Open 201 - Fire & Ice Mafia ~Over~

[DTMaster]

Votecount 1.5 (As of Post 125)

mavsfan -3- kmd4390, DTMaster, TheLonging
Slaxx -3- Pomegranate, farside22, Gheb
Pomegranate -1- Slaxx
xofelf -1- The Quintastic One

Not voting: Everyone else

Deadline is 2/8/10 at 8:00pm EST

If I am missing anyone's vote, please tell me

---

EBWOP: I should say: by essentially posting: "I have nothing"

[Pomegranate]

In general it's better to have RVS. In this game there was a lot of setup speculation, which kind of took the place of RVS, so I found RVS votes unnecessary and slightly scummy. In addition to the lack of content, the fact that Slaxx hasn't done anything (I know that there are others), he earned my vote.

[farside22]

@Farside

1.Slaxx just corrected his RVS vote. If you do a quick Iso read, he's responding to the lack of update on his vote or miscount on his vote. In terms of both players I'll break it down into 3 components, content, actions, and general posts.

Content and posts are agreeable to be the same, but Slaxx is actually doing something by voting. I might agree, like you that it could have been a better vote but Mav and Ani aren't providing anything.

This to me is scummier then Slaxx. A RVS is better then thin air when we have a week deadline for day 1, especially when you posted 2 hours after CSL's post, rather then Slaxx's 6 minutes.

2. Scratch that you are scum. Only scum would care about lynching specific factions. Seriously, we have 2 teams of 2 which equals two 4 scum players that we have to lynch. How does it not make sense to list off your top 4 suspects? I don't know what factions these 4 players are in together, if they are scum they are just scum.

If you have to justify whether or not they are "fire" or "ice" now that's just silly.

Unvote. Vote farside22

.

Your putting four players together as one scum group how does that help exactly when there is two scum groups?

So a vote from many pages ago doesn't count, it's still an RVS vote and he doesn't carry on the conversation in anyway. States the speculation takes away from scum hunting (doesn't scum hunt) and repeats his vote and this makes him town in some way over slaxx?

I think I know who slaxx scum partner is folks

[Slaxx]

Sigh. Lets try this again. Speculation of game =/= scumhunting. I repeated my vote on Pom because nothing went through the first time. I gave you a very legit reason as to why I hadn't participated in any discussion yet. Gheb starts a wagon me, which is fine because now we have discussion. He justifies it by saying that a random vote is a guise for no activity. I could make the exact same assumption concerning game speculation. All we're doing by laying this out is derailing discussion. Hopefully common sense would tell people possibilities of what happened (which, when presented with more than one possibility, is almost always WIFOM anyway).


Now that I'm done with my useless part of posting, I can go on to more important matters.

Pomegranate's questions are more useless than my vote. At least it created actual scumhunting discussion.

Farside already looking for scum partners 6 pages in is kind of ridiculous. We have no confirmed guilties or innocents besides ourselves. Buddying up/ sucking up is one thing, but I see none of that in any posts so far.

Mavsfan and xofelf have absolutely nothing, and I wonder why only one of them is on the wagon.

But anyway, I hope people realized that my one RV striked more discussion than all the other stuff previously combined, and that it was a protown move. Trying to pull it off as otherwise and make out game speculation to be more productive is simply foolish.

[farside22]

Farside already looking for scum partners 6 pages in is kind of ridiculous. We have no confirmed guilties or innocents besides ourselves. Buddying up/ sucking up is one thing, but I see none of that in any posts so far.

Why is it that DTmaster mentions a scum group and you don't say boo to him?

Also my post is in response to how he acted when I comment about him putting four people together in a group then anything.

Actually your post is much better here except for you repeating what DTMaster said about you, which I really dislike people doing for any reason.

Why did you wait to comment on things till now with more vigger? Why do you find the first few pages useless?

[Slaxx]

Farside already looking for scum partners 6 pages in is kind of ridiculous. We have no confirmed guilties or innocents besides ourselves. Buddying up/ sucking up is one thing, but I see none of that in any posts so far.

Why is it that DTmaster mentions a scum group and you don't say boo to him?

Also my post is in response to how he acted when I comment about him putting four people together in a group then anything.

Actually your post is much better here except for you repeating what DTMaster said about you, which I really dislike people doing for any reason.

Why did you wait to comment on things till now with more vigger? Why do you find the first few pages useless?

1. You're right. He did. Boo on him. However, his has more than just words behind it...His has a vote (rather a contradiction between words and a vote), which is a little bit more solid. He makes a good point, a better point, rather, than you do. Why WOULD gheb vote for someone less suspicious?

2. No, not quite. You accused us of being scum partners.

3. and 4. I'm sorry he got around to justifying my actions before I did. Can't help it. I'm at my university all day on tuesdays and seldom post before night on said days. And I don't get what YOU dont get about my justification for finding the first pages useless. I've layed it out time and time and time again. Game speculation =/= scumhunting. All it got us was a deadline due to lack of conversation.

[farside22]

I really don't see it as a lack of conversation and I think that is where you and I don't see it as the same.
That said your comments have indeed improved and thus no longer scummy.

unvote:
vote: mavs

[DTMaster]

@Pom
Seriously? And Mav and Animorph did more then Slaxx? Show me please k thanks using only page 1-5 (and the start of page 6).

You say that RVS is better then posting nothing. But this is what I see with the lack of Mav and Ani posting, and Slaxx is still scummier then them despite you saying:

In general it's better to have RVS.

In this game there was a lot of setup speculation, which kind of took the place of RVS, so I found RVS votes unnecessary and slightly scummy. In addition to the lack of content, the fact that Slaxx hasn't done anything (I know that there are others), he earned my vote.

@Farside
1. It helps when you have top scum suspects. Does it matter the order of the lynch? No. Does it matter if I group them into teams? No. If they are scummy, and I put forward a list of suspects it means they all should get the noose at that moment.

You are deflecting from the point of

me putting forward a scum list of my top 4 scum in the broad definition of scum

. Ice and Fire scum = just scum to me because they cannot cross kill. In the town's POV, both scum act pretty much like 2 linked scum groups that don't know each other (the twist is that they want to kill each other but they can't do it from cross kills). Hence, the giant umbrella name of scum.

Also, this is very awesome now.

Unvote

Vote: Mavs

[/sup]

[The Quintastic One]

So you put mild pressure on a person, they put up at least a halfway logical answer, and then you unvote and vote on the next best target? I'm not saying I ever believed Slaxx of being scummy, but what are you gonna do when Mav eventually finds his way back to this thread and posts a mildly logical argument against your vote?

It seems like your just going after mildly inactive easy targets rather than really believing these guys to be scum. Which would explain why your not exactly being aggressive in your pursuits, but I still don't like how you're just bouncing around without really solidifying your scumtells. But I'm still waiting on hearing from Ani and Mav about the accusations brought to them before I consider you strongly. sooo

PoS (pinky of suspicion): Farside22.

[The Quintastic One]

EBWOP: That was obviously directed towards Farside, I didn't see DTMasters post beforehand.

[Gheb]

DTM, I think you gravely misjudged me. I am neither a newbie nor am I scared of hopping a bandwagon. I merely tried to create viable platforms for discussion after noticing that set-up speculation and random questions couldn't do as much.

To answer your question: In general placing a random vote isn't as suspicious as doing nothing at all. However, at a stage where attempts to

leave

the RVS are being made I find it more suspicious if somebody tried to oppose this process and that is exactly what Slaxx did in my eyes. Pounding an absolutely random vote without any reasoning at all (except that the game moderator seemed to not include it in the vote count earlier) looked more like a distraction point than anything else to me at that time.
What was impossible for me to know at that time (but I do know now) is the fact that Slaxx' random vote turned out to have created discussion directly related to scunhunting. Given that it looks like I have been wrong all the time but there was no way for me to know up until now. At this point it's fairly obvious that Slaxx' actions have more merit than what other people said (or rather

not

said)

Unvote

What I do find interesting (this is still @DTM) is the fact that out of the 3 inactive / useless people you only mentioned only morph and mavs but take no note of xoxelf whatsoever despite me mentioning him/her just as much as the other two players. Why is that? You single out mavs for the sake of a bandwagon (which is OK with me) but completely fail to mention that everything you said also applies to morph

and

xoxelf at the same time? And yet, you complain about me voting Slaxx', which at that time was a completely legitimate move? If you earnestly call me a hypocrite for voting Slaxx' over one of the three other players then you are a hypocrite just as much because you vote a player for doing something that somebody else - xoxelf, whom you ironically choose to ignore - has also done.
If you really want me to take your point seriously it might be a good idea for you to explain what xoxelf has done that the other two players haven't. Before you do that I take your post as an attempt to nudge or manipulate me since you seem to think that I'm a newbie to forumafia.

Why WOULD gheb vote for someone less suspicious?

At that time I found your behaviour more suspicious - now that you've explained yourself I have to agree that it's less suspicious but there was no way for me to know how you'd react or if some of the other suspect would've spoken up. I don't think my vote against you - even if there are better targets now - was unjustified at that time. There was a legitimate reason behind it and it helped to get serious discussion started.

More to come later - I have to go to work now.

[farside22]

@DTMaster
Just looking at your group of scum it seems 3 people are because of mavsen, including mavsen. Morph is on his own. It seemed to me your matching players up based on what they say in regards to him, again except morph.

[farside22]

So you put mild pressure on a person, they put up at least a halfway logical answer, and then you unvote and vote on the next best target? I'm not saying I ever believed Slaxx of being scummy, but what are you gonna do when Mav eventually finds his way back to this thread and posts a mildly logical argument against your vote?

It seems like your just going after mildly inactive easy targets rather than really believing these guys to be scum. Which would explain why your not exactly being aggressive in your pursuits, but I still don't like how you're just bouncing around without really solidifying your scumtells. But I'm still waiting on hearing from Ani and Mav about the accusations brought to them before I consider you strongly. sooo

PoS (pinky of suspicion): Farside22.

My vote on slaxx was for lack of participation in the game at hand or did you miss my reason's for voting for him.

mavs is definately one of the players that offered nothing this game. However his nothing is less then morph (still suspect) pop (pointless questions do not provoke scum hunting) elf (I'm busy but here's a post)
Elf and morph are dangerously close for who I find scummier based or their post but still offer just that little bit more then mansv.

[CSL]

I am satisfied with what happened between 10pm and now! Keep up the posting, because what you do now decides how long the deadline WOULD be on Day 2 if you guys deserve one. :)

[Pomegranate]

DTM: Though in general there is clearly a RVS, I think it's scummy to RV when there isn't RVS (because of setup or mechanic discussion.) It feels to me thta he was trying to start up a RVS, even though we were past a point where something like that was necessary or helpful.

[DTMaster]

@Pom
Even with Slaxx's recent post?

@Gheb
Let me repeat my self.

The diffrence between Xoxelf and Ani versus Mav is

MAV POSTED AFTER CSL GOD POSTED THE DEADLINE

. I have yet to check Ani's or Xoxelf's posts to see if they are posting else where, but with the current information:

MAV SHOULD HAVE KNOWN THAT THE DEADLINE IS IN A WEEK

. If Ani or Xoxelf posted after CSL's announcement they deserve the same treatment.

Hence why it is my prefrence to run Mav up the wagon because

HE HAS NO EXCUSE TO NOT SCUM HUNT

. If Ani and Xoxelf aren't posting in other games, it means that they are legitly not on this website.

I caps the important part so you wouldn't miss it, again. My issue is with the timing of the posts. Xoxelf and Ani's are very useless, but Mav posted 2 hours after CSL's 1 week deadline announcement.

He knew at the time of that post that our time to scum hunt is drastically reduced and contributed nothing

.


@Farside
Yes, you are correct.

@CSL

Can you prod Morph, Xoxelf and Mav, given that our deadline is so short

[CSL]

Mav has 1 more day. Animorpherv will be prodded, and I have prodded xofelf via AIM.

[Slaxx]

DTM: Though in general there is clearly a RVS, I think it's scummy to RV when there isn't RVS (because of setup or mechanic discussion.) It feels to me thta he was trying to start up a RVS, even though we were past a point where something like that was necessary or helpful.

So even after game mechanic speculation yielded next to nothing and my vote sparked a very productive conversation, and even after you admitted RVS is a good way to get discussion going, you still think this? I'm becoming happy with my vote on you. There was never an RVS to begin with. There were only 3 votes cast when I cast mine. One quarter of the players voting is not RVS. Sorry. Its not. So I started it up. And look where we are now.

A lot more than your useless questions/ filler post did for town.

[Pomegranate]

You started RVS, but after the setup discussion, all you did was castnegative attention on yourself, IMHO.

On the other hand, your recent posting is better.

Unvote

.

[The Quintastic One]

So if I understand this correctly, we're basing our current choice of lynches on an unwritten "lynch all lurkers" rule. Since obviously nobody seems to be finding anything scummy said by anyone currently active, we're hoping that inactive players = scum so that the day can progress as normal.

Well then my original pressure vote on Elf will work just fine I suppose. Since I've seen nothing worthy of an argument that supports Mav or Ani over Elf, they're all lurkers. And sorry if this sounds harsh, but if your so busy with school work that you can't play the game, why did you sign up for the game in the first place? I say either lynch the lurkers or the lurkers need to respectfully replace out for someone who's going to have a more vested interest in scum hunting.

[Kmd4390]

As far as town reads, meh, scum aren't going to say "well Kmd says X is town, so let's not kill them" unless the next day is LYLO. Early in the game, I don't see the problem.

That's not what I'm getting at.
You say "hey, I think player X is town!" Does town benefit from that statement at all in terms of scumhunting? Not really. Mafia however does benefit from that information. You basically tell everybody in the game "hey, I trust this guy!". By saying that you paint a huge target for the mafia on that player's back. Why would you do that to a player that you think is town? You want to keep these guys around for as long as possible.

You don't really dispute my point here that scum aren't looking at just MY opinions. I'm telling you I have reads on players and what they are. If someone disagrees, and gives me a good reason why, we debate it and get a more clear opinion. There is no negative side to giving an opinion about a player.

--------------------

Reading the post where Farside votes Saint, and Saint's reaction, I can see Saint as scum.

-------------------

Animorph, if you aren't seeing it, I don't know what to tell you. No doc, whether they've been doc before or not, should be coming out of Night 1 and saying "OMG GUYS IM THE DOC AND I DID THIS LAST NIGHT". It should never happen, so advising against such actions seems pointless.

------------------

Slaxx, can you elaborare on why you think Pom is scum?

------------------

Mavs post 107 convinces me of absolutely nothing positive about Mav. I think he's scum. I'm not happy with his response. I want him to hang today.

-----------------

Pom, questions are ok depending on how it's done. Specifically RVS vs RQS, I don't use either. I very rarely random vote. I look for something scummy, no matter how small, and attack it. Then I take that player's actions and everyone else's reaction to it and formulate an opinion on everyone else as well.

-----------------

CSL, in 112, makes a great case against Mav. I am now convinced that he's scum.

[farside22]

Reading the post where Farside votes Saint, and Saint's reaction, I can see Saint as scum.

Thank you I need to remind myself about this since he went on V/LA that I still think he is scum and that hasn't changed, but mansv lynch is more then what The Quintastic One. There is a thing call content. Providing and moving the game along. Saying it's a lurker lynch is really downplaying the reasoning behind mansv.

[The Quintastic One]

*shrug* whether you call it a lurker lynch or a lynching due to lack of content lynch, it's all about the same principal. Doesn't really make a difference to me. If I were to switch my vote from Elf to Mav it would be soley for the fact that I would jump on the wagon in order to get day 1 over with quicker. But as far as I stand, I see no difference in the behavior of Elf, Mav or Ani. All of them can get the hammer as far as I'm concerned.

[SaintKerrigan]

Mod: I need to be replaced.

I'm really sorry about this, but mafia is actually stressing me out right now. That's a pretty good sign that I need to take a break.

[Kmd4390]

The Mavs lynch IS a lurker lynch. But it's not "hey, let's pick a random lurker and lynch them". It's "he's scummy and his lurking is part of the reasoning behind that".