Mini 904 - Narnia: LWW Mafia (Game Over)

[MadCrawdad]

It would likely have ended that way anyway, but he appeared simply to finish of starbuck, and didn't participate prior to that.

Par for the course with RBT. He should participate today, though. Day 1 is always wifomic and uncertain.

If the Beaver's were a vig kill, I would ask the vig to come forward. Dybaeck had a few detractors yesterday, so I don't see scum hitting him, unless they picked up the mason crumb.

If anyone doesn't think vig should come forward, speak now or hold your piece.

This is an odd conclusion to jump to, kiku. IMO for the town to try to figure motives for NKs opens a

huge

can of wifom, that frequently leads to confusion.

You say that "Day 1 is always wifomic and uncertain." Why would you feel differently when it comes to trying to figure motives for N1 kills?

For now,

VOTE:Kiku

, because I think Star was probably going down the right track at the point of who was scum.

Starbuck also went after dybeck and bv, so to just say she was going down the right track, now that she's flipped town, is probably not wise. Any other reasons that you like kiku?

[wolframnhart]

I have to agree with RBT on the night kill, it is more then likely that dybeck was targeted, and bv310 was not because he took his own life as a lover. Now IF there is a SK, or a vig, they could have targeted dybeck along with the mafia, but that is a rare thing to see.

And I am not sure if because Starbuck didn't like Kiku that damns Kiku, if there was a real case against her that is one thing, but just saying you are voting someone because of a dead townies words means nothing.

FoS RBT

[Kdub]

Vote Count

Riceballtail (0)

-

MadCrawdad (0)

-

kikuchiyo (1)

- Riceballtail

HackerHuck (0)

-

Papa Zito (0)

-

wolframnhart (0)

-

Narninian (0)

-

manho (0)

-

evilsnail (1)

- Papa Zito

No Lynch (0)

-

Not Voting (7)

- MadCrawdad, kikuchiyo, HackerHuck, wolframnhart, Narninian, manho, evilsnail

9 votes available, 5 votes needed to lynch.

Deadline is February 19, ~ 8:00 pm MST.

[evilsnail]

My major suspect at the moment is Narninian. The way he handled the Starbuck lynch reeked of scumminess.

First, he doesn't want to lynch Starbuck:

I don't see the claim of rumblebuffin to be a lynch worthy claim at this point. Vanilla townie is a bit of an 'easy' claim, and the name certainly is doubtful to have a counterclaim - but book just doesnt have a lot of better known' characters. There is Aslan, the 4 kids, tumnus, Father Christmas, Mr and Mrs Beaver, Professor Kirke. Personally, I wouldn't see any of those characters as 'vanilla' and if they were limited to those - a mass claim would make the game trivial. For vanilla characters tertiary characters seem most likely.

Then, after manho claims, he

does

want to lynch Starbuck. The wording here also is terribly non-committal. "It seems a vanilla townie might be our best choice."

Well, That is quite the claim. I definitely expected to see her in the game, and her allegiance is solid. At this point I don't see pushing another bandwagon to be useful for town, if there is no counterclaim, it seems vanilla townie might be our best choice.

BUT: despite this, he doesn't vote Starbuck yet. That is definitely a scum move, IMO. He ensures that he's pushing the lynch without committing to it and he's testing the waters a little bit to see if he can get away with a Starbuck vote.

Waiting for a counterclaim for Susan of course, not rumblebuffin. I actually agree with you on bv310 and that is why I had a vote on him, but forcing a third claim today might help scum more than it would help town. Choosing between a Vanilla townie tertiary character, and an uncontested Susan claim (power role to boot) seems like we have little choice.

"Seems like we have little choice" = scummy as hell. That is so scum trying to escape accountability.

Finally, J.R., who Narninian replaced, also set off my scumdar. J.R. was opportunistic as heck, placing a third vote on Starbuck for little reason.

Vote: Narninian

Also think this post by wolframnhart was very off:

I don't see the vig coming out even if we ask him/her to, and there is no guarantee there even is a vig, dybeck was a very powerful player, mafia could have just wanted to take him out, bv310 was just a bonus for lack of a better term.

FOS: wolframnhart

[HackerHuck]

Day 1 hammer is a poor place to look for scum. It was only about 11 hours until deadline. No other wagon was going anywhere. But I digress.

Sometimes, but I disagree in this case. People make mistakes and hammer without too much thought, so I don't think it indicates that he's town.

Par for the course with RBT. He should participate today, though. Day 1 is always wifomic and uncertain.

After this quote, I'm even more certain that his hammer doesn't prove he's town.

I liked Riceball yesterday and his hammer hasn't made me think he's any less scummy. With Starbuck and bv310 out of the way, he's leading the pack by a mile.

Vote: Riceballtail

[evilsnail]

Meh, I'm not seeing the RBT case. He's been opportunistic with his vote, sure, and he hasn't contributed too much, but there are plenty of people who play like that when town.

[Riceballtail]

@Mac: "Unless they picked up the mason crumb" makes it sound like it was rather unapparent that dybeck had pretty clearly said "Mason partner here". Why did kiku shed doubt on the rather easy read of that?

[kikuchiyo]

I'm likely to think that manho is telling the truth, despite being rather scummy. That said, I'd like a CC ASAP if he's lying.

Agreed here.

Vote: Narninian

Iso analysis a little later, but I think this is a good place to start. I really didn't expect people to start voting until Susan dropped in, but this works.

Starbuck's cases yesterday were nothing but omgus. She handled the lynch rather poorly and tunneled on her main attackers and never accounted for her actions. I would be more interested in those who weren't interested in lynching her, or who attempted to fence sit. Narninian fits that bill.

["quote="madcraw"]You say that "Day 1 is always wifomic and uncertain." Why would you feel differently when it comes to trying to figure motives for N1 kills? [/quote]

Not sure what this is asking. I suggested that a vig come forward if they killed Beaver. Either noone claims the kill, or someone claims the kill. If someone claims the kill it may help us piece together what is going on under the cover of night. What's the issue with my question? I need clarification here.

Starbuck was undoubtedly scummy. Papa Zito's late day 180 on her lynch had me wondering. I'd like some PZ.

Susan, have you anything to say?

[Narninian]

Evilsnail - do you feel pushing a third claim close to the deadline would have been more helpful to town.

If not, what alternative would have been better?

Lynching an unclaimed person (bv310 was the likely candidate there), or Lynching Manho (Who has an uncontested Susan claim). Once Manho claimed - our choices were limited with the rest of the day.

[evilsnail]

Narninian - I don't have a problem with your Starbuck vote. Starbuck's claim was pretty weak and it was the best move, considering the circumstances. What I find scummy is the way in which you did it, as should be pretty clear from my post.

[Narninian]

I felt bv310 was acting scummier that Starbuck and I stand by that today.

[MadCrawdad]

@Mac: "Unless they picked up the mason crumb" makes it sound like it was rather unapparent that dybeck had pretty clearly said "Mason partner here". Why did kiku shed doubt on the rather easy read of that?

I don't know that she did shed doubt on it, but if that's what was triggering your scumdar, why did you not ask it of

her

? Seems odd that you'd just claim to be blindly following Starbuck, if this recent issue was weighing on your mind.

You say that "Day 1 is always wifomic and uncertain." Why would you feel differently when it comes to trying to figure motives for N1 kills?

Not sure what this is asking. I suggested that a vig come forward if they killed Beaver. Either noone claims the kill, or someone claims the kill. If someone claims the kill it may help us piece together what is going on under the cover of night. What's the issue with my question? I need clarification here.

The issue is that it looks like you're cautioning Narninian against going into a pool of wifom, but then dive in yourself. Why?

Trying to figure out any motives for the NK likely opens more doors leading into wifom than it closes. Meaning a greater possibility for confusion, not less.

[kikuchiyo]

Okay. Maybe you misunderstood me. I think if a vig shot Beaver then that player should come forward. I'm not going to fashion my investigation based on assumed motives. i.e. unless a vig comes forward I will believe this to be a scum/sk kill. Assuming it is a vig kill without proof would be "diving in" to a bucket of wifom imo.

[manho]

Susan, do you have anything to report?

unfortunately no.

starbuck and i are both wrong about dybeck and bv, and i think i should drop my case on kiku as it is similar to that on dybeck and bv.

will reread the thread soon to find the scum.

[HackerHuck]

Okay. Maybe you misunderstood me. I think if a vig shot Beaver then that player should come forward. I'm not going to fashion my investigation based on assumed motives. i.e. unless a vig comes forward I will believe this to be a scum/sk kill. Assuming it is a vig kill without proof would be "diving in" to a bucket of wifom imo.

I don't think that outing the vig will be as helpful as you do.

[kikuchiyo]

I'm not going to push the issue.

manho: Were you roleblocked?

[manho]

I'm not going to push the issue.

manho: Were you roleblocked?

i don't think so.

[MadCrawdad]

I'm not going to push the issue.

manho: Were you roleblocked?

I'm not nuts about this line of questioning, Kiku. In post 420 below, you were all for manho keeping his role hush-hush for the benefit of the town, but it's starting to look like you're into some serious role-fishing.

FoS: kikuchiyo

I guess I must be really dense. How does WIFOM help the town and why wouldn't the scum kill him regardless of what he can do?

Hypothetically, lets say manho is Susan. Let's say Susan is a power role. Let's say manho says "I'm doc". Now scum can be fairly confident that manho can be killed. Thus they most likely submit "NK: Manho."

Let's say manho says: "I'm cop." Now scum can look elsewhere to find a possible doc, knowing that manho will most likely draw protection from the doc. Or, mafia might have a watcher and submit, "Watch: Manho."

By not revealing his power, manho forces scum to make their night action decisions off of speculation rather than facts. Which would you rather have: the chance of a muffed nk/mafia action, or a map to victory for scum?

[Riceballtail]

I'm not going to push the issue.

manho: Were you roleblocked?

How goes that rolefishin' there?

[kikuchiyo]

I was asking for clarification. Thats not role fishing. He said "no," to results. If he was roleblocked then that could prove to be valuable information to town. Lame accusations are not going to help find scum. How does my question help scum? If manho is telling the truth then scum knows it. They also know whether or not they roleblocked him. Therefore asking for an answer does not give scum any more information than they would otherwise already have imo.

More later.

[MadCrawdad]

I was asking for clarification. Thats not role fishing. He said "no," to results. If he was roleblocked then that could prove to be valuable information to town. Lame accusations are not going to help find scum. How does my question help scum? If manho is telling the truth then scum knows it. They also know whether or not they roleblocked him. Therefore asking for an answer does not give scum any more information than they would otherwise already have imo.

More later.

Lame accusations? You started D2 by proposing that dybeck likely wasn't killed by scum, and suggesting that the vig come out for confimation. Now you're asking into manho's night actions. These are places that a town-aligned player shouldn't be digging.

To illustrate, let's just say that dybeck was vig killed (although I don't believe he was). This could mean, that for some reason, scum didn't get a kill last night...right? There could be several reasons as to why that occurred, one of them being that other town-aligned players' night actions came into play. Start picking it apart in the thread, and who knows what info could be gleaned by scum.

If you truly thought that dybeck wasn't killed by scum, this would have had to cross your mind. Why are you so intent on digging there?

[kikuchiyo]

Why are you so intent on digging there?

I'm not going to push the issue.

Noone has to reveal anything they don't want to. "Intent" is a mischaractyerization of my stance.

I think other players need to chime in. If you don't like my line of questioning I will stop, but I am not sure what else I should do at this point.

[Papa Zito]

I'd like some PZ.

Rowr.

Not impressed by snail's post.

[wolframnhart]

Omg i forgot i was alive in this game

Kiku you said you were going to ISO narnian later due to your vote on him, which was on Saturday. You have posted since then, even again saying "more later" I would love to see your ISO to justify your vote.

[kikuchiyo]

Omg i forgot i was alive in this game

Kiku you said you were going to ISO narnian later due to your vote on him, which was on Saturday. You have posted since then, even again saying "more later" I would love to see your ISO to justify your vote.

Not sure if the iso will "justify" the vote. The iso may in fact cause me to change my vote. We'll just have to wait and see. Please don't try and paint me into a corner. "More later" means exactly that. I am not lurking. If you have a specific question, just ask. If 476 is your best shot at participation then you have done nothing to get off of my suspicion list today. You have never reconciled your "role pm" reasoning for jumping off a vanilla wagon. Do you think scum was given fakeclaims? If no, then would you support a mass claim? If yes, then why in the bloody hell would you believe Starbuck's vanilla claim based on your own pm? This issue was glossed over yesterday, but with current information I find this extremely relevant.

More later.