day everybody but him seems town?

Currently, if you have other scum reads, I think it'd be better spent pursuing those.

A VI-scum will do as well under pressure as VI-town... as in not reacting at all.

Active-scum or Active-town will provide you with some kind of read when pressured.