Newbie 893 - Newbieland! (GAME OVER)

[My Milked Eek]

And yet you spent all that time arguing with me about it.

-sigh-

Because you can't get it in your head that even though you disagree with reasons posted by people that those reasons are true for those people.

1, it was deadline. 2, I wasn't sure Riza was town.

You had 4 days or something like that. I know I had 4 or 5 days. I didn't lay back and watch the grass grow, I made a case. You went for Pome, but not as loudly, if you had pome might have been dead instead of Riza. Get the picture I'm painting here? You are responsible as well, if not by action it's by the lack of (counter)action.

If you are saying that Riza was so scummy that she would have been lynched even without scum jumping on her wagon, then I completely disagree.

Here you go again, saying that Riza wasn't scummy. Guess again, she was. I don't get where you get this idea that scumminess is an absolute truth and that there are no subjective opinions about who is scummy and who isn't. And if you do understand that little idea, tell me why your idea of scumminess is superior to mine.

What do you mean give more noise? Didn't I say I wanted to lynch Pom? Didn't I say I didn't find Riza scummy? Didn't I tell you I disagreed with your case?

Sure, you said you wanted to lynch Pome. And sure you said you didn't find Riza scummy. And sure you said you disagreed with (parts of) with my case.

It's not about what you did do or did not do, it's about how you did it or did not do it. It's simple, I was more convincing and louder about my case than you were about yours. Had you been louder about your case some people might have swayed your way. See how the mislynch is also traceable to the pome case? Two competing bandwagons aren't isolated, they're communicating barrels, especially at deadline.

Except that I said that I didn't find Riza all that scummy after ISOing her, and that I thought your case was weak.

Good and dandy, but your responses to more explanations were also weak. Sorry D:

Here is that scummy argument again. Above you state that you are not using "You should have defended her" in your defense. Then why do you keep pushing it? Does not defending her make me scummy? Does not defending her mean I can't find the bandwagon scummy? If not, what possible reason could you have to keep bringing it up, if not to distract town?

I'm not using it as a defense, stop saying that I am. I'm trying to get you to understand that you're being a stupidly stubborn player. Your post above with all the sarcasm and arrogance clearly shows of a superiority complex and I hope that you understand what I just said about competing bandwagons tapping into the same vote pool.

Also, explain to me how attacking the people on the bandwagon is an overeager reaction.

Stop misrepresenting me. The action an sich isn't overeager it's how you're doing it that is.

Learn how to read.

Boiling it down to those two is not only disingenuous but scummy as well.

lmao, are you seriously calling that scummy?

Ok then:

Oh please, God's gift to the world of mafia and far beyond, please, enlighten us which other scenarios are relevant to this situation.

Also, did you just claim that I was just as responsible for the wagon? Now I see what the problem is: You don't want to be held accountable for your mislynch. Listen MME, not defending a suspect, not trying to prevent a lynch, not trying to debunk someone else's case does not make me responsible for the mislynch. The people responsible for the lynch are those who jumped on the wagon with little or no reason, or bad reasons. So let's settle this:

The people who do not participate in a lynch, are not responsible for the lynch

.

Oh, but they are. But in another kind of way. I'm pretty sure you'll understand when you grow up.

[My Milked Eek]

Sorry, MME, I'm on my best behavior when RayFrost is around. Also, you are still making that same scummy argument without explain why it matters at all.

It doesn't matter. On or off the wagon. What counts is the stance towards the bandwagon. Find scummy, and I mean genuine scummy, motivations on the bandwagon and off the bandwagon. Being on the wagon isn't a sure sign of being scummy, nor is being off the wagon a sign of not being scummy.

Pull your head out of your ass for one freaking page please.

[My Milked Eek]

MME, read the last two sentences of the post just before Chau's.

Ugh, I know, he just annoys me endlessly with borderline asshole behavior.

[chauchaudotcom]

All the sarcastic bickering between you two is not helping town. So I say you both need to knock it off. Either don't post in this thread until you both calm the hell down or drop it and actually move onto something worth pursuing.

[My Milked Eek]

You're right.

I'll go read my notes, there's something in there.

[Gayle]

@MME:
My response: I disagree. The argument about defending Riza is scummy. Both scenarios are disingenuous because they are both wrong. That being so, the fact that you would boil it down to that is scummy. Don't tell me to grow up when you are playing in the sandbox right along side me.

Here is my attempt to be civil. Your turn.

[RayFrost]

Kids, listen to mommy (chau) and go do something productive. Enough fighting.

[My Milked Eek]

@gayle

Perhaps I shouldn't have used "defend", but White Knighting a wagon isn't unheard of and is imo a towntell, especially in this case it would have been. I'm just saying that you're as much to blame as anyone else on the wagon, since your actions could have gotten pome lynched and not Riza. Not that blame has any use here.

But if you feel it must, sure blame me. I'll even take responsibility for the mislynch if you want to, but tell me this: Is it scummy to mislynch? Is it scummy to have a weak/bad case?


Those two scenarios, I think you mean those two options I had? Perhaps I misused "boiled down to", I meant it in a "this is what is most likely imo" kind of way as I don't see any other likely option. Regardless of what I meant or not, I believe you're town who is acting a bit too overeager, while you could have done something before we lynched her.


Can I ask you who on the wagon are your two scums? Or your three townies? And dare I ask: why?

[My Milked Eek]

Also,

Nikanor and SaintKerri

, I need your input on the entire thread. I expect something of value within your next two posts.

[Gayle]

@MME
MME, I was trying to question you, not blame the entire thing on you. I disagree that I should have tried to stop the wagon, and I disagree that that makes me as responsible for the wagon as those people who were on the wagon for weak reasons.

Is it scummy to mislynch? Is it scummy to have a weak/bad case? I would argue that it is scummy to mislynch with a weak/bad case.

I don't believe I am acting overeager. All I've done was attempt to pressure someone I find scummy. You are saying that I am overeager because I am attacking you though I didn't try to stop you. The reason I find this scummy, is because this argument is essentially saying that you cannot question the bandwagon if you did not try to stop it. That's wrong. Also, the difference between now and yesterday is now I know for certain that the person being wagoned was a town power role. Of course I am going to immediately attack those on the wagon.

Pom is still my top suspect. I was attempting to question you so that I could

find

the scum on the wagon, not because I knew who the scum was. Also, I don't necessarily believe that both scum were on the wagon. But there was certainly one scum on the wagon.

[Gayle]

Anyway, time to move to

Vote: Nikanor

MME, would you like for me to hammer Riza in my next post, without even having read the case against him? Because I will. You need only ask.

Well, you're bragging about how good the case is, so I thought I might as well trust you on that one. Plus, I know you're a decent scumhunter.

Hey MME, would you say your playstyle has changed from the time I played with you to now? I'm curious.
Vote: Riza.
Just one more now, I believe.

Gayle, you didn't even try that hard to derail the Riza wagon. Don't try to play the hero now.

chauchaudot settled for a lesser suspect.

Seriously? You think that hammering someone at deadline to prevent a no-lynch is a bad thing? This reads as misrepresentation.
Vote: Gayle.

...kind of makes me feel like I was wasting my time on MME.

[My Milked Eek]

@MME
MME, I was trying to question you, not blame the entire thing on you. I disagree that I should have tried to stop the wagon, and I disagree that that makes me as responsible for the wagon as those people who were on the wagon for weak reasons.

Although I hate the saying, we'll have to agree to disagree. We're clearly unable to convince the other of our opinion. And ultimately it doesn't matter here.

Is it scummy to mislynch? Is it scummy to have a weak/bad case? I would argue that it is scummy to mislynch with a weak/bad case.

That wasn't my question. I had two separate questions.
- mislynching isn't scummy
- bad cases aren't scummy

They're both performed by scum and townies, even moreso by the latter. A combination of both isn't scummy either as bad cases can lead to a mislynch. And believe me, I've pushed quite a few mislynches over rather silly cases as town before. And yes, I believed the case every time I pushed it.

I don't believe I am acting overeager. All I've done was attempt to pressure someone I find scummy. You are saying that I am overeager because I am attacking you though I didn't try to stop you. The reason I find this scummy, is because this argument is essentially saying that you cannot question the bandwagon if you did not try to stop it. That's wrong. Also, the difference between now and yesterday is now I know for certain that the person being wagoned was a town power role. Of course I am going to immediately attack those on the wagon.

A few things to set straight:
- you can question the bandwagon, but the way you're doing it isn't a good one, if you believe it is, tell me what you've learned so far. A better way to do so is to analyze who was on and who wasn't and why.
- it doesn't matter if riza was a cop or a vanilla. Or are you going to say the opposite?

Pom is still my top suspect. I was attempting to question you so that I could

find

the scum on the wagon, not because I knew who the scum was. Also, I don't necessarily believe that both scum were on the wagon. But there was certainly one scum on the wagon.

The reason I asked for 3 townies is because that's the minimum of townies on the wagon. You're free to give us more obviously. And I think we both agree with the scum on the wagon, correct?

Perhaps I could share my other two suspects at this point:
- nikanor
- saint kerri

It's mainly due to process of elimination and if I recall correctly from my readthrough: behavior of predecessors.

[RayFrost]

How is it that my suspect picks match both of your lists?

SERIOUSLY! >.<

[My Milked Eek]

...kind of makes me feel like I was wasting my time on MME.

Don't say that. Did it not strengthen the town read you had on chau and ray? Breaking up a fight between two townies isn't scummy, but in fact the opposite imo. And yes, I've got a townread on you.

[My Milked Eek]

From my notes about Jarc/stkerri:

#031 :: "random, to get Hetemens to post", vote coincidentally is on person with no votes, puts half-assed suspicion on H.Abel vs Riza, ends with "maybe it's just me though"
#043 :: Jarc unvotes Hetemens who had three votes at that time, fosses H.Abel (cf. hetemens #033), [speculation]feels the heat on hetemens[/speculation]
#109 :: Jarc replies to Chau's questions: it's been +-60 posts and this is all he has to reply to?
#113 :: says he hasn't got a clue to who he'd vote but that there isn't a lot of positive info, he might vote TS, but won't
#132 :: jarc outs an opinion about pome not scumhunting (lol)
#141 :: this is POME fossing Jarc and pome voting vap
#144 :: Jarc fosses vap
#166 :: Jarc votes Vap (second vote on vap)
---kerry---
#360 :: suspects pome and riza
#393 :: wants a nikanor lynch (meta LOL) but votes pome
#405 :: votes nikanor only for meta reasons, but brings up a slew of reasons to vote pome

and then attacks nikanor for being a lurker, which is ridiculous while having reasons to suspect pome


From my notes on hetemens/nikanor:

#033 :: Abel (= "feels too much pressure") > Riza (= "new") => = Jarc's #031
#Pg4 :: False dichotomy of hetemens
---nikanor---
active lurks and has a discussion with kerry about his lurking


That's all I wrote down during my first readthrough.

[Pomegranate]

I'll read through more carefully later, but from Gayle, on this page alone:

-fighting with MME (I'm tired, so I only skimmed so far)
-

Pom is still my top suspect.

Next post ITT:

-

Vote: Nikanor

Gayle, why do you consistently vote for a player who isn't your top suspect?

[xRECKONERx]

D2 Vote Count #1

Gayle (1): Nikanor
Pomegranate (2): My Milked Eek, chauchaudotcom
Nikanor (1): Gayle

Not voting (3): RayFrost, Pomegranate, SaintKerrigan

Deadline is 2/21/10 at 11:00am EST.

[Gayle]

That wasn't my question. I had two separate questions.
- mislynching isn't scummy
- bad cases aren't scummy

It was the combination of the two that made me find your vote scummy.

you can question the bandwagon, but the way you're doing it isn't a good one, if you believe it is, tell me what you've learned so far. A better way to do so is to analyze who was on and who wasn't and why.

The objective is to apply such pressure that you provoke a reaction that helps you determine whether the person you are pressuring is scum or not. To do that you need to sound confident. I would argue that my attacks on you provoked a few such reactions.

- it doesn't matter if riza was a cop or a vanilla. Or are you going to say the opposite?

I am not claiming that anyone knew she was a power role, if that is what you are thinking.

The reason I asked for 3 townies is because that's the minimum of townies on the wagon. You're free to give us more obviously. And I think we both agree with the scum on the wagon, correct?

I would argue that 3 townies is the maximum rather than mininum. That is, there is

at least

one scum on the wagon. While I believe Pom is most likely scum, in my mind there is still the possible that she is town. If you are saying Pom is the scum on the wagon, then I do not necessarily agree. Also, I don't give out my outright town reads.

Perhaps I could share my other two suspects at this point:
- nikanor
- saint kerri

I still suspect the people on the wagon (save for chau) more than SK.

Don't say that. Did it not strengthen the town read you had on chau and ray?

If it had been two townies just arguing their cases on each other, that would be the case. However, that argument wasn't so innocent, and so I believe anyone, town or scum, would have wanted to put an end to it.

How is it that my suspect picks match both of your lists?

You decided to bus your scumbuddy before town looked back and realized how scummy he is?


@MME: One point I don't agree with in your case about SK, is the implication that SK could not vote Nikanor while suspecting Pome. You'll notice that in the post preceding this (if you guys stop posting something new everytime I preview), Pom makes the same argument about me voting Nikanor over her. A player's vote does not need to be on their top suspect at all times.

meta LOL

As if you old timers don't

swear

by meta

[Gayle]

You decided to bus your scumbuddy before town looked back and realized how scummy he

was

?

[My Milked Eek]

The reason I asked for 3 townies is because that's the minimum of townies on the wagon. You're free to give us more obviously. And I think we both agree with the scum on the wagon, correct?

I would argue that 3 townies is the maximum rather than mininum. That is, there is

at least

one scum on the wagon. While I believe Pom is most likely scum, in my mind there is still the possible that she is town. If you are saying Pom is the scum on the wagon, then I do not necessarily agree. Also, I don't give out my outright town reads.

It's the minimum number of townies. There are either 0 scum (5 townies), 1 scum (4 townies) or 2 scum (3 townies) on the wagon.

And of course there's a possibility that pome is town, but it's very unlikely at this point imo.

I still suspect the people on the wagon (save for chau) more than SK.

I didn't say "let me guess your suspects", they're mine.

@MME: One point I don't agree with in your case about SK, is the implication that SK could not vote Nikanor while suspecting Pome. You'll notice that in the post preceding this (if you guys stop posting something new everytime I preview), Pom makes the same argument about me voting Nikanor over her. A player's vote does not need to be on their top suspect at all times.

That wasn't my case, just my first-read notes. But I agree here with you.

As if you old timers don't

swear

by meta

I don't. Meta cases are lame and I only accept meta arguments as valid if they are added to a case as extra evidence. Building a case solely on meta is stupid. And that's what sk is doing here.

[Gayle]

I don't know why I thought there were only 4 people in that first part.

[Gayle]

I jumped on the wagon because I thought he was scum and because he was lurking/being replaced.

Your reasons for jumping on the wagon were that you trusted MME's case on Riza. You said yourself that you did not bother to read the case. Why, then, did you encouraged other people to jump onto the wagon as well? And you found it better to risk a mislynch rather than have Riza replaced?

@Pom: Am I the only one you have suspicions of? What do you think of the Riza Wagon?

@RayFrost: You think Pom and Nikanor are the scum right? Is this because they are both independently scummy?

@Chau: If you had to lynch someone other than Pom, who would it be and why?

@SK: Do you feel bad that you hot-linked that saltshaker image?


Also, you guys don't have to worry about MME and I anymore. We met up to have a fist fight and instead ended up like his:

[My Milked Eek]

@Gayle

[SaintKerrigan]

@SK: Do you feel bad that you hot-linked that saltshaker image?

Not really. Why do you ask?

[Gayle]

Because scum don't have a conscience. So you are back from V/LA now?

Also

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