Teleportation Mafia Universe TWO (TOWN WINS)

[Lowell]

Day 1 Vote Count

animorpherv1 ( 0 )
Anon ( 0 )
DeathRowKitty ( 0 )
DocPotter ( 1 ) DeathRowKitty
don_johnson ( 0 )
Ellibereth ( 0 )
Elmo ( 0 )
fhqwhads ( 0 )
Jack ( 2 ) Kairyuu Lowell
Jahudo ( 1 ) Maelyn
Kairyuu ( 2 ) Jack DocPotter
Kise ( 0 )
Lowell ( 0 )
Maelyn ( 5 ) Jahudo Ellibereth animorpherv1 Anon Nicodemus
Nicodemus ( 0 )
Not Voting ( 4 ) don_johnson Elmo fhqwhads Kise
Total ( 15 )

With 15 alive, 8 needed to lynch.
Deadline: 2/8 11am

I agree with 119. This game has a mechanism to deal with players we don't particularly like, but don't otherwise know what to do with.

also, kairyuu gets points for reading what's happening in the other 'verse as well. The biggest problem we'ere going to face is trying to coexist with an opposing town that we're only loosely aligned with.

[Lowell]

I agree with 119. This game has a mechanism to deal with players we don't particularly like, but don't otherwise know what to do with.

also, kairyuu gets points for reading what's happening in the other 'verse as well. The biggest problem we'ere going to face is trying to coexist with an opposing town that we're only loosely aligned with.

[Kairyuu]

I agree with your second two (surprisingly enough, in the case of ani), but Jack-scum is a good lynch.

[DeathRowKitty]

@Elli
Do you find Maelyn scummmy? I don't really see anything she's done as worse than a null tell.

[animorpherv1]

Wait, someone called me pro-town? I'm in the wrong universe.

[Kairyuu]

Didn't notice I was ninja-ed. My last post was RE: Elli's last one.

[Ellibereth]

Lowell: 119?
DRK: Nah.

[animorpherv1]

Proposal for Uni2: Synchronized hammers for maximum fairness. Accept?

I'd agree to this. However, I'd like to mention that night kills may get sent in at different times.

[Lowell]

Yeah 119 obviously isn't what I meant. I'm having trouble with the page.

I agree with whoever wrote this on the other page: crosskills are going to be key. Keep sending our scummy players back and forth and the existing scumgroups will have to keep deciding what to do with them, probably choosing to kill most of them without us having to do anything or losing our towniest players.

[Kairyuu]

Yeah 119 obviously isn't what I meant. I'm having trouble with the page.

I agree with whoever wrote this on the other page: crosskills are going to be key. Keep sending our scummy players back and forth and the existing scumgroups will have to keep deciding what to do with them, probably choosing to kill most of them without us having to do anything or losing our towniest players.

ugh. Don't you get it? The likelihood of a crosskill in a game like this is EXTRAORDINARILY LOW. To the point where it's more dangerous to attempt to make it happen then it would be to treat this like a mountainous and go without using any teleports.

[Jack]

Kai, is your case on me really based on the strategy disagreement? Yours is obviously unworkable, I wouldn't need to convince the town not to do it. The teleporters aren't going to want to sacrifice themselves. I certainly wouldn't.

[Kairyuu]

My case on you is based on the method with which you discounted the very idea of my strategy (which you're still doing now), as well as the OMGUS vote. I see no better cases, do you?

[Kairyuu]

Dunno how the hell I missed this when I skimmed the other game, but this is important:

Some theory about this game:

The best use of a teleport is obvious. We get the scum into the other universe.

The best use of a pull is slightly less obvious. If we go into night at a time not exactly the same as the other universe, then if their teleporter is confident that ours will pull him - and that he wants to be pulled - their teleporter can claim. The next day, we have an extra clear.
If their teleporter isn't confident of this, he won't claim, and all we can do is get their most townie/useful looking player over here.

That first use of a pull is easily the strongest of all of those - it gets us a confirmed inno for a day (and so also forces the scum's hand the next night). It also becomes much more powerful later in the game, when a clear or three matters a lot more.

So, I suggest we (ie the town teleporter) adopt a strategy of Teleport, Teleport, Pull, Pull. If the scum don't manage to kill the teleporter on night 3, and our town is a friendly enough place for the other teleporter to want to be here (and clear), we will have clears on days 4 and 5, which could be very important. If this isn't the case, we lose very little.

This may look like it screws over the other town, but actually it doesn't - we can both implement this strategy. There are two important times to have teleporters in this strategy: at night, and when the other town is going into night. If our nights don't overlap, both towns will have teleporters at both these times.

There are some unknowns here, obviously; scum may kill a teleporter, teleport someone one way or the other, we may or may not lynch scum, etc. But AFAIC, this strategy has the potential to do us a lot of good, and won't do us any harm.

I don't think there's a good argument for guiding the teleports.

This plan is better than mine. I propose it is adopted. It does not require coordination of Nights, and benefits both towns equally.

[zorastermod]

By the way, I just wanted to make sure everyone realized I had been adding any clarifying remarks I make in one game into a section called "Corrections and Clarifications" in the rules section of both games. For the most part these were all my intentions that I did not necessarily articulate well to begin with. Shame on me.

[Jack]

My case on you is based on the method with which you discounted the very idea of my strategy (which you're still doing now), as well as the OMGUS vote. I see no better cases, do you?

Yes. The method in which I "discounted the very idea of your strategy", aka I say that teleporter's won't want to claim and it's boring if they did. You think this is suspicious, I gather, because mafia might be motivated to step in and derail your plan. But since your plan is unworkable, why would I need to step in and derail it? This is what I just said in the last post btw.

Do you consider retaliation votes to be a scumtell?

Is your case on me just a "there isn't anything better at the moment" case?

[Kairyuu]

@Raskol in the other universe:

Fishy's plan can be adopted so long as it isn't used by only one town to screw the other over. Honestly I think it's a better idea to just send over whoever you feel like on the teleportation Nights, and pull the other side's teleporter on pulling Nights, but it's unlikely that many people will agree with that, given that just about everyone who isn't for my plan is for screwing the other town over (and their own town as well because of the fact that they can do it too).

[DocPotter]

Mod: Is Fishy's 'Push:Push:Pull:Pull' allowed. I suppose I'm asking if the 'block of three' is a floating block of any three consecutive teleporter actions, or actions 1:2:3, 4:5:6, etc.

[Kairyuu]

My case on you is based on the method with which you discounted the very idea of my strategy (which you're still doing now), as well as the OMGUS vote. I see no better cases, do you?

Yes. The method in which I "discounted the very idea of your strategy", aka I say that teleporter's won't want to claim and it's boring if they did. You think this is suspicious, I gather, because mafia might be motivated to step in and derail your plan. But since your plan is unworkable, why would I need to step in and derail it? This is what I just said in the last post btw.

Do you consider retaliation votes to be a scumtell?

Is your case on me just a "there isn't anything better at the moment" case?

See the problem is that it isn't unworkable. It would just require teamwork between the towns. Also, "because it's boring" and "unworkable" are two very different things. I see you've realized that the flippant attitude you originally adopted to blow off my idea was a bad move. Good for you. Keep working on that.

And yes, OMGUS is scummy.

Finally, if there isn't anything better at the moment, that means it's the best lynch available. If there was someone I considered a better lynch than you, I'd change my vote, but either way, my vote means I'm helping to lynch you.

@Doc: If the Push:Push:Pull:Pull is then followed with Push:Push then there's no reason why it shouldn't be allowed.

[zorastermod]

Mod: Is Fishy's 'Push:Push:Pull:Pull' allowed. I suppose I'm asking if the 'block of three' is a floating block of any three consecutive teleporter actions, or actions 1:2:3, 4:5:6, etc.

No it is not. See clarification 1.

[Kairyuu]

Ugh.

@Mod:

I request that that rule be amended. It essentially forces the cycle to stay exactly the same once the first pull is used (Eg: Once P:T:T is used, it MUST be followed with P:T:T or the ratio will be broken, and the scum will be able to predict exactly when they can use their own teleport to maximize the damage). Otherwise it's impossible to keep the ratio. The ability to make it unpredictable is kinda crucial.

[DocPotter]

Kair. That simpler idea might work better. Get close to lynch, announce that it's a pull night and see if the other teleporter wants to claim.

Still dependant on the replacement teleporter claiming, but could work without it I suppose. Actually someone fake claiming could be easily outed by a counter claim. Pull one lynch one and follow up lynch dependant on the flip.

No synching or co-ordination problems either.

This one does bear thinking about.

Unvote

[zorastermod]

@Mod: I request that that rule be amended. It essentially forces the cycle to stay exactly the same once the first pull is used (Eg: Once P:T:T is used, it MUST be followed with P:T:T or the ratio will be broken, and the scum will be able to predict exactly when they can use their own teleport to maximize the damage). Otherwise it's impossible to keep the ratio. The ability to make it unpredictable is kinda crucial.

Sorry. The rule works as it's intended, and actually changing rules, especially after in game discussion is reserved for truly broken rules. That it might disadvantage or limit a role is by design. Consider that "no action" is always a possibility.

[Jack]

See the problem is that it isn't unworkable. It would just require teamwork between the towns. Also, "because it's boring" and "unworkable" are two very different things. I see you've realized that the flippant attitude you originally adopted to blow off my idea was a bad move. Good for you. Keep working on that.

How is the plan that you just said was better than yours different from what I suggested? Minus pulling the most townie player from the other team, which I didn't address but is an obvious extension.

Your plan that I argued against didn't take into account the fact that the mafia were on different teams and wanted to eliminate each other.

And yes, OMGUS is scummy.

Why is that? I don't see how you could legitimately argue for it statistically, psychologically, or theoretically. Perhaps traditionally and dogmatically.

Finally, if there isn't anything better at the moment, that means it's the best lynch available. If there was someone I considered a better lynch than you, I'd change my vote, but either way, my vote means I'm helping to lynch you.

Yes, you lynch who you think is most likely to be mafia, however this is not the point. I implied that your case was weak, and part of your defense was "do you have anything better". That is a weak defense as I pointed out. It concedes a lack of merit in the case itself.

[Kairyuu]

Well fuck. That kinda makes any plan we've made so far rather unfeasible without modification.

@all (Both towns, so someone please quote): If we decide to go with fishy's plan, 5th Day will probably be the most important Day to have the confirmed townie, so I propose a P:T:T sequence for both towns. It means we essentially waste our first pull on the first Night so as to not narrow it down by much, but in all likelyhood D5 will be endgame or close to it, so a pull at that point may mean the difference between winning and losing (also, waiting any longer to use the first pull and we might not even get to USE our second).

[Kairyuu]

@pops(other universe): I made the request because the rule as it stands makes little sense and gives the scum more power in a game they already have craptons of power in. I respect the mod's decision, but I feel I was not out of line to make the request.

@Jack: It is better because it allows for the pulling of CONFIRMED townies WHENEVER POSSIBLE, which you absolutely refuse to acknowledge. In addition, my personal revision is that we DON'T try to use the teleporter as a vig unless doing so has a chance of ending the game.

As for the scum being on different teams, STOP REPEATING THIS WHEN I'VE ADDRESSED IT TWICE. Crosskilling is statistically improbable even in a game where both killing factions MUST kill in the same game. Giving the possibility of killing between 2 games, the likelihood of both scumteams targeting the same universe AND/OR of one scumteam hitting a member of the other is astronomically low. The fact that your plan literally relies on that happening instead of the scumteams simply assuring that they won't hit each other and decimating a town together, or just ignoring the fact that they've lost a member until they can win by pulling said member back, both of which are more likely, shows that you've either not thought about your plan AT ALL or you're deliberately trying to hurt the town.

For the OMGUS point, the gut reaction when scum is suspected is "Oh shit I've gotta turn this around on him/her before he/she gathers support." If the scum is not thinking properly, this will often lead to "revenge" voting, aka OMGUS.

Here's the thing on your last point that you blatantly ignored. When I'm voting someone, I want them lynched. I don't care if my case is one point or a step-by-step analysis of everything they've said, I still want them dead. If my read changes, or someone else steps up as being more scummy, then I'll move the vote, but as it stands the best case around is you, and that's why you have my vote. I haven't conceded shit. Trying to argue semantics isn't going to get you anywhere with me.

Die scum die.