Open 201 - Fire & Ice Mafia ~Over~

[Pomegranate]

Votecount 1.3 (As of replacement {Post 73})

mavsfan -1- kmd4390
farside22 -1- SaintKerrigan
animorpherv1 -1- DTMaster

Not voting: Everyone Else

Currently

NEUTRAL

with activity in this game.

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Welcome Gheb!

[Slaxx]

Sorry. Work+Tax returns today, saw the deadline and confirmed in between. Oh. And Ameobas. Because they rock.

As far as suspicions go, its hard to tell due to most of the conversation being attributed to game mechanics speculation. On that same note, I'm going to

vote pomegranate

because I dont know what the heck a pomegranate even looks like.

[Kmd4390]

and i agree that setup speculation really doesn't get you anywheres... particularly with a mod like CSL(and i mean that in the best possible way)

Um. Open game. The Mod has nothing to do with it.

@KMD
1. If both scum hit the same target, nothing happens according to that quote. So there is more then one explanation for why there could be a failed kill. Its more beneficial for scum to try and get that person lynched since it could be the opposing scum faction.

Right, so the doc is useless.

DTM, I get confused when you refer to SaintKerrigan as Sarah.

Same here.. Took me a while to even figure out that was who he meant.

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Hmm. We need to start talking about who is scum.

farside22 - Leaning town. Went back to see what I had on DT. Didn't see any problems, so saw my vote as weak. Voted me. The rest has been doc discussion, but looks like it's coming from a town point of view.

xofelf - Not sure at all. Basically "is here" and that's all we get. I'll have a better read on her later. I know xofelf IRL and have played quite a few games with her.

SaintKerrigan -Said he saw what I did on DT. I believe him because he unvoted after DT explained. The Farside vote looks like a way to lead us away from the doc distraction. Instinct wants to say town, but then again we have multiple scum groups and scum can't kill other scum, so scum will scumhunt just like town. I'm gonna call this one a slight town read.

kmd4390 - Obvtown

Pomegranate -Saw my serious vote and asked for reasoning. Didn't see what I was looking at on DT. Leaning town because of the hesitance to just follow my vote, which she acknowledged.

TheLonging - lol, said he wouldn't be around, but has been anyway. Has done nothing aside from contribute to the doc discussion. Maybe scum?

animorpherv1 -Confirmed and then gave and obvious piece of advice. Scum read.

Slaxx -Confirmed after the game's start. Explained why, saw basically just setup discussion, and random voted. I actually like that move. Town read.

Gheb -*Shrug*

mavsfan41 -Still waiting to see why he confirmed after the game started and didn't give us anything else. Scum read.

DTMaster -I'm really liking DT so far.

The Quintastic One -A lot of talking, but really hasn't said a thing yet. Scum read.

To recap, here's my scumlist (Towniest at top, scummiest at bottom):
Confirmed town:
Kmd

Leaning town:
Farside
DT
Slaxx
Saint
Pom

No read:
xofelf
Gheb

Maybe scum?:
TheLonging

Scum read:
TQO
Animorph
mavsfan

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K, dinner time. I want comments either on my list or people's own opinions.

[Pomegranate]

I don't see why mavsfan and xofelf are in different categories.

I agree about TQO.

[Gheb]

I think it's OK if we have something more productive to talk about than random votes at this point. Even though I'm not a big fan of role speculation (or role's mechanics) discussion is being made, which is always a good start. As long as we make sure that Doc speculation doesn't dominate the whole day I don't see too big a problem. Just don't do stupid stuff like claiming or leaving too obvious breadcrumbs.

On that note I don't see where all these confusions are coming from and I will keep a close look at that and what the cause of said confusions are. The mechanics of the game pretty much confirm that the doc has no use as an investigator. There could always be a mafia cross-shot and with 4 mafia players there are realistic chances that at least one mafia faction gets hit during the night phase. Point is that as long as both mafia factions are in play there is no way to confirm a townie merely from a doc safe.

Please let's not make this more confusing or complicated than it has to be. The purpose of the doctor is to protect players, not to confirm townies (even if he has that ability under certain circumstances) and the somewhat different set-up doesn't change this fact in the slightest.

Although the mafia could use the doc with no kill and leading to WIFOM.

Doubt it. Keep in mind that each mafia faction does not only have the town as their enemy but also the opposing mafia party as well. An intentional misshot would be a pretty stupid thing to do in such a scenario especially since the WIFOM doesn't tip things in only one mafia party's favour but both of them in this case. By doing that one mafia party would also help the other mafia faction. Don't think they'd do that.

If the doc protects someone and a player dies. That player is either town or scum. However depending on if fire or ice killed one player it will at least confirm for the doc that the player they saved wasn't part of that mafia group.

I don't see how this is the case. Either I'm reading it wrong, it's worded poorly or it's flat-out wrong. Leaning the latter. Both mafia parties are immune to night kills as far as I'm aware, which means that a succesful doc safe wouldn't confirm anything. If I'm wrong you should re-write that part because it's confusing the hell out of me.

[Gheb]

KMD, why do you point out who you think is particularily scummy? If you are town it only gives the mafia an idea whom you trust and a better idea whom to kill toNight.

[Gheb]

Eh that was badly worded. I mean that you should keep your town reads for yourself, especially this eary. You do NOT want to give the mafia any information they don't have.

[TheLonging]

I'm studying for midterms, but I try to come on when I can. Not a lot of chances but whatever.

Why do you like Slaxx's random vote Kmd? From what I've played, random voting long after RVS isn't a good play.

[CSL]

I just noticed that mavsfan is activelurking. I, as a mod, will not stand for this. Prodding him. If I don't see a response from him when I get home tomorrow, I will replace him.

[animorpherv1]

[quote=kmd]animorpherv1 -Confirmed and then gave and obvious piece of advice. Scum read. [/quote] Is that all? I don't find giving out advice that was given in the post above scummy.

[farside22]

Jim targets Jill. Tom targets Jim. Bob protects Jim.
Jill dies. Jim doesn't die because he was targeted by Ice Mafia. Therefore the doctor was null and void in this case and we learn nothing.

Or let's say Bob protects Jill. We don't know if Jill is townie or mafia because no one died. Even if doctor claimed that he protected Jill, Jill could probably be mafia. Am I missing the point you're making? In your latest point you're just speculating. We might know we don't know, and speculating will get us nowhere.

Ah I missed that mafia cannot cross kill. That wasn't in the last fire/ice game if I recall. So even if someone doesn't die the doc doesn't know if he protected the right person or if one of the scum teams tried to kill another scum team.


SK: What did you think was speculation? We are discussing the mechanics of the game as far as I can tell and if the doc is useful or not.
Which DTMaster had brought up and I didn't find scummy and explain why not.

[Kmd4390]

I don't see why mavsfan and xofelf are in different categories.

It's typical of xofelf when she's busy at the beginning of a game to post a "hey, I'm here. Glanced over some things. Here's my quick opinion that doesn't say much. Another post some other time" regardless of alignment. I'll be able to read her once she gives us content. Mavs showed up and confirmed without offering anything and I'm not sure why. My opinion may change once I get a response from him.

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Post 79 (Gheb) is a lot of words and all about stuff that I don't want to talk about anyway.

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Gheb, in response to Post 90, um maybe so I can try and convince the rest of the town to lynch the right players?

As far as town reads, meh, scum aren't going to say "well Kmd says X is town, so let's not kill them" unless the next day is LYLO. Early in the game, I don't see the problem.

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Longing, we didn't really get an RVS because of the setup discussion. Random voting is more productive than the setup discussion. It gets us on the right track.

What gave you the impression that it's "long after RVS"?

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CSL, so I know I'm not breaking your rule in the future, can you define for me what the difference is between lurking and active lurking?

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Animorph, you told the doc not to claim if they think they successfully protected a player. Any competent doc wouldn't do that in the first place. It was your only content post at the time and basically said nothing. You're avoiding contributing to any kind of discussion and I find that scummy.

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Farside, yeah, town has to lynch successfully 4 times and the doc has lost a lot of power. These rules make a town win very difficult. It's ok though. I have faith in this player list.

[Pomegranate]

Farside, yeah, town has to lynch successfully 4 times and the doc has lost a lot of power. These rules make a town win very difficult. It's ok though. I have faith in this player list.

But since the mafia oppose each other and cannot cross-kill, it's hard for everyone.

[Pomegranate]

It's typical of xofelf when she's busy at the beginning of a game to post a "hey, I'm here. Glanced over some things. Here's my quick opinion that doesn't say much. Another post some other time" regardless of alignment. I'll be able to read her once she gives us content. Mavs showed up and confirmed without offering anything and I'm not sure why. My opinion may change once I get a response from him.

Okay, makes sense. I don't know her meta well (it's been a while).

[The Quintastic One]

I agree with Pomegranate. The set up is hard for any specific team to win. There's two different mafia, they don't know who they are, so the best we can hope for during night phase is that the Mafia target each other and the Doctor makes sure to protect someone who's vanilla town. That way no protections are wasted, and Mafia can start to become frustrated if they go too many night phases without a successful kill. It's not like all 4 mafia can gang up on a bandwagon lynch, they don't know each other and can't possibly strategize that kind of gang warfare plan.

So on that note, I disagree with KMD4390 on post 77. I believe the Doc is very useful, and shouldn't be simply dismissed as useless. Protecting the right person at the right time means we won't have to solely hope that Mafia only target each other during the night phase.

I've read the set up that says that Town needs to successfully lynch 4 times in a row to win, which would be an ideal victory for us anyway. But that's not entirely accurate. Because that hypothesis basically assumes that both Mafias are going to have successful kills every single night phase.

If anything, Mafia have a MUCH more frustrating time than the town. So I would look out for that, see who gets frustrated the quickest, and then pressure them and see who cracks.

[CSL]

Someone has PM'd me about what Post 83 said. PLEASE DISREGARD that post. I will have it struck after I post this.

farside22, TQO, and kmd4390 have all received a PUBLIC HUMILIATION for continuing to talk about the setup. Nothing happens this time, BUT PLEASE BE AWARE OF THE UNWRITTEN RULE "Do not try to outguess the mod, or his/her setup. It will get you nowhere."

[TheLonging]

Longing, we didn't really get an RVS because of the setup discussion. Random voting is more productive than the setup discussion. It gets us on the right track.

What gave you the impression that it's "long after RVS"?

Well what's long after RVS for me is when we're past the random voting part and actually talk about who might be scum and about the game. I guess I can see where you are coming from with random voting being more productive than setup discussion.

[Gheb]

As far as town reads, meh, scum aren't going to say "well Kmd says X is town, so let's not kill them" unless the next day is LYLO. Early in the game, I don't see the problem.

That's not what I'm getting at.
You say "hey, I think player X is town!" Does town benefit from that statement at all in terms of scumhunting? Not really. Mafia however does benefit from that information. You basically tell everybody in the game "hey, I trust this guy!". By saying that you paint a huge target for the mafia on that player's back. Why would you do that to a player that you think is town? You want to keep these guys around for as long as possible.

[farside22]

farside22, TQO, and kmd4390 have all received a PUBLIC HUMILIATION for continuing to talk about the setup. Nothing happens this time, BUT PLEASE BE AWARE OF THE UNWRITTEN RULE "Do not try to outguess the mod, or his/her setup. It will get you nowhere."

Not too humilate tbh. I'm answering questions and making notes which is part of scum hunting.

On that note I need to go back and reread something. I don't completely agree with kmd's list but kmd's recent comments do lead to town motive now.

unvote:

[farside22]

DTMaster said penguin
morph said penguin
DTmaster votes morph for picking penguin. A bit hypocritical me thinks.

SaintKerrigan: 4 people were discussing the setup why did you pick me amoung the people discussing it?

I agree with DTMaster post 68

morph - not really contributing/floating so far. null read
pomergrante/elf - both these players are on my null read as well. elf with one post offers nothing so far to the game
pom at least asking questions and trying to understand things.
so far like pomergrante more then elf.

gheb - post 80 I typically agree with you there but I'm starting to learn that those who start having town vibes and get a group that feels more townish win games more then not. Also since there are 2 seperate mafia groups you kind of hope they pick the same player to attack so there is no kill for the night.

I'm torn between morph and elf as people I feel haven't contributed. Elf states busy but I remember lurky people in MM game where she said nothing and was scum so she's just someone I will look out for more.
SK isn't seeming town to me at all and this is were I disagree with KMD. Someone following others and not saying too much but one liners is not a town read at all.
morph is another not much contributer who I dont' see really helping move this game forward or offering much as far as good advice even with the set up talks.

vote: SK

By far the person who has been here the most and offered less then anyone here. Following others like Kmd and places a vote on one player over others that are all discussing the setup.

[SaintKerrigan]

@ Farside: How am I following others? Doesn't the fact that I came up with the same thing KMD did about DTMaster on my own evidence that I wasn't following him? Not to mention I was the first person to say setup discussion wasn't helping us catch scum.

I voted you because you stood out to me amongst the setup talkers. Up until your most recent post, all of your in-game posts have been related to setup/game mechanics discussion, which is not particularly useful in the finding of scum. I find your case against me to be lacking. You claim I was here the most and contributing the least. I haven't been around all that much, and my posts, while not large, have not been related to useless speculation about the setup. That being said, you do seem to be moving away from the setup speculation, and I'm not picking up scumvibes on you from my gut.

Unvote: Farside22.

[DTMaster]

@Slaxx

Given that you read the game mechanics discussion, you still have nothing to comment on? I would have expected better analysis since we jumped right into discussion out of the gate.

@Gheb

Doubt it. Keep in mind that each mafia faction does not only have the town as their enemy but also the opposing mafia party as well. An intentional misshot would be a pretty stupid thing to do in such a scenario especially since the WIFOM doesn't tip things in only one mafia party's favour but both of them in this case. By doing that one mafia party would also help the other mafia faction. Don't think they'd do that.

Actually, this is more beneficial for town because scum cannot cross kill each other. If one mafia group outs themselves to the other, then it will be apparent for the town if this happens.

[farside22]

@SK if this is true about your vote on me what about thelonging?

@ Farside: How am I following others? Doesn't the fact that I came up with the same thing KMD did about DTMaster on my own evidence that I wasn't following him? Not to mention I was the first person to say setup discussion wasn't helping us catch scum.

Kmd was the first to vote DTMaster for unknown reason. You followed this saying you know (which neither of you pointed out by the way). So to me I don't like people say guess what I found.

Also your talking about setup speculation = scum but do you think one liners with no other discussion looks town?

[SaintKerrigan]

@ Farside: Depends on how you look at it, I guess. For me, the one liners are because I don't have a lot of time right now.

On that not,

V/LA for awhile due to school-related issues.

[Slaxx]

IDK what speculation is going to do for us, really. It just takes away from the scumhunting discussion. Mafia can't be NKed, if they both target the same person they live. I think laying the speculation out is going to wind out helping scum more anyway, all it does for us is generate WIFOM after we see the nk results, which will further derail from scumhunting. Hence my RVS.