Seemingly Normal Mafia (Over)

[ElectricBadger]

Mod-Edit Votecount 1-7

Toon fighter - 8

(Anon, Flareonage, Kyle99, Jack, magnus_orion, Nul, farside22, RichardGHP)

magnus_orion - 7

(Kairyuu, danakillsu, Primate, DocPotter, Seacore, Toon Fighter, ElectricBadger)

Farside22 - 1

(bv310)

Not Voting - 4

(Kise, DeeJayCee, TheLonging, Haschel Cedricson)

With 20 alive, it takes 11 to lynch.

To Be Replaced:
TheLonging

---

What's the reasoning on the magnus wagon? If a flood of votes switches from toon to magnus is it evidence that they are mafia switching on to an innocent?

The 'snowball' effect is a tell, nothing more nor less. You're starting to get repetitive in your contradiction without stating any reasoning: why are you convinced that the Toon wagon is so townie?

There's plenty of posts by and at magnus, with a fair number from me; if you don't understand the wagon I suggest doing some re-reading.

[Jack]

"pretending he's pro-town" is begging the question. "voting based on nothing" seems to be a holdover from the early suspicion of him, but how can one vote based on something when there isn't something to vote on? All of the votes from that stage of the game fall prey to that criticism.

Do you think that Magnus does not have basis for his vote on toon fighter?

As for the 2nd question, "no" is quite right, that's why I'm against the assumption that toon fighter is being voted a bunch because the mafia want to lynch him and save magnus. If anything, the mafia love to keep scummy townies around. Well, it's better for them to keep scummy townies around, they may be foolish and try and lynch them early.

[danakillsu]

"pretending he's pro-town" is begging the question.

Absolutely not. (I hope you didn't think the language of logic would confuse me). I'm saying that voting based on nothing does not help the town, and that magnus_orion is pretending it does. This does not mean magnus_orion is pretending to be town, just that he is pretending to be pro-town. I believe there is a difference.

"voting based on nothing" seems to be a holdover from the early suspicion of him, but how can one vote based on something when there isn't something to vote on?

Sigh. Alright, I should add that he confirmed that his vote must be right based on nothing.

Do you think that Magnus does not have basis for his vote on toon fighter?

Yes. For sure.

that's why I'm against the assumption that toon fighter is being voted a bunch because the mafia want to lynch him and save magnus.

I wasn't aware that there was this assumption. I think the Toon Fighter wagon is the wrong one, not that it was created by the mafia. Jack, I think you had better watch yourself. There has been some really faulty reasoning from you in this game. Some find faulty reasoning scummy.

[Jack]

I don't see how my reasoning is faulty when your statements after I question them...

"pretending to be pro-town"

Implies that you think he is pretending to be on the town side in the game. A pro-town role is distinct from pro-town. So you see how it is begging the question the way you stated it.

Sigh. Alright, I should add that he confirmed that his vote must be right based on nothing.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with being hyperbolic on page three. It's a pro town action if not a pro town tell.

I also find EB somewhat scummy, personally.

[Anon]

I dont have the energy/time to read one more page of mafia.

Post tonight. Dont quicklynch anyone on page 8 obv obv.

[farside22]

I don't see magnus as "pretending to be protown" I see that he made 2 cases based on blowing something up that wasn't there.
First the EB case saying EB was voting for Flare for scum reason's when it looked to be a joke vote.
Saying I was trying to convince players that I was trying to get him lynched but never saying where in my orginal post I was convincing anyone.
He's also very hypocritical as far as I can see. Talks down to any player making a case but doesn't post a clear case himself.

The only reason I'm staying on TF is as I said rereading this game and his other game his OMGUS vote and backtracking doesnt' make sense.

[ElectricBadger]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with being hyperbolic on page three. It's a pro town action if not a pro town tell.

Hyperbole to get a reaction is meh - I do it at times, as any pressure is better than none, but I base it on actual evidence.

However, there's a not-too-fine line where exaggeration ends and lying to form an accusation begins, and I believe magnus crossed that.

I'm against the assumption that toon fighter is being voted a bunch because the mafia want to lynch him and save magnus. If anything, the mafia love to keep scummy townies around.

So you're saying that mafia won't try to to lynch scummy town?

I find that ridiculous.

[Jack]

[quote="ElecrticBadgerer]So you're saying that mafia won't try to to lynch scummy town?

I find that ridiculous. [/quote]

Nein. Your theory only works if magnus is mafia, and toon is innocent. I believe the opposite is much more likely.

I don't believe that if a few people switch from one wagon to the other, that they are mafia trying to save their scum buddy that they were formerly bussing. That is essentially what you suggested.

[magnus_orion]

@EB: While I don't really care that you're voting me, I do want to point out something I found rather interesting.
At first I thought you were merely being cautious, but this recent vote calls that into question.

You see, you've been encouraging my lynch for a while now, saying things like "the magnus wagon is a good wagon" etc. etc.
Now this was highlighted to me, since you weren't voting me at the time.

Now then, recently, you've decided that my wagon was vote worthy. Around the same time you decided toon wasn't.

Now, what's changed between then (you weren't voting me) and now (you are)? Well considering that your entire post where you vote me is about toon, I'd say the thing that changed is toon's wagon.

What does that tell me? It tells me that the thing that made me vote-worthy was the wagon on toon. Which tells me you have some kind of vested interest in toon not being lynched. Since you seem to think that this is something scum are likely to do when they have a vested interest in someone not being lynched, it makes you more likely to be scum. With me so far?
Now tell me, can you identify a different reason for your change of opinion on my vote-worthiness besides toon? If so, let me know.

Dattebayo

[Jebus]

Konowa replaces TheLonging. Welcome!

[bv310]

Alrighty. All caught up. Nothing much jumps out at me that hasn't been rehashed a million times already. Not a fan of either wagon at this point, but Toon's AtE and Newbclaim seem really sketchy.

[Jack]

What does that tell me? It tells me that the thing that made me vote-worthy was the wagon on toon. Which tells me you have some kind of vested interest in toon not being lynched.

This is the impression I'm getting as well, which is why I've been picking on that "a flood of mafia" thing.

It's actual discouraging me from the toon wagon, as EB could as easily be mafia wanting to appear townie by not being on a newbie townie lynch. I got a bit of that feel from some of his posts.

I'll have to consider it though.

[danakillsu]

"pretending to be pro-town"

Implies that you think he is pretending to be on the town side in the game. A pro-town role is distinct from pro-town. So you see how it is begging the question the way you stated it.

Did you even read my post??? "pro-town" meant someone who is doing things that help town, not a townie. If that's a misuse of the term, sorry. But please read what I say and try to understand it.

[RichardGHP]

Unvote.

For once, I want to be the one to hammer. Don't ask me why.

[kyle99]

Meh, I ISOed ToonFighter, and he just reeks of scum. He RVSed WAAAY to late, admited it was an OMGUS, and than admitted it was an awful vote and unvoted. Then, he voted for the next highest wagon because he said it was the best chance for him to stay alive. Claiming newb isn't going to help him on this.

[Flareonage]

Unvote.

For once, I want to be the one to hammer. Don't ask me why.

It's fun isn't it?

[RichardGHP]

Unvote.

For once, I want to be the one to hammer. Don't ask me why.

It's fun isn't it?

I wouldn't know, I've never done it before.

I imagine it would be quite satisfying though, especially if we hit scum.

[Konowa]

Replacing in for TheLonging. It is 5:45 in the morning and I am on my way to work and I have not read yet. Someone should summarize the points against Toon and magnus so I have something to read when I get back.

Ciao.

[ElectricBadger]

You see, you've been encouraging my lynch for a while now, saying things like "the magnus wagon is a good wagon" etc. etc.
Now this was highlighted to me, since you weren't voting me at the time.

Now then, recently, you've decided that my wagon was vote worthy. Around the same time you decided toon wasn't.

Now, what's changed between then (you weren't voting me) and now (you are)? Well considering that your entire post where you vote me is about toon, I'd say the thing that changed is toon's wagon.

I've made no secret that what changed my mind was Toon's wagon - that it built too fast and with too little reason, most of it bad play instead of a pro-scum agenda. Obviously you can disagree that it's a tell, but it's worked for me in the past.

I've consistently found you the more likely scum. Manufacturing a false case is far worse than unreasoned votes and AtE. Initially I didn't vote you because someone would have cried OMGUS and side-tracked us into a silly argument about voting someone who happens to be voting for oneself - site meta is that a defensive case without a vote is seen as more acceptable, something I find quirky but abide by. As our conversation continued there just wasn't any reason to vote you. Your wagon was building with others so there was pressure, you were talking and didn't need more pressure to make you respond, I wasn't ready for a lynch yet anyhow, and I felt it would be better to keep my vote for a time when it could help the scumhunt pick up again, if that were needed - which IMO describes this moment perfectly.

I voted Toon initially, on the other hand, because - unlike you - he wasn't posting much. Still hasn't, but he's close enough to a lynch that if vote pressure were going to change his mind it'll do so fine without me.

Jack, I find it curious that after all your argument that scum wouldn't flip off of scum to town, especially if they had a townie-point early position on the wagon, you're now hopping on the idea that I'm doing exactly that. What's changed your mind?

[Kise]

Not a whole lot I want to say at the moment. Too many mofos came out of the woodworks voting for Toon and they all look opportunistic. Don't care if it's a mix of town, scum, or newbs on the wagon, everyone looks opportunistic. It might have been late in the game for the rest of us to do RVS crap, but I expect it from fresh fish like Toon. The points on magnus almost earn my vote. Very odd behavior from you, sir. Definitely wouldn't mind joining this wagon. Hypocrite activity is worthy of a lynch.

I feel like voting Nul for the hell of it.

What's the reasoning on the magnus wagon?

You weren't reading?

[magnus_orion]

You see, you've been encouraging my lynch for a while now, saying things like "the magnus wagon is a good wagon" etc. etc.
Now this was highlighted to me, since you weren't voting me at the time.

Now then, recently, you've decided that my wagon was vote worthy. Around the same time you decided toon wasn't.

Now, what's changed between then (you weren't voting me) and now (you are)? Well considering that your entire post where you vote me is about toon, I'd say the thing that changed is toon's wagon.

I've made no secret that what changed my mind was Toon's wagon - that it built too fast and with too little reason, most of it bad play instead of a pro-scum agenda. Obviously you can disagree that it's a tell, but it's worked for me in the past.

I've consistently found you the more likely scum. Manufacturing a false case is far worse than unreasoned votes and AtE. Initially I didn't vote you because someone would have cried OMGUS and side-tracked us into a silly argument about voting someone who happens to be voting for oneself - site meta is that a defensive case without a vote is seen as more acceptable, something I find quirky but abide by. As our conversation continued there just wasn't any reason to vote you. Your wagon was building with others so there was pressure, you were talking and didn't need more pressure to make you respond, I wasn't ready for a lynch yet anyhow, and I felt it would be better to keep my vote for a time when it could help the scumhunt pick up again, if that were needed - which IMO describes this moment perfectly.

I voted Toon initially, on the other hand, because - unlike you - he wasn't posting much. Still hasn't, but he's close enough to a lynch that if vote pressure were going to change his mind it'll do so fine without me.

Jack, I find it curious that after all your argument that scum wouldn't flip off of scum to town, especially if they had a townie-point early position on the wagon, you're now hopping on the idea that I'm doing exactly that. What's changed your mind?

So, once again, the only thing that's changed has nothing to do with me, personally, which means you have an ulterior motive for voting me now, regardless of what it may be. You seem to have agreed on this point.

You claim your ulterior motive was related to not voting, with the reasoning that you were afraid of "omgus". Well, I think omgus is a ridiculous accusation, said as much, so that fear should have been alleviated. Why didn't you vote me once I said that?
Oh, you go on to claim you had an additional ulterior motive, which was to "help the scumhunt pick up again", in other words, you felt it was better to save it for a time when you could use it to try to better manipulate public action/opinion, rather than actually use it just to express your own opinion. When the opportunity arose, as it were.


So, in summary, your self-admitted motivations were fear of being suspected and waiting until you could attempt to opportunistically manipulate public action/opinion. Do you feel I am misrepresenting you when I say that, and, if so, how?

The points on magnus almost earn my vote. Very odd behavior from you, sir. Definitely wouldn't mind joining this wagon. Hypocrite activity is worthy of a lynch.

I realize people have called me a hypocrite for a while now, but I fail to see an actual statement of mine where I condemn an action, and then another quote where I actually commit the action I condemn. Could someone do this for me? Or quote a post where someone does?

Considering the only game I've played with you, kise, has been where I was scum, my odd behavior shouldn't be condemning me. If you meant odd relative to standard townie play, I realize my playstyle is odd, but I also realize that its fallacious to assume that odd = scummy.

Dattebayo

[Kise]

Farside has been digging quotes for a while now. And yes I do mean odd when compared to standard town "play," or I should say what I expect a level-headed player with nothing to worry about if they're free of guilt.

(Oh yeah, you were the one that killed me right?)

[magnus_orion]

Yes, I know, could you quote a post where he does what I asked for? thanks.

(also, it was Lamont that killed you and he was a pro-town day-vig.)

Dattebayo

[danakillsu]

The only reason I'm staying on TF is as I said rereading this game and his other game his OMGUS vote and backtracking doesnt' make sense.

which is the only reason you voted for him in the first place.
@TFvoters
WHY????!!! Why would you stay on a wagon that started with a single OMGUS vote??? THREE people voted for TF based on this, which I just don't understand. Then, TF broke down under pressure. You can't blame a guy for breaking down when three votes immediately pile on because of something like that.

I dont have the energy/time to read one more page of mafia.

Post tonight. Dont quicklynch anyone on page 8 obv obv.

Would love to see that post, anon.

[Jack]

What's the reasoning on the magnus wagon?

You weren't reading?

I would like to see a solid case. With quotes. My read on him was "making something out of nothing in early game to get things rolling". The response to that was "yes that's fine, but he was doing it in a scummy way". Essentially, I'm in the dark here about why people find him scummy, and asking for explanation.

Jack, I find it curious that after all your argument that scum wouldn't flip off of scum to town, especially if they had a townie-point early position on the wagon, you're now hopping on the idea that I'm doing exactly that. What's changed your mind?

@EB: Earlier, you kept taking my quote of "I wouldn't make the assumption that..." and turning it into "Jack, why are you claiming there aren't any scum that switched?". You are doing the same thing here. Don't.

I pointed out that scum being in early on a wagon against there partner is good for them. This is true. Would you agree that farside and RichardGHP, who had their votes on magnus and switched to toon, would have considered that? Remember, this is something to

consider

, not a claim that that they are scum, that magnus is scum, or that they would never ever ever ever switch.

Along with the other points I put out for consideration, they form a collective argument. The issue under discussion is whether magnus is suspicious, and whether the the people that voted toon fighter are mafia. I don't think you really disagree with my claim that the people who switched aren't suspicious, because I haven't seen you spend much time on them, you are focusing on magnus.

You say here that I'm claiming you are jumping from scum to town, that's possible. If toon fighter is guilty, you would be switching off from him to someone I think is townie, even though you would have looked good if he'd been lynched.

But this isn't really damning as you seem to think, because my statement wasn't an all or nothing claim as you like to say it was, and I explicitly said that it was forcing me to reconsider Toon fighter. As in, it's making him look innocent. So I did in fact take into consideration what I said should be taken into consideration.

The reason I still have my vote on toon is because he was suspicious, and farside was suspicious with the jester speculation in relation to him. Toon is also notably absent.

If I thought toon was innocent, I would be voting you, for the reasons I mentioned in this post and the last. I should consider that there could be multiple mafia factions, but I don't know how far setup speculation will get us.