Open 193 - Friends and Enemies: It's over!

[Head_Honcho]

Votecount:

hitogoroshi(1): Ojanen
xRECKONERx(5): Debonair Danny DiPietro, Zorblag, SerialClergyman, Albert B. Rampage, Vi
Vi(1): Sando

Not Voting(3): VP Baltar, hitogoroshi, xRECKONERx
With 10 alive it's 6 to lynch.

[Ojanen]

So Ojanen was sick twice and traveling during D1, if I remember correctly. I'll ratchet down my expectations accordingly, I guess.

Err, wonder where you got that.
Have you read quick and dirty mafia by any chance?
I was sick on D1 here but have used no excuses here other than saying that once and haven't had absences really, though perhaps some lack of impact.

Ironically time to use the traveling one though. I'm on low access for the weekend. Running 17 hours late due to a blizzard/stuck in transit and will break the heart of someone if I use time tonight to play mafia.

Ojanen. Has your opinion changed on SerialClergyman yet?

No. He hasn't done squat today. Why are you asking?

My hammer on charlatan was simply because I wanted D1 to end. I wanted a flip, I wanted some information on which to go on. Charlatan really had nobody coming to his aid (as in, actively defending him as town, IIRC), so to me that meant he was either scum or VT. If he was mason, I felt like people would've been quite opposed to his lynch. And, IMO, since a PCE lynch didn't look like it was going to happen, lynching probable-scum/at-the-least-VT was the second best option.

Reck, to clarify, is this what went through your head right up until the moment you were hammering?

Sucks so bad that I'm in the same place as with charlatan wagon again.
Reck could well be scum and there's a bunch of arguments I can relatively easily see against him, but not sure yet if he's scummy scummy or susceptible to peer pressure (cause I was feeling it end of D1 too)+not big on memory. Gut isn't convinced either way and that's all that's ever been worth anything in my reads. Aaaargh.
Wagon seems more likely to contain bussing if on scum, a good sign. Amished kill is a semi-valid point.
I totally dislike Vi's vote.
More later, gotta go.

[xRECKONERx]

Scum-Sando would've just let me get lynched.

Scum-DDD would give the whole 'hey guys reck was a good vote yesterday' shpiel without doing any real scumhunting. For people to say I have no interest in doing any scumhunting is pretty hypocritical when DDD doesn't either; furthermore, I play sporadically and offbeat in all my games recently. it's far more fun than wall of texts. I hate wall of texts. I like short bursts of text that accomplish the same muthalickin' goal.

so yea.

Vote: DDD

kthx

[VP Baltar]

Hey, ABR, when did you start to find Reckoner scummy? How confident are you that he's scum?

Vi, why put Reckoner at L-1 so early in the day? ( I think I have an idea, but I want to hear your thought process)

[VP Baltar]

Forgot to add:

DDD, when do you plan to actually get involved in this game? Have you found anything scummy to run with yet?

[Vi]

Vi, what about me moving off Charlatan do you find scummy?

The second question will be better answered when you explain more to me about why you're voting Porky beyond

Yeah you're just avoiding the question now, I gave my reasons, you refused to answer what about me moving off Charlatan you found scummy?

Actually, I wanted to make sure I had everything right before I said what was on my mind.

Your reasons for voting PCE are more or less useless.
*While PCE's vote wasn't technically random - victory for semantics - seeing as it's not Page 5 anymore I don't see how it's scummy so much as "lol u did something wrong".
*Active lurking is fair as mentioned before, but it makes for good scapegoating - especially since you aren't applying your a-lurker search elsewhere, like DDD.
*Saying that PCE "avoided" the charlatan wagon is not altogether different from saying you're "avoiding" the xRx wagon, considering you're both giving the same reason.

Plus you had no discernible reason for jumping off charlatan after your late vote (to make a late vote on PCE, of course). So to answer your question,

almost everything

.

---

Vi jumps on with 'well he's defending himself against this exhaustive case!'

The point: You also missed it.

About half of the xRx case is "you can't really be this wrong with a straight face" (i.e. pushing both PCE and charlatan as equally scum, except with %s attached) where defense isn't that important. The other half is how he's doing it again today. It's also worth noting (this being

the point

) that while xRx is trying to defend himself, he's not trying to scumhunt.

You're apparently his top suspect, and while I like that there's no actual reasoning or even a vote behind that sentiment. Since PCE replaced out, he's got... nada. And he's not trying. I would expect a Townie on the verge of being lynched to at least try to point us in the right direction.

Cut by xRx. I'm not totally impressed.

To address the elephant in the room, yes, my vote put him at L-1. Do you (or anyone for that matter) expect xRx to be hammered prematurely?

---

No. He hasn't done squat today. Why are you asking?

Technically he

has

done squat. What do you think of his push on xRx?
I asked because I expected you to have something to say about him if he was near the top of your suspect list (plus at the end of D1 I had a Town read on him, and am curious about dissenting opinions).

Now that I've said that, I have a question for SerialClergyman.

As for lynch suspects, I think Ojanen, Reck or Porkchop are all there for me.

This was your first post of D2. I can see a line about Ojanen before, but when did xRx or PCE come onto your suspect list?

Ojanen: Do you still find hitochop to be scum? What is your opinion on Sando?

---

@mod: Please prod DDD and Trollblag

---

Cut by xRx:

Scum-Sando would've just let me get lynched.

How do you know?

For people to say I have no interest in doing any scumhunting is pretty hypocritical when DDD doesn't either

But this isn't about DDD. This is about you.

[Vi]

Simulposted(ish) by VP Baltar.

Answer implied in 680.

[xRECKONERx]

Vi, think about it: Sando hammers me, he's already getting a ton of suspicion anyway, he's just basically a fall guy for the scum. I don't know why he'd try to start a complete counter-wagon (unless he's my scumbuddy) as scum. It's a far too laborious tactic to try and clear himself if he's scum. Plus, he pointed out DDD's weaksauce reasoning, which is a very nice catch.

[Vi]

Vi, think about it: Sando hammers me, he's already getting a ton of suspicion anyway, he's just basically a fall guy for the scum. I don't know why he'd try to start a complete counter-wagon (unless he's my scumbuddy) as scum. It's a far too laborious tactic to try and clear himself if he's scum. Plus, he pointed out DDD's weaksauce reasoning, which is a very nice catch.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to be the only person calling Sando scummy.

Saying that Sando pointed out DDD's weaksauce reasoning is more than a bit of a stretch.

Not liking the way this lynch is happening on Reck;
DDD starts with 'well Reck was a good lynch yesterday'
Zorblag jumps on with 'pretty sure Reck is scum'
SC joins with 'hey let's lynch Reck and not post reasoning'
Albert jumps on with... nothing
Vi jumps on with 'well he's defending himself against this exhaustive case!'

The last 3

are the ones that really worry me.

This is the first time Sando has seriously mentioned DDD throughout the game... and to frame this as an accusation is laughable.

As for starting a complete counterwagon, speaking frankly it was either that or join your wagon. (Or keep his cheesy PCE vote)

[xRECKONERx]

Pointing it out doesn't mean he was focused on it. It means he brought it up and I was like "Oh, shit, I didn't notice that".

And I could've sworn there was more under-the-surface-tension with Sando. Maybe not though. In any case, I don't see scum going out of their way to stop a wagon on a townie no matter what the circumstances are. And even in the hypothetical situation that I was scum, it'd be suicidal for my scumbuddy Sando to blatantly try to counterwagon at this point.

Yeah, Sando's town, no matter which was you slice it.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Forgot to add:

DDD, when do you plan to actually get involved in this game? Have you found anything scummy to run with yet?

I started the wagon on Rec today that's got him up to L-1, no credit for that? I mean I could've made loud noises and repeated things from yesterday and called it a case, but I think it's fairly obvious that the facts speak for themselves considering how the wagon has come together.

I've tried to question ABR, but he won't answer my question, no credit for that either? The only way I know to possibly get him to engage me is to repeat the question (which I've done) and try and bandwagon him except I believe voting for Rec to be a better course of action which doesn't leave me with much recourse.

[hitogoroshi]

Iso Spectacular, Part III

This episode of Iso Spectacular is brought to you by the letter 'S'

Sando

So Amish and PCE both were gunning for Sando.

I can see why PCE would, though. Sando's only 'suspicion' for the early game was him demanding a response from PCE because...his random vote was not truly random? And he's demanding a response to THAT, over and over and over?

Finally he drops the damn point and switches to charlatan – but just kidding! He goes back to PCE two iso posts later! And then the next post has this...thing:

@Sando: I love how you swap votes while still leaving major suspicion about Char (your previous vote) while giving absolutely no reasoning for you to vote for PCE even though you're "more than happy to switch"

Seriously? ISO me and you'll find my reasoning. It was a couple of pages back, I'll give you that, but I was voting PCE for the first 15 odd pages... This is hardly out of the blue.

I'm ISO-ing you right now, and your 'reasoning' is the same stupid point you dragged along with you for the aforementioned 15 pages. You conceded to Zorblag it was old and not worth voting for, so what exactly made you switch back?

Oh and he starts D2 with this.

Vote: PCE

Reasons haven't changed.

Reasons haven't existed!

And then finally he goes for Vi for hopping on the Reck wagon. Hey, I appreciate the concern that I should be able to finish first, but I don't see what you're the one calling for it since apparently nothing will ever absolve this slot of the terrible, awful crime of giving reasons for an rvs vote.

This is the part where I would vote Sando if I didn't want to finish every ISO before voting.

Scien (and xXRECKONERXx

And here it is, the wagon confirmed townies love and that I will probably love.

Scien didn't really post content. Lots of answering dumb questions and asking dumb questions. If someone wants to disagree with me, feel free, but when I look I can't find anything of merit from this slot besides the meta-bickering I have long since been sick of reading.

(This is the part where I point out that if someone wants to make a meta point, package the link and give the relevant posts in a nice and tidy package, because I'm sure as hell not going to dig unless I'm being told it's very important.)

And now for Reck. I think you guys have done a lot of the relevant dissecting, but I still want to say how I don't like that his 432 scumlist is the biggest wagon and two lurkers – seems like a pretty easy way to take any wagon that pops up.

And sure enough, a PCE wagon pops up and he takes it.

It is time for me to make a case on Reck using only quotes he said. (I will bold for emphasis though.)

On PCE vs char:

I feel like either one or the other is scum. I see no connections between the two to link one to the other, so I don't think they're going to be on the same scumteam.

charlatanscum + PCEscum.

Why isn't charlatan going for PCE?

Why isn't PCE going for charlatan?

Cause they're scumbuddies?

Ojanen was at first a hard read, but her tendency to lean towards the PCE wagon makes me think she's town... scum would've just

gone with the easy wagon imo

Eh, what the hell.

Unvote, Vote: charlatan.

Hammah.

Yeah I love the Reck wagon as much as you guys. I'm not sure if I like it more than Sando, though, and I really don't agree with Reck's reasoning that Sando has to be town. Tactically, with reck-town sando-scum it might be worth being a fall guy to hammer, but Sando does not strike me as the type who would willingly do that.

Serial Clergyman

Clergyman has very readable posts, which is welcome after charlatan, but it's also a bit weird to iso-read him because he tends to be responding to people directly above him without quotes.

He spent pretty much all of D1 pushing the charlatan wagon and not liking people who supported it without voting. He posts a lot, they are readable posts, but it's the damndest thing that as soon as I try to dig in to them they seem to just kind of float away. I'm trying to find something to pin SC to in my mind and besides 'charlatan wagon d1, reckoner wagon d2' I really can't.

What is there? A lot of talking about meta. A lot of pleasant conversation. I'm all for keeping a jovial atmosphere but damn, it's really unsettling to me to read this ISO. The problem with this is that I haven't ever played with SC. Could someone who has please go in to SC-ISO and give me their thoughts? Because to be honest SC really, really unsettles me and while it's nothing as definite as what I have on Sando and Reck it's certainly there. I can't push anything on SC because I don't know what it is I want to push against, but when anyone posts any suspicions on SC I am going to read them over and over and see if they've managed to articulate what I can't.

So yeah, pretty much the letter S is where my suspicions are found. (Scum start with S. coincidence? You decide.) Finishing the set with Vi, VP, and Zorblag today or early tomorrow.

[Vi]

I mean I could've made loud noises and repeated things from yesterday and called it a case,

...and instead you made soft noises and referenced things from yesterday and called it an argument.

You mentioned Sando earlier. Do you still feel the same way about him? Do you feel any need at all to do/ask anything at this time?

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I mean I could've made loud noises and repeated things from yesterday and called it a case,

...and instead you made soft noises and referenced things from yesterday and called it an argument.

You mentioned Sando earlier. Do you still feel the same way about him? Do you feel any need at all to do/ask anything at this time?

Let's just make the assumption that everything I do or don't do is in fact what I intend to do; that way I can minimize answering stupid questions and you can maximize the amount of time you whine at me for my terrible play.

Why would I feel any different about Sando? His response to your points wasn't terribly inspiring and then he tries to chip my preferred bandwagon for its lack of reasons, but about five people already all came to the same consensus (and they're all the people I respect and Albert) so it appears to me that Sando's primary interest is not in evaluating Rec as scum and instead in bringing suspicion to some people on the wagon.

[Head_Honcho]

Zorblag has been prodded.

[SerialClergyman]

Vi - xRx came onto my scumlist during the wagon hopping yesterday and PCE was always lightly scummy, I just thought the charlatan argument wasn't resolved

I will admit that the wagon on Porkchop has some merit though. He asks charlatan why he would unvote and leave his vote up in the air rather than vote his next top suspect but he also hasn't moved his vote from the RVS stage. He says it's unreasonable of DDD to hide behind a playstyle of his own choosing, but that doesn't help anything really - it's certainly not an argument for DDDscum, more just DDDinconsiderate or something like that.

ABR, PCE is up there as scummy for me too but I'm not done with charlatan yet and I'm frustrated you'd pull yet another wagon to distract. Do you have a town read on charlatan now or are you just more confident about PCE?

This is the third game I'm playing with Reck and I can't make heads or tails of his play. Honestly, it's frustrating me to no end and I'm wondering whether it's worth chickening out on the play and taking a bit more time on this.

Where's Albert?

[Albert B. Rampage]

I think we should hammer Reck.

[Sando]

Sando's primary interest is not in evaluating Rec as scum and instead in bringing suspicion to some people on the wagon.

Well to say reck is scum and vote him ends the day, so yeah, I thought more evaluation of the wagon was needed. You seem to agree that the reasoning on the wagon is weak, at least that's what I get from accusing me of following 5 peoples views on the wagon? The reason I pointed out SC/ABR/Vi is how their votes came on, and when they came on. This is the second time ABR seems to have blindly followed Serials 'hey lets vote this guy for no reason', and Serial isn't normally like this on D2. Vi's vote on Reck is just horrible, it's an opportunistic vote onto a wagon with little to no reasoning. Do you think that a wagon should only be analysed if/when it results in a lynch? That seems like a lot of wasted opportunity for scumhunting.

For those wondering about Serial, his D1 play is pretty typical of him, and his D1 play is pretty much identical between scum and town (ie, good luck catching Serial-scum D1). His previously used D1 playstyle, which is what I was questioning him over yesterday, was to try and clear people in his own mind and lynch pretty much anyone else. It was quite effective, as you can see in our previous game, where his attempts at doing this made him correctly call both a townie and scum on D1. For him to move away from this strikes me as odd, and it had fairly bad results. He seems to be taking the 'lynch anyone I don't think is town' from his previous playstyle, without actually bothering to try and clear anyone as town, with predictable results. He's not scumhunting, he's not questioning and pressuring people, all of which he's actually very good at. His D2 play and the light it shines on his D1 play is looking very scummy to me.

Reck, there has been a fair amount of tension surrounding me, but a lack of votes. I'm not sure what to make of it really. I don't really see how not hammering makes me a townie though...

Also, it's not just the fact that PCE 'random' voted non-randomly, it's more that he active lurked all through that period, then reacted with an overly aggressive and very poorly reasoned defence of his random vote. A simple 'yeah that random vote technically wasn't random, was just for a silly/meaningless reason in RVS' would have sufficed. Instead he decides that I'm pushing something that is old-news, despite not answering a simple question for the whole time, and vigorously defends the idea that his vote was random, which is in no way was. His response was way out of line with how I would have expected a townie to react.

[Vi]

Vi's vote on Reck is just horrible, it's an opportunistic vote onto a wagon with little to no reasoning.

(...)

Also, it's not just the fact that PCE 'random' voted non-randomly, it's more that he (...) reacted with an overly aggressive and very poorly reasoned defence of his random vote. A simple 'yeah that random vote technically wasn't random, was just for a silly/meaningless reason in RVS' would have sufficed. Instead he decides that I'm pushing something that is old-news, despite not answering a simple question for the whole time, and vigorously defends the idea that his vote was random, which is in no way was. His response was way out of line with how I would have expected a townie to react.

So are you illiterate, or do you just not read my posts?

SerialClergyman. You suggested this wagon on xRx in the first place. Now that things have happened because of your suggestion, I think now would be an appropriate time to ask why and whether you got what you wanted.

VP Baltar, is there nothing to respond to?

[SerialClergyman]

I felt like of the wagon yesterday, even though it was on town, that the first 5 members were all pretty townie. That's VP, you, me, Amished and Troll. The last 2, Albert and Reck, didn't come accross like that. The switch to PCE and then the charge back seemed odd, and I've asked Albert what the purpose of his big post denouncing charalatan and voting him at the end of D1 was without response.

But Reck's movements were also poor and his suspicions are all over the place. I started the wagon to see what sort of gut support there was for a Reck wagon. Turns out there's absolutely plenty. This is not necessarily a good sign. It either means he's obv scum and me calling for a wagon awakened a bit of gut in people, or it means that he's a good mislynch and the opportunists have popped on board.

As much as I was an instigator, as far as I'm aware I've given no reasons for anyone to join the wagon, so it's not like I've pushed it other than give people a license to join it. VP made a case and joined directly after I suggested it and Albert now seems very keen to lynch, both somewhat out of nowhere.

I'm more and more convinced that DDD is town. I think sando is quite possibly town, unless he's going for an epic derail with a buddy at L-1.

Ojanen is still straddling them iddle on every argument, it seems. It's hard when she's semi-VLA, and in Reck's case I too am sitting on the fence I suppose, but you know:

Sucks so bad that I'm in the same place as with charlatan wagon again.
Reck could well be scum and there's a bunch of arguments I can relatively easily see against him, but not sure yet if he's scummy scummy or susceptible to peer pressure (cause I was feeling it end of D1 too)+not big on memory. Gut isn't convinced either way and that's all that's ever been worth anything in my reads. Aaaargh.

:/

You know what? I'm going to go with my gut and

unvote, vote Albert

I could be completely off base about this but a few things disturb me. I don't know why Albert would vote charlatan with a large case and then the next day talk about how right he was about charlatan being town. Then the 'I would have defended him if he was more useful' and 'his badness was good for a vote but not a lynch' when his vote was at l-1.

I don't like how Albert has been rushing every lynch, calling for deadlines and the like. This is the exact opposite of behaviour he displayed in the ongoing previously mentioned where he wanted to use as much time as possible to gain information.

I don't feel Albert's pressure is the usual townxplosion that I get from him, either. A bit of arrogance and strutting does not a town Albert make.

And I don't like Albert's turning on Reck, who he was siding with all day 1. Especially because Albert has repeatedly said that Reck's scumminess has been all game, not just D2.

Perhaps this is a day early, but that's what I'm feeling at the moment.

[Albert B. Rampage]

It was clear to me and anyone else watching the game at that point that charlatan was going to be lynched no matter what. So let's go back to voting RECK thanks.

[Vi]

@SerialClergyman: Are you going to respond to Sando?

[SerialClergyman]

I wasn't particularly planning on it.

Albert, even if I completely accepted that, why then did you feel you ha to vote him with an accompanying page-long case/lecture/whatever?

[Albert B. Rampage]

Probably to justify a bad vote.

When I talked about him being a good vote, that was not referring to L-1 vote I placed on him.

In fact, I'm surprised you missed that. And I find that very scummy.

Unvote, vote SerialClergyman

What, you wanna go? You and me? Outside, now.

[SerialClergyman]

My obvious raw sexual magnetism has apparantly reached new heights. Those blue eyes

are

dreamy...