Newbie 906 - Game Over!

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/confirm

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@Kelyn- The main difference between SE and IC is the amount of experience that is required. So mostly an SE is still kinda new to the site and hasn't played as many games as of yet. Outside of that, there isn't too much of a difference between the two.

RF's vote switching isn't necessarily a scum tell right now, but it is possible that it could lead to some interesting discussion later on, so while I am not too concerned about it right now, I will be paying attention to how he votes.

It seems that to this point everyone has gotten an avatar, which makes paying attention to this game that much easier.

Rolefishing=bad, please don't do it. It doesn't help the town at all and gives the scum a lot more information than they need to have.

That is all for now, expect more later

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In my opinion, defensiveness is good so long as you are defending yourself correctly. There is a point, and its different for everyone, and it becomes too much and makes you look scummy. Also, when you are on the defensive, don't just worry about defending yourself. A great player is one who, while defending themselves well, they can also competently scumhunt and progress the town.

Meta, is also a personal thing on how it is used. Personally, I don't like to use it because they are playing in this game, and not other ones. Over time people learn how to play better and how to mask there play more, so relying solely on meta is a poor choice, but it can help you get a feel for a player. So in closing, I will look at previous games to get an idea of how they play normally, but meta will not be the basis of any case that I make

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@redbox: You say that the person who talks the most,

in real life

, has the most to hide, well that may be true, but this is mafia in a forum setting, so the criteria on the person talking the most is different. I don't think talking a lot is necessarily a scum tell, however, talking a lot but saying nothing is, and I think a lot of people get tripped up here. My belief is quality>quantity. Some people might have a high volume of posts and those posts may be full of useful information on other players that generate discussion and help us find scum, while others may have a high volume of posts to clutter up the thread and discourage people from trying to figure out what they are saying, which is likely nothing. In that case, I would say the first set of people are more likely to be town because they are genuinely trying to help the town while the latter group is most likely scum because scum wants to cause misdirection and try to stifle discussion. I am also more inclined to look at someone who maybe hasn't posted as much as they should or could because it is harder to slip up when you aren't saying much.

@kelyn: What about a person who might not have a lot to say in the beginning because they are trying to figure out what it is they want to say? Would you advocate lynching a player because they may be "actively lurking" on D1 but have shown in the past that in later days they are more active? If the answer to the above question was no, what if it was close to deadline and it was that or a no-lynch?

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@PranaDevil: So you would have reacted the same if kelyn had voted for someone other than yourself? If yes, would you have voiced that opinion?

Vote: jmurph13

Sure it might be early in the game, but you have 7 posts, which is more than a post a page so far, and the fact that we are only 1 day in to Day 1, means you have been fairly active at least, but so far, the only thing you have done to progress the discussion is accuse Ray of being defensive once. You keep bringing up your avatar being Carmen Sandiego and seem more content to talk about avatars than the game.

@Apathy: You took a look at RF and that's good, but early in the game you should be looking at more than just one player, how do you feel about everyone else?

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Saying "I am a noob" is generally frowned upon. Most people will guess that you are either more or less experienced based on when you joined the site. And being quiet isn't necessarily a bad thing, so long as what you say as meaning.

redbox: do you feel that kelyn's vote of PranaDevil was random? Would you say that we are still in the Random Vote Stage (RVS)

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@redbox: I would disagree with you. I would say RVS ended almost immediately, if there really was one. RVS is meant to stimulate discussion, and isn't necessary in every game, I would say that there has been plenty of discussion so far that we are no longer in RVS.

@jmurph3: It is early in the day, but that doesn't mean that there is nothing you can do to facilitate discussion. Ask people questions (pertinent ones), re-read things that have been said and think to yourself, why would town say this and why would scum say this and which is more likely to be the case for a particular person. Not having anything to talk about should rarely be an excuse, and if you really don't have anything to talk about, talking about nonsensical things such as avatars (outside of encouraging a player to get one) is not the way to go, it just distracts the town, and I realize that you weren't the only one doing it, but for some reason, you doing it just jumped out at me.

@PranaDevil: Thank you for answering my question, albeit in a different post than you intended, but I am not sure that you really said anything beneficial before that, you just said you talk a lot and that was all that I got out of that.

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@Skillz: In a newbie game where I am the IC, I tend to have more informative posts to help people understand game mechanics. If I am addressing a person, I like to keep all of my thoughts condensed into one paragraph rather than bulleting them or only giving two lines at a time. That mostly comes down to the fact that I am used to writing essays for my major, so that is a function of my writing style. As such, I don't believe that I have asked the same question to a single player more than once. Every one of my questions helps me to decide whether or not I believe a person to be town or not, and that is how I scumhunt. By getting people to open up about their case, I can see if their case holds water, or if it is just a sinking ship, which also helps me determine how strongly they believe something.

@jmurph: You might be getting frustrated, but my case on you really does come down to you aren't posting enough content, and even now, you still aren't. Counting how many people are voting you isn't going to stop them from voting for you.

@RF: I don't like the fact that you are defending jmurph so much. As with any game, if a certain player has come under suspicion, it is their job to provide reasoning that the suspicion on them is unwarranted by posting a valid defense and showing a considered effort in hunting for the scum. I believe, right now, that you are a townie who is just trying to help a newbie out, but it is his job to defend himself.

@PD and PE: Don't be so quick to jump on a bandwagon. My vote against jmurph was an attempt to get him involved in the game, I want to see everyone posting content, and just agreeing with my case isn't a strong basis for either of your votes, because frankly, my case wasn't all that strong at the time that I made it.

@PD: I don't really see how RF was putting words in your mouth. It is not often good to lynch a townie, and resigning yourself to the belief that you are going to lynch a townie is not a pro-town choice.

I also never said that I thought Apathy was tunneling, I was just asking him to expand his views, it is rather hard to tunnel in one short series of posts where I don't believe there was a response to anything he said in there either.

My vote is staying where it is for now, because jmurph hasn't done anything to convince me that they are useful for the town and I am not getting an overly scummy read from anyone right now, and in my mind, useless town is second preferred lynch to scum, which is not to say that I don't think jmurph is scum.

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Sorry, my girlfriend was here this weekend, so I didn't have much computer time, I will read up on the developments of the weekend and get back to everyone as soon as I can

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RF: I did have something to say to apathy, I had asked him to elaborate on what it was that he was saying, and to look at other players as well.

PD: Why are you still bringing up a pair of me and apathy when you even admitted that I didn't forget about Apathy and that I have mentioned him. I also don't like how you were mentioning setting up lynches. You have no idea what anyone will flip right now, and therefore should not be looking to lynch someone based on a certain flip, that in itself is inherently scummy. Everything you say is predicated on RF flipping scum, what if he is town?

RB: My "case" on jmurph3 was entirely that I didn't feel she was contributing to the game in any way and was therefore trying to get her more involved in the game. Voting with people that you find scummy, is scummy. If you think 2 people are scum, then in a game where we know that there are only 2 scum, how could you then vote for person #3?

I agree with RF on the implication that he is jmurph's partner in RB's post, and that direct implication seems very scummy to me.

PE: Why is it so necessary to extend the day all the time? A lot of what has happened on this site is people keep extending days longer than necessary and it causes a need for a large number of replacements because people get bored of the game moving slowly and nothing actually happening. I am not saying that we should end today now, but for future reference, if the town is ready for a lynch, then it is ready for a lynch, not it is ready for a lynch but we should wait until deadline to make it.

To everyone who has said they are off to bed, it really isn't necessary, we know that there are times when people need to sleep, and posting that you are going to bed is something that I don't believe we need to know.

The game that I was with RF in was a Newbie where I was the IC, I made an awful play and spent the day trying to avoid getting lynched and one of the scum was replaced and I was lynched because they wanted to let the replacement catch up.

Jammer: I would like to see a true analysis of everyone in this game, including the player that you replaced, as if you were a third party, not just saying they are neutral, and from that, make a list of 3 people that you would put at the top of a "scum list"

Skill: I am now confused that you thought I was confused. I ask questions all game, its how I glean information from people. The answers to my questions often bring up follow up questions which are often the direct result of an answer and therefore, analysis of the answer isn't prudent. I don't like to bring forth information unless I am making a legitimate case against someone, or if it is directly asked of me.

FoS: PranaDevil

- I do not like how you are trying to direct the town to lynching RayFrost. Unless I am missing something, since you started this "lynch RayFrost" campaign, you have not once taken into account that you might be wrong. You seem to be criticizing Skill for thinking RF is town, and PE for not voting for RF. I believe that this could be a case of town v. town and would like PD to look at everyone else in the game before he mentions RF again.

To answer jammer's questions:

I am not liking jmurph. The early talk about her avatar, then non defense of herself (only to be saved by RF), and now the setting up of lynches, which I stated above is scummy, just makes me not like her as town more and more.
I also suspect RB for voting for Person C along with Person A and Person B (both of which he has said he is suspicious of)
My third scummiest read comes from Apathy, he has only posted a couple times and both have been cases against RF with limited mentioning of everyone else

One possibility from the PD-RF debate is town v. town, which I think is the most likely possibility. I didn't like the defense that RF gave of jmurph, but I completely see where he would be coming from as a townie, especially with how quickly the votes followed, and to be completely honest, I was surprised with how quickly a bandwagon was formed. I think both PD and RF are town and this whole argument is coming from two townies confusing each other for scum.

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RF: Am I to infer that you think I am contradicting myself by quoting those two portions of that post?

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The FoS was originally a vote, but as I continued thinking about it, I began to think it was a Town v. Town argument, but I still am of the opinion that PD perpetrated more and I put the FoS there to show that I felt he was more in the wrong on that, rather than me thinking that he is scum.

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It makes sense in my head. Maybe it would have been more appropriate as an IGMEOY, than an FoS, but yes, it more comes down to that I felt he was more at fault than I am overly suspicious of him, as he doesn't make my top 3

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I know what an FoS is. So yea, it is a contradiction of the meaning of FoS, my intention was not the suspicion, more the I am watching him, so an IGMEOY is the appropriate terminology. but I can't take back what I have written, only hope to explain what my intentions were.

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@Jammer: I am not supposed to help you in finding scum, that is your job. I ask questions and receive information that I use in formulating my ideas on who I think the scum is. It seems you are voting for me because of a difference in playstyle. I am not one to post just to hear myself say things. Why do you think my reasons for voting jmurph are for being bad town, as opposed to scum, especially when in your next analysis, you call her scummy? That seems to be a more glaring contradiction than the one that I made.

And for the record, I realize that I made a contradiction, and what I meant by what I was doing could have been better expressed, but if that's the only thing that is against me right now, I would say that's a weaker case than most anything that has come up to this point.

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I might have misinterpreted what he was saying. To me it seemed like he was relying on my input to find scum.

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There is no reason for you to be brief, at least in my opinion. As someone who is replacing in, it seems most beneficial to the town to see your views as you read over the thread.

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@Skill: To answer your question, my top 2 would be jmurph3 and redbox with apathy coming in third.

Here is why I don't like redbox:

He hasn't said all that much in this game at all. He is voting for RF with the 2 people that he is most suspicious of. He made a statement that would imply that RF and jmurph are scumpartners and just let everyone have fun with it and tried to explain it away. And here is some food for thought: He made that statement as a calculated move, trying to deflect attention away from jmurph and draw the heat to one of the more experienced players who had been posting a lot at the time (RF). It is a fairly weak case at the moment, but with his posting sparingly, its hard to build a strong one outside of he seems to be lurking.

Apathy really has to do with a lack of doing anything in this game. He made the one case against RF and hasn't been seen or heard from since, it just doesn't sit well with me.

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I am posting now to let everyone know that I won't have computer access this weekend, so I will see you all on Monday.

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My reads on players:

Skill: Posts sparingly and overall seems unsure of her points, and likes to sit on the fence. Posts a case on jammer recently and waiting for a response to it.

PD: Getting a big town read from him, after he reconsidered his positions in the game, has been a more balanced player and has gotten over his tunnel-vision from earlier, this is good to see and shows a maturity in game which will only benefit the town later on.

PE: Is scumhunting, disappears at times, which is ok because when he does post, its generally good and has content, leaning town here.

Phaen (redbox): Still catching up it seems, so is posting a lot of summary and showing her views of what happened in the early game. Her behavior is showing signs of town, but my suspicion of the person she replaced is still there and as such I still think this player spot is scum.

Apathy: Scum, at this point I think its completely clearcut. He hasn't done anything all game except make a case against Ray and distance himself from that case, while criticizing the actions that followed. Where am I contradicting myself (with the exception of the FoS that was meant as an IGMEOY, because that has already been mentioned). What reasoning do you have for calling me "inexperienced". What makes someone an "easy lynch" in your eyes since you are accusing RF of going after them.

RF: Strong town read from him. Very active and trying to keep the game moving. Defends himself when necessary and is scumhunting well.

jmurph: Concedes points to PE, and has agreed with what everyone else has said before. Tries to build a case on Apathy using what others have said and explaining why she agrees with that, but it seems hollow to me.

Jammer: Hasn't posted much since replacing in and kelyn hadn't posted much prior to replacing out, as such, I don't know what to think as I haven't been able to get a huge read out of this slot.

My answers to others questions of me:

@Skill: Why would you not want to lynch your prime suspect? If I felt that you were my prime suspect, then I would try my hardest to get you lynched. That is why jmurph was jumped on for that statement.

Regarding my case against jmurph: Yes at the beginning it was for not posting content, but it had evolved, especially with her reactions to the second and third votes that were placed on her. She seemingly gave up and didn't even try to defend herself until RF came in and defended her. Now, my case, as it was doesn't hold enough water for my vote, so I will

unvote

, however, that doesn't mean that I still don't find her suspicious, because I do. And before anyone accuses me of tunneling, just because my vote was on a specific person, doesn't mean that I am entirely focused on someone.

Right now, I really don't like what Apathy is doing. He is trying to dumb down PD's actions to a bunch of actions that happened immediately when in fact they happened over the course of several posts and an attack that forced him to reconsider how he was playing the game. Your lack of a defense of yourself, other than trying to discredit PD and trying to push across the RF lynch.

Vote: Apathy

. That should be the third vote on him, bringing him to L-2. Personally, I am ok with his lynch right now.

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Well, what do you want to see from me?

Everything I have said there comes completely from my head and isn't influenced by what anyone else has said. If I have seemingly similar views to others, then so be it, but all of my post is straight from me.

What do I want from jammer? Anything really. He hasn't posted much since his vote on me a week ago, and despite a flurry of activity upon replacing in, that slot hasn't done much of anything.

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@Jammer: I have been stating my views when they come up. I have stated who I am suspicious of and why I am suspicious of them, so tell me how that is fence sitting? I also never stated that I have been the most "active" player in the game. Lastly, many characters does not an "active" player make. I admit that I have my faults when it comes to play, could I be more "active" sure, but this is the way I play.

Regarding the Apathy claim: The way I see it, he has been very scummy in my opinion to this point in the game, and if he does happen to claim a power role, we have to evaluate a) how he has played to this point (scummy), b) will he get better on subsequent days (personally, doubt it) c) are we better off as a town with or without Apathy as a PR. My opinion on C is, I think we are better off without him regardless, because I haven't seen anything from him at all. The only positive from letting him live as a PR is that it makes scum "waste" a kill on eliminating PR-Apathy.

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@Apathy: The only reason I said RF looked suspicious was because of his early vote-hopping. Outside of that, he seemed very much like a pro-town player. He posts often and has tried to move the game along as best he could. Therefore, the pros far outweigh the cons in my mind, considering if you look hard enough, everyone makes mistakes that could be construed as scum tells.

For future reference, if you are going to use someone else's posts in yours, please bold it or use quote tags, otherwise it makes it almost impossible to decipher where your thoughts start and the other person's end.

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@Jammer: I started the case against jmurph, so I don't see how that makes it fence-sitting. I have also expressed who I believe to be scum, and with that, I don't see how you can say I am fence-sitting. You say my last analysis posted general info, when I believe that I stated that I believed that jmurph and Apathy were scum, with the redbox/Phaen slot seeming scummy. Outside of that, I don't think I need to say, I believe everyone else is town, that just seems silly to me. Let me know if I am misinterpreting something you are saying

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@jmurph: The difference between what I was doing, which really came down to keeping my vote on you because I didn't have a better option until I moved it to Apathy, and what PD was doing to Ray, was PD was consistently attacking Ray without really even looking at anyone else. So I didn't move my vote, that happens very often in games, I was at least looking at other people, and when I found a better spot for my vote, I moved it there. If you can show me a post where all I said was jmurph is scum, jmurph is scum, I am not going to look at anyone else because jmurph is scum (not those specific words, but the general idea of the post), then I will concede that I was tunneling, but I don't believe you will find that.

@PD: The context that I read jammer's post in made it seem, to me at least, that I was supposed to reveal to him who the scum was, with him having to do little to no scumhunting. That is why I responded in the way I did. I hope that is not what he meant, but when I saw that post, that was the way I read it. If that makes me look scummy, then so be it, but it is not my intention to impede the hunting of scum.

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@Apathy: I do not wish to show why I believe RF to be town because that isn't going to affect anything other than scum, showing why he could be a good target. Your fishing for my beliefs regarding that is really scummy and makes me believe in my vote on you all the more. Why are you so interested in this anyway?

@Jammer: I acknowledged that the initial case on jmurph was weak, but it didn't change the fact that I felt she was scum. At this point, any accusations of me tunneling on her comes from everyone else's constant prodding of my vote being there for most of the day. I had stated earlier in the day that I was suspicious of Apathy and moved my vote to him when I felt that it was appropriate in my own mind.

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Bolding is my response to his post. I took out the contradiction as that has already been previously discussed, not discounting the point, just not in the mood to repeat myself again.

@RF: I don't like the fact that you are defending jmurph so much. As with any game, if a certain player has come under suspicion, it is their job to provide reasoning that the suspicion on them is unwarranted by posting a valid defense and showing a considered effort in hunting for the scum. I believe, right now, that you are a townie who is just trying to help a newbie out, but it is his job to defend himself.

Upon re-reading, I wouldn't say Ray is defending jmurph. He attacks the case and those jumping on it. Especially considering his 'defense' consists of showing how the case at the time shows jmurph as new, and not scum (although I disagree, but meh, different story). It seems as though you don't like Ray attacking your 'weak case'. Did Ray's 'defense' of jmurph convince you either way of her alignment?

By attacking the case, he was indirectly defending jmurph. He basically undermined what I was trying to do at the time. It wasn't so much Ray's defense that did anything by way of determining my view on jmurph's alignment, as it was jmurph's lack of a defense after the other votes on the bandwagon.

@PD and PE: Don't be so quick to jump on a bandwagon. My vote against jmurph was an attempt to get him involved in the game, I want to see everyone posting content, and just agreeing with my case isn't a strong basis for either of your votes, because frankly, my case wasn't all that strong at the time that I made it.

You're right, the case wasn't strong enough for a lynch. However, it was the strongest one at the time and it did provoke exactly what your vote attempted to do. I find this contradictory.

What did you find contradictory there, it was more of an advisory post, and plus, my vote was not meant to bring on a bandwagon, because at L-2 (which was what she was at after you and PD voted) scum, albeit stupid scum, can steamroll a lynch.

PE: Why is it so necessary to extend the day all the time? A lot of what has happened on this site is people keep extending days longer than necessary and it causes a need for a large number of replacements because people get bored of the game moving slowly and nothing actually happening. I am not saying that we should end today now, but for future reference, if the town is ready for a lynch, then it is ready for a lynch, not it is ready for a lynch but we should wait until deadline to make it.

You weren't the only one, but you continued the line of thought that I was trying to extend the day for day's sake. I specifically mentioned people who needed to catch up and that I didn't agree with the case on the person who was about to be lynched. Two good reasons to extend the day in my books.

That's fine, but once again, more of an advisory post

*snip IC teaching*

The game that I was with RF in was a Newbie where I was the IC, I made an awful play and spent the day trying to avoid getting lynched and one of the scum was replaced and I was lynched because they wanted to let the replacement catch up.

Are you saying we shouldn't let replacements catch up? I is confuzzled.

In that post, I was merely saying that just because someone is getting replaced, it doesn't mean that they can't be lynched just because you want to see what the replacement will say, if that slot is scum, nothing is going to change that.

tl;dr:
Why Fuzzy would be scum:
Wishy-washy opinions on the majority of players.

I have expressed who I think are my top suspects for scum, therefore, I think it stands to reason that the other players would be town. Why should I have to state that?

Many points made by him were already made by others.

That's because most of the time, my posts came after the "action" has already happened, so others had a chance to chime in before me. It doesn't mean my thoughts are not my own.

The case he votes for is made by others.

If you are referring to jmurph, my vote was there long before, just didn't move because I didn't see a better place for it.

His jump on the Apathy bandwagon seems opportunistic.

As you said yourself, I expressed suspicion on him long before anyone else. The time that I moved my vote was when I believed that he was scummier than the person that my vote had been previously on.

My gut (probably not a convincing point for the rest of you).

Can't really say anything about your gut

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@jmurph: I never said to lynch you because you were useless, so I would appreciate it if you would not put words in my mouth. I only outlined that point in the event that Apathy tried claiming a power role, and never used it in reference to you.

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I have made my views on this known before, I believe that Apathy is still the best lynch for the day. I think allowing the replacement to catch up would be less beneficial to the town than just lynching Apathy and taking the information that we would receive from his flip. I believe that more people have Apathy on their short list to lynch than any one else, so lynching another player would be "settling" for a lynch rather than being a lynch that we believe to be scum.

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I speak when spoken to or when I have something worthwhile to say. I don't like to talk to just fill a void. In that regard, Day 1 is always a let's get through this and then analyze for Day 2. In a newbie game I try and post more than normal (although, admittedly not much more) in order to help the newbies understand the mechanics of the game. In response to Zorblag's claim that I don't look at the rest of the players, I do look at every player. However, if I believe that A & B are scum (and that they are scum together) then that means that everyone else is town, so I might not focus on them a whole lot, but that doesn't mean I am not watching them.

I am not, nor will I ever be, a huge poster (either in length or in number). I can tell you that I am town all I want, it is up to you guys to believe me or not.

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EBWOP: My top 2 haven't changed: Apathy/Zorblag and jmurph3

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There really wasn't much there for me to defend myself against. The case against me comes down to, he isn't being as active as we want him to be so therefore he must be scum. I can't really defend myself against that because its my playstyle to not say much on Day 1.

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@ Zorblag: Alright, my basis for the lynching Apathy even if he had declared a town power role was because of his inactivity. His posts seemed too far apart for him to guaranteed be around at night. Not only that, but there is no guarantee that he would have been very beneficial in his investigations if he had been the cop because he didn't look at anyone outside of RF and the back and forth with PD, two people that the rest of the town believes are town. Sure, there is a chance that he could have gotten lucky with his investigation or a protect had he been doc, but I felt that the way he was playing during the day was more detrimental to the town. My playstyle is more analytical then anything, and on Day 1 it might not be as good, but when I am able to analyze prior actions with the knowledge of a flip, I am more able to help the town with my views.

@ Skill: As I just said, I am an analytical player. If I see something scummy, I generally catalog it and use it later on when I am ready to build a case on someone. Normally that doesn't happen much on Day 1, because I look back on previous actions and how people interacted with others. In the beginning I was asking questions of every player and trying to get discussion going in that way, so saying that I did nothing to facilitate discussion is false, but could I have done more, probably. I am just not always the best player Day 1.

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Most of it was at the end of his time, where he was facing a lynch and there wasn't much that he could do about his fate, without getting replaced. And even if there isn't a lot of content, there is always a bandwagon or two that can be looked at. That is what I generally analyze. In my experience, there has always been at least 1 scum on every Townie lynch Day 1.

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I have nothing else to add that I haven't already said. Feel free to drop the hammer.

Good luck town. Look closely at this wagon.

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QT's are definitely the way I like to go when I am modding games. They are so much easier, and it is a way to make sure the mafia are staying in line when it comes to only talking at night.

Even though I didn't have the longest life in this game, it was a good game to play in and I had fun. I knew it was the redbox slot as scum but I was wrong in my other guess as I really thought it was Apathy/Troll.

For those who were wondering, I try and gather information by reading more than speaking and anyone who knows me in real life can tell you that I am not really a very vocal person in anything I do until I have something that I can back up. If I make a case on someone, you can know that I am fully behind it. However, my playstyle often gets me lynched on Day 1 because it seems like I am actively lurking, and I guess by the definition of it, I am but as the game goes on, I can be a formidable open.