Newbie 893 - Newbieland! (GAME OVER)

[Pomegranate]

Well, you ignored the corpse until you decided it was scummy that I ignored it.

I don't have time for a serious post now.

[chauchaudotcom]

One vote on you and you're already pulling out your 'omg don't lynch me' cards? To finish what should have happened yesterday.

Vote: Pomegranate

Also, Frost has lurked like no other this entire game. Majority of his posts are fluff.

I'll comment more tomorrow after a re-read.

[Nikanor]

SK, going around saying 'This vote was under-justified!' all day is not scumhunting. So far you've accused three players of doing just that. Now think, at least one of those people is town. And as soon as a townsperson does something that you think to be scummy, it ceases to be a scumtell and instead becomes anti-town.
What I'm trying to say is that since you are accusing at least one townsperson of being scum for something, and since that accusation is wrong, you cannot be sure about the other accusations being right.

[xRECKONERx]

D2 Vote Count #1

My Milked Eek (1): Gayle
Nikanor (1): SaintKerrigan
Gayle (1): Nikanor
Pomegranate (2): My Milked Eek, chauchaudotcom

Not voting (2): RayFrost, Pomegranate

[My Milked Eek]

MME, what would have trying to dissuade you have resulted in? I would have had to go into a full blown defense of Riza, which would result in someone attacking me for said defense and I would have to go into a full blown defense of myself. I hope you are going somewhere with this and are not just trying to distract town.

I'm not distracting the town, this discussion is. You apparently didn't like the wagon, cool. Say something yesterday instead of blaming us now. It's annoying to hear someone say "I told you so" when they could have put some effort into dissuading the bandwagonners. Not me in particular, you're correct, you'd have needed some really good arguments to persuade me, but if you look at how easily Nikanor and chau were coerced into joining my wagon, I just can't help but feel you could have done the same.

And one thing, I don't blame nor suspect people who white knight bandwagons, in fact this is imo a town tell and people who hesitate to do so on their town reads are also to blame for the town lynch. Believe it or not!

Right, the newbie playing newbish was scummier than the experienced player refusing to scum hunt.

lol, scumminess is subjective.

Let's put this more clearly. Someone with your experience should not have lynched a newbie for being newbish.

lol, she was scummy and stop appealing to my authority. I don't think my experience leads to me constantly lynching correct nor having the most absolute and correct opinion. Case in point here. And newbish behavior can also be scummy. Believe it or not!

What did you find scummy about TS?

I don't have my notes with me, but it was a tone of non-committedness, very much like pome, but the difference with pome is that pome made some protown posts whereas TS didn't. There might be other things, I'll get to that if I get home and find my notes.

You don't see what is scummy with "Abandon your suspicions and join my bandwagon, you can worry about your top suspect tomorrow."?

Yeah, sure.

If you leave out the context. It was 1 day before deadline.

Right, I shouldn't bother attacking the other ridiculously scummy players. Pom is the obvious lynch so I should just attack her and worry about the others on day 3.

lol, yet you find that one quote of me suspicious. Contradiction much?

How about this. Instead of wasting time fending off pathetic attacks like this, let me just go ahead and call your arguments ridiculous ahead of time.

I'll just leave this quote here and hope you realize the ridiculousness of yourself right here.

Who said anything about OMGUS? I said that the people you dislike are your loudest critic and the obvious lynch. Seems awfully scummy to me, OMGUS or not.

The quote I quoted was worded in such a way that you implied it was omgus. And the people I dislike were just the next on my list, omgus or not.

Bullshit. Nikanor had no reason to vote. RayFrost was vla. Pom was scum and was not going to get off that wagon. Chau wasn't on the wagon. Again, I'll state that I had absolutely no fucking reason to do anything but attack Pom.

Did you see how I persuaded chau and nik into voting for riza? See how easy it was? Why did you not use the same techniques to save your precious riza?

Like I said earlier, it is not my job to defend Riza. I said she wasn't scummy. I listed some points of your case I didn't agree with. I did not need to do anything more than that. Are you claiming you would have went about trying to tear the case apart instead of pursuing your top suspect?

Oh, sure it isn't your job to defend her, but not doing so also makes you a hypocrite for wagging your finger now. Calling it the most scummy wagon ever in history and not acting against when it is going strong doesn't add up.

...What the hell are you talking about?

You used the "you lynched a cop with your vote" argument. Which is moot.

Note that MME refused to summarize his case so that anyone could know what the fuck his keystones were.

Common sense and such. It is rather obvious that the points you brought up were inferior to other points I brought up, in fact half of those points weren't mine to begin with.



Anyways, we're going in circles here, so let's stop the ridiculous quote wars (you can still quote stuff you don't like, but please, it is getting a bit long winded) and reduce the discussion to:

- gayle finds riza to be newbish, I found her to be scummy
Experience has nothing to do with this. In fact, newbies get lynched left and right so much that it is neglectable.

- gayle says the wagon was the most scummy one in history
A serious case of "I told you so". It is really annoying me and not because it's against me, I would have been annoyed regardless of the subject. If gayle says it is the scummiest, I want to hear who was the most scummy one (or two) on the wagon and why.

- the case: gayle says pathetic
I say: not pathetic, if it was:
1 - easily disproven
2 - even town can make bad cases


I'm more interested in who gayle finds the most scummy on the wagon and why. More interested in the why arguments.

[chauchaudotcom]

RayFrost didn't have that good of a reason for voting Riza, either. More mindlessly following the bandwagon. FoS: RayFrost.

I believe Frost was actually the first to vote Riza.

MME - In your ISO 8 you present your Riza case. In which case it appears as if Riza and Theta are your top suspects. Originally in ISO 1+3 Pom and Riza were your top and suddenly you were sure Riza and Theta were scum. Can you explain to me what led to you to completely drop Pom off your radar?

Gayle - Can you outline your case in more thorough detail then MME? Because a lot of what MME did other people did as well. Frost and Nika both encouraged me to hammer as well. Pom, Frost and Nika all felt that Riza was a better candidate to lynch. In fact, MME was not the first to vote Riza at all. So why out of all the possible people is MME your top suspect?

[My Milked Eek]

Sure.

But a note first:
ISO 3 has me listing my top suspects:
- Riza
- ts
- pome

ISO 4 mentions it's in that order. So, I had Riza and TS as scum and pome as possibly scum on ISO 3.


The difference with ISO 1 is that ISO 3 is a reread done in greater detail, it says so in the first sentence, whereas ISO 1 was a quick skimread, which it says at the bottom of ISO 1.

"Pome dropped off my radar" as you put it (she just became #3) because of a few good posts she had made. I've lost my notes somewhere, but I think I noted a few down in my posts.

[SaintKerrigan]

@ ChauChau: You're right, RayFrost was the first person on the wagon. I accidentally counted his second vote as the original.

UnFoS: RayFrost.

@ Nikanor: You voted Riza without giving a reason. Riza happened to be the largest wagon at the time, and your vote put her at L-1. Riza turned out to be town. This makes your vote very suspect. Under-justified? Heck yeah. Scummy? Heck yeah. Combine that with activity that I've seen demonstrated before as scum, and you've certainly earned my vote.

And by the way, I know that at least one person that I voted or FoS today is town. That doesn't mean that an action committed by all three of those players isn't a scumtell. That also doesn't mean I'm going to vote all three of them based on that one scumtell. For instance, you've earned my vote based on multiple factors, and Pom's FoS was not just for having weak reasoning to join the bandwagon. RayFrost is the only person I FoS'ed solely for lack of reasoning, but upon looking back at the original vote I see he had a more-or-less justifiable (if erroneous) reason. That's a heck of a lot better than what you've got to say about your vote.

I'm still happy with my vote where it is.

[Nikanor]

That doesn't mean that an action committed by all three of those players isn't a scumtell.

Yes it does. If it doesn't hit scum every time, it's not a scumtell. It becomes a scum-or-town tell, which is completely useless. Basically, since you have accused all three of us of the same thing, you can't use that tell as proof that one of us is scum, since it is consistent for all of us. Once you're wrong about it once, you can't use it definitively anymore.

you've earned my vote based on multiple factors

Here are your reasons for voting me, as I understand them:
a) I gave no reasoning for my vote.
b) I have the same posting pattern as I have when I'm scum.
As I said above, a) is invalid. b) is invalid as well, since you don't know that I have the same posting pattern as town as I do as scum.
Do you understand these things?

[SaintKerrigan]

Yes it does. If it doesn't hit scum every time, it's not a scumtell. It becomes a scum-or-town tell, which is completely useless. Basically, since you have accused all three of us of the same thing, you can't use that tell as proof that one of us is scum, since it is consistent for all of us. Once you're wrong about it once, you can't use it definitively anymore.

We have a difference of opinion, then. I say if it can be used to catch scum, it's a scumtell. I don't think there's a 100% guaranteed scumtell that works every single time. Otherwise, scum would lose a heck of a lot more often, and the game would be nigh unplayable. This is starting to turn into a theory argument, so can we at least agree to disagree on this point before we turn it into a MD argument?

Here are your reasons for voting me, as I understand them:
a) I gave no reasoning for my vote.
b) I have the same posting pattern as I have when I'm scum.
As I said above, a) is invalid. b) is invalid as well, since you don't know that I have the same posting pattern as town as I do as scum.
Do you understand these things?

a) is not invalid. You just keep saying it is. Voting without reason at this stage of the game looks scummy to me, because it's opportunistic, and resembles behavior I think scum would employ. You voting for someone who wasn't around to defend himself (herself?) without a reason makes it even more suspect.
b) is also not invalid. Your behavior strongly resembles your scumplay. Am I supposed to just ignore that?

[Nikanor]

a) is not invalid. You just keep saying it is. Voting without reason at this stage of the game looks scummy to me, because it's opportunistic, and resembles behavior I think scum would employ. You voting for someone who wasn't around to defend himself (herself?) without a reason makes it even more suspect.

You're using it as one of two arguments for voting me. That means that 50% of your argument can be applied to others who we know to be town. Since we know that this argument can apply to both town and scum, we must ignore this half of the argument, leaving b) to be the only reason for why you're voting me over the other two.

b) is also not invalid. Your behavior strongly resembles your scumplay. Am I supposed to just ignore that?

The reason for why so many people think meta arguments are bad: People try to use meta without knowing how the person behaves as both town and scum. For all you know, I could act exactly the same way as town as I do as scum. Yet you are trying to use a meta argument.
On a related note, do you consider yourself to be good at what we call science?

[SaintKerrigan]

You're using it as one of two arguments for voting me. That means that 50% of your argument can be applied to others who we know to be town. Since we know that this argument can apply to both town and scum, we must ignore this half of the argument, leaving b) to be the only reason for why you're voting me over the other two.

(sigh) Just agree to disagree, already. I don't want to argue theory. You obviously think one thing, I think another.

The reason for why so many people think meta arguments are bad: People try to use meta without knowing how the person behaves as both town and scum. For all you know, I could act exactly the same way as town as I do as scum. Yet you are trying to use a meta argument.
On a related note, do you consider yourself to be good at what we call science?

When I find the time, I'll do a proper meta on you. Right now, however, I don't. Just in case you're not scum,

Unvote: Nikanor.

Mod: I'm going to be V/LA for awhile due to school related issues.

Noted.
- Mod

[Gayle]

Hey, MME. How is that case you were building on me?

[My Milked Eek]

Meh, it's very situational and depending on Pome's alignment. There are some things bugging me in the interactions your slot had with Pome, which is the only thing I have against your slot.

But you're not my suspect of the day at this time and I doubt that you will be.

[chauchaudotcom]

Hey, Gayle. Can you address this please?

Gayle - Can you outline your case in more thorough detail then MME? Because a lot of what MME did other people did as well. Frost and Nika both encouraged me to hammer as well. Pom, Frost and Nika all felt that Riza was a better candidate to lynch. In fact, MME was not the first to vote Riza at all. So why out of all the possible people is MME your top suspect?

[Gayle]

This was going to be another "Quotation Wars" post, but I have removed most of the quotes to show that I care deeply for each and every one of you.

This is not a matter of "Gayle being right". Even I was not 100% sure Riza was town. It is a matter of "every single vote of the Riza wagon is suspect". The fact that I didn't defend Riza is irrelevant to the fact that no one (save perhaps for Chau) had a good reason to vote. So drop the "I told you so" bullshit, and stop pretending I can't question you about the bandwagon if I didn't defend Riza.

Right, I shouldn't bother attacking the other ridiculously scummy players. Pom is the obvious lynch so I should just attack her and worry about the others on day 3.

lol, yet you find that one quote of me suspicious. Contradiction much?

Explain the contradiction because I don't see it.

Did you see how I persuaded chau and nik into voting for riza? See how easy it was? Why did you not use the same techniques to save your precious riza?

I don't think you actually "persuaded" Nikanor. That's like bringing a fat man to a buffet and saying you persuaded him to eat. Also, Chau hammered because he had no choice but to hammer. You didn't persuade him.

And for your information, Riza is not precious anymore. My feelings have moved on to Pom.

Common sense and such. It is rather obvious that the points you brought up were inferior to other points I brought up, in fact half of those points weren't mine to begin with.

MME, I still don't know what the keystones of your case were. How about you explain them to me now, and we can settle whether they were worthless or not.

Can you outline your case in more thorough detail then MME? Because a lot of what MME did other people did as well. Frost and Nika both encouraged me to hammer as well. Pom, Frost and Nika all felt that Riza was a better candidate to lynch. In fact, MME was not the first to vote Riza at all. So why out of all the possible people is MME your top suspect?

No. Also, the order in which they voted is irrelevant to the fact that all the votes are suspect. MME is not my only suspect.

[My Milked Eek]

This was going to be another "Quotation Wars" post, but I have removed most of the quotes to show that I care deeply for each and every one of you.

Good, most of them are just rehashes of previous quotes, so it's better not to clog the thread.

This is not a matter of "Gayle being right". Even I was not 100% sure Riza was town. It is a matter of "every single vote of the Riza wagon is suspect". The fact that I didn't defend Riza is irrelevant to the fact that no one (save perhaps for Chau) had a good reason to vote. So drop the "I told you so" bullshit, and stop pretending I can't question you about the bandwagon if I didn't defend Riza.

You can question it, but the way you're doing it is in a way of "I told you so".

"- Every vote is suspect
- The case was pathetic"

This is you wagging your finger. If every vote is suspicious, tell me what's the reason of the votes being suspicious?

Right, I shouldn't bother attacking the other ridiculously scummy players. Pom is the obvious lynch so I should just attack her and worry about the others on day 3.

lol, yet you find that one quote of me suspicious. Contradiction much?

Explain the contradiction because I don't see it.

You find it scummy of me to ask of chau what you're doing now: not going after your top suspect.

I don't think you actually "persuaded" Nikanor. That's like bringing a fat man to a buffet and saying you persuaded him to eat. Also, Chau hammered because he had no choice but to hammer. You didn't persuade him.

He actually did have a choice. Or they did. Pome was at L-2 or L-1 as well iirc. The more correct analogy would be bringing a fat man to the sidewalk in front of two restaurants and me being the louder restaurant holder reeling him in.

Common sense and such. It is rather obvious that the points you brought up were inferior to other points I brought up, in fact half of those points weren't mine to begin with.

MME, I still don't know what the keystones of your case were. How about you explain them to me now, and we can settle whether they were worthless or not.

Perhaps in a next post.

No. Also, the order in which they voted is irrelevant to the fact that all the votes are suspect. MME is not my only suspect.

Reasons please.

[RayFrost]

I agree with nikanor about sainty's case.

I don't see why MME thinks gayle is scummy, going to have to wait for that case.

Gayle's generic "all people on teh wagon is r scummy" seems to be a very weak basis for suspecting individuals. It's too generic.

Anyway, need to reread the thread after my v/la

[My Milked Eek]

Gayle an sich isn't scummy. Some interactions with pome are ringing a bell somewhere.

[RayFrost]

Oh, okay.

I'll look into that.

[Gayle]

I don't see why MME thinks gayle is scummy, going to have to wait for that case.

He is not going to make that case.

Gayle's generic "all people on teh wagon is r scummy" seems to be a very weak basis for suspecting individuals. It's too generic.

Rather, it is that no one had a good reason to be on the bandwagon. My problem is:
-RayFrost's reason was "I like the Riza case."
-I don't believe MME's suspicions of Riza were genuine.
-Nikanor didn't give a reason for his vote.
-Pom also went the "I agree" route, and is scummy either way.
-Chau is apparently female.

[RayFrost]

So...

you didn't read my reasoning for the first vote, I guess.

you believe MME's reasons were contrived

nikanor is scum

pome is scum

chau is a dragqueen.

Why are you voting MME out of the others?

[My Milked Eek]

Notes I had about Riza:


- Riza contradicts herself about her random vote. It wasn't random at all, she was looking to bandwagon from the getgo. (Page 2)

- Riza is backtracking (#108) & Pome =/= scum (déja vu with TS on page 3) (Page 5)

- Riza in #121 : WIFOM and "I'd vote RF, but others won't, so I'm not voting him" (paraphrased)(Page 5)

The following is in chronological order!
- Pome votes Vap and FOSses Jarc
- Riza: "perhaps hetemens is scum" (paraphrased), which is a blatant lurker attack
- Jarc FoSses Vap
- Riza FoSses Vap
(Page 6)

Me about her Vap case:
Are you sure you're not forgetting to lie? The only reasons I see for your vote on Vap are:
1) he's an incredibly easy target (you explain this yourself later on)
2) others were already dogpiling onto him, I'm still in doubt about your FoS on Vap after Jarc did so (cf. previous big post)

- not much here lol, don't like Riza's attack on vap, it's really inane. (Page 8)

- Riza builds crap case and builds up scumminess. Eggs on Vap and tries not to appear doing so (#213) (Page 9)

- Riza's #238 contradicts itself, "Vap is newbie scum acting to be a VI". I don't think newbie scum is capable of doing that on purpose. (Page 10)



Going to search for my bits of paper now, brb.

[Gayle]

Why are you voting MME out of the others?

Because I can only vote one person at a time.

you didn't read my reasoning for the first vote, I guess

Are you referring to

recent posts have just been agreeing with others without really providing personal analysis.

earlier posts aren't that great either, mix of easy vote then unvoting a post later (by riz, not in total) for something riz didn't find enough before. This is backtracking, savvy?

That about sums it up

Doesn't seem like much. And apparently you didn't think much of them either, since you forgot you voted Riza altogether.

[RayFrost]

Gayle, I so often forget where my vote is that I unvote and revote people I was voting without even realizing it.