Newbie 906 - Game Over!

[RayFrost]

I've only finished around 30.

O_O; That's prob. more than our actual IC...I don't understand why you be an SE. You seem more than confident enough in your ability.

my ability to play mafia != my ability to teach newbies / be patient / not get annoyed / etc

[Skill006]

I've only finished around 30.

O_O; That's prob. more than our actual IC...I don't understand why you be an SE. You seem more than confident enough in your ability.

my ability to play mafia != my ability to teach newbies / be patient / not get annoyed / etc

Gotcha. Well, not much action now, and I'm taking the game away from the thread soooo... Good Night, everyone ^_^

[Kison]

Day One: Vote Count

PranaDevil (

2

) : redbox, RayFrost
jmurph3 (

2

) : fuzzylightning, PaltryExcuse
RayFrost (

1

) : PranaDevil
fuzzylightning (

1

) : Skill006

Not Voting (

3

) : , Apathy, jmurph3, kelyn

With

9

alive, it will take

5

votes to lynch.

The day's deadline is currently set to:

February 24th, 2010, 11:59:59 PM, EST

[jmurph3]

Gotcha. Well, not much action now, and I'm taking the game away from the thread soooo... Good Night, everyone ^_^

Same with me. Goodnight all.

[fuzzylightning]

@Skillz: In a newbie game where I am the IC, I tend to have more informative posts to help people understand game mechanics. If I am addressing a person, I like to keep all of my thoughts condensed into one paragraph rather than bulleting them or only giving two lines at a time. That mostly comes down to the fact that I am used to writing essays for my major, so that is a function of my writing style. As such, I don't believe that I have asked the same question to a single player more than once. Every one of my questions helps me to decide whether or not I believe a person to be town or not, and that is how I scumhunt. By getting people to open up about their case, I can see if their case holds water, or if it is just a sinking ship, which also helps me determine how strongly they believe something.

@jmurph: You might be getting frustrated, but my case on you really does come down to you aren't posting enough content, and even now, you still aren't. Counting how many people are voting you isn't going to stop them from voting for you.

@RF: I don't like the fact that you are defending jmurph so much. As with any game, if a certain player has come under suspicion, it is their job to provide reasoning that the suspicion on them is unwarranted by posting a valid defense and showing a considered effort in hunting for the scum. I believe, right now, that you are a townie who is just trying to help a newbie out, but it is his job to defend himself.

@PD and PE: Don't be so quick to jump on a bandwagon. My vote against jmurph was an attempt to get him involved in the game, I want to see everyone posting content, and just agreeing with my case isn't a strong basis for either of your votes, because frankly, my case wasn't all that strong at the time that I made it.

@PD: I don't really see how RF was putting words in your mouth. It is not often good to lynch a townie, and resigning yourself to the belief that you are going to lynch a townie is not a pro-town choice.

I also never said that I thought Apathy was tunneling, I was just asking him to expand his views, it is rather hard to tunnel in one short series of posts where I don't believe there was a response to anything he said in there either.

My vote is staying where it is for now, because jmurph hasn't done anything to convince me that they are useful for the town and I am not getting an overly scummy read from anyone right now, and in my mind, useless town is second preferred lynch to scum, which is not to say that I don't think jmurph is scum.

[RayFrost]

@RF: I don't like the fact that you are defending jmurph so much. As with any game, if a certain player has come under suspicion, it is their job to provide reasoning that the suspicion on them is unwarranted by posting a valid defense and showing a considered effort in hunting for the scum. I believe, right now, that you are a townie who is just trying to help a newbie out, but it is his job to defend himself.

Reading the paragraph below the one you wrote to me, I realize the main purpose of your post. Sorry for white knighting yah, but I found a quick bandwagon based off of something like that was bad/scummy/etc. :/

[RayFrost]

Oh, and jmurph is female, not male.

[PranaDevil]

@PD and PE: Don't be so quick to jump on a bandwagon. My vote against jmurph was an attempt to get him involved in the game, I want to see everyone posting content, and just agreeing with my case isn't a strong basis for either of your votes, because frankly, my case wasn't all that strong at the time that I made it.

@PD: I don't really see how RF was putting words in your mouth. It is not often good to lynch a townie, and resigning yourself to the belief that you are going to lynch a townie is not a pro-town choice.

Except I pointed out why I jumped on the bandwagon, and that was to try and see if it made jmurph say more, and... it didn't.

As for "resigning" myself to the belief of going to lynch a townie, that's blatantly wrong. There's a world of difference between "resigning" yourself to it, and not being scared of trying to put pressure on someone based on the fact they might be town.

Personally, if you're not willing to put some pressure on someone to see what they do, that would be less pro-town than trying to squeeze some information out of them that might be useful.

The information I've gleaned thus far from all this is jmurph keeps her mouth shut when pressured, and she's not really saying much to help the town either. While Ray seems very quick to defend her and force words in someones mouth to try making them seem scummy.

I'm even considering the possibility of the two of them working as our scum team right about now.

[Apathy]

Let me just say:

Vote: RayFrost

Im at work, but as soon as I get 20 minutes to open up word and do my whole analysis, you will see why.

I also have a few other points to bring up regarding the other players, bear with me.

[jmurph3]

Right now, I'd much rather

Vote: jmurph13

. fuzzy's case makes sense right now.

Personally, I feel that for all the fuss Ray made about Prana band-wagoning, no one has said anything about this vote. And I'm not just bringing it up because it's against me. Since saying this, PaltryExcuse has not given any other reasons or, actually, contributed anything at all.

Therefore, I am going to

Vote: PaltryExcuse

.

[jmurph3]

Though I am also very interested to hear Apathy's reasons for voting for Ray.

[Apathy]

Your arguments against RayFrost are interesting and seem fairly logical. Regardless of his role he is getting people to talk which is very important. Though this may get him lynched (if he is a townie) he is still digging up valuable information for the rest of us. If he is mafia... it may get him lynched which helps us out too.

Do you see anything else in the first 4 pages that seems scummy (Possibly something from other players)?[/quote] I think hes doing most of the talking. From what I’ve seen, he hasn’t really dug up anything useful. To me, it seemed more like he was just wildly accusing everyone and trying to swing the votes around on everyone. Creating chaos to keep the eye off of him and his mafia buddy. Regarding your question about other players, I’ll address it right now, then I’ll get on to Ray.

@PranaDevil –

the fact kelyn has stated he's played it a lot elsewhere makes me suspect him

By this logic, why aren’t you attacking Ray or Paltry?

jmurph has been very quiet, perhaps some pressure might push her to talking more.

You don’t think the first 2 votes were pressure enough to make her talk? What if 1 or 2 other people agreed and started voting her? Would you let her die?

@Paltry –

Right now, I'd much rather Vote: jmurph13. fuzzy's case makes sense right now.[/b] I disagree. Why do you think his case makes sense?

Okay, now for the fun!

First, I don’t know what tunneling means and I couldn’t find it in the mafia wiki, but Im assuming its just constantly focusing all your pressure on 1 player. I am going to spread my finger around, don’t worry. Ray has just drawn the most suspicion on himself by having, IMO, the weakest case and scummiest play. Now heres why:

The first bit isn't really WIFOM.... I basically say that I'm doing what I'm doing (vote switching, OMGUSing, etc) to cause what I'm causing (discussion, votes, people taking stances, etc). Not exactly WIFOM in that it's not something where anybody could go "well that's what he'd WANT me to think, when, in truth, he's doing none of this deliberately!" and have it really be following some good reasoning.

This could be taken 1 of 2 ways. Either yes, it was a deliberate tactic in order to bother everyone enough to start responding, in which case you would go with what information you gleaned and start building cases. I haven’t seen a whole lot of this, compared to the fuss you were making earlier. More or less, you seem to be defending yourself and jmurph.
The other way you could read into this (and the way I prefer considering your only around 30 games) is that its merely a product of your erratic play style, and only after it was questioned did you try to justify it. To me, a WIFOM argument is ‘You could just be doing this to make me think you’re doing something else.’ Which is indeed very recursive. This is also something that a person *erhm* could be playing on by taking a mistake they made early on and turning it into ‘No. I meant to do that. Hah!’ which is exactly what you tried to do here, except Im not believing it.

Me saying I'm town doesn't really do anything to convince people that I am. :/ That's a really weak bit of reasoning in that individuals can say they are town all day and night if they so choose. It doesn't guarantee their alignment. At best, it's a tell that's like defensiveness: it requires meta.

I will agree that this would hinge more on me knowing your meta, but just going on gut feeling, it seems that a player who is guilty would want to try and establish his innocence early on. Also, it is a proven psychological phenomenon that when you repeat the same thing to a person enough times and in a subliminal enough way (i.e. tacked onto the end of a separate point) they will (if they don’t take note of the repetition) start to accept it as truth. Maybe I am giving you a lot of credit here, but to tell everyone you’re town so often with so little provocation so early on seems to be a bit of a reach and very scummy.

Bandwagons are good, not bad, so yeah... ummm... either or makes it not a bad thing, soooo... :/

Reminder: You just posted several times harping on Prana for his bandwagon vote, but when you do it, its somehow not a bad thing? Hmm..

I've already covered the defensiveness bit, so you using that against me is still rather pathetic and weak.

First, using personal attacks doesn’t help deter logic. Second, I will agree that with some people defensiveness just comes naturally, however, since I do NOT know your meta at all, it would not be a terrible move to call you out for being defensive, and ask questions about why. So far the best explanation you’ve given is that ‘Defensiveness is not a scumtell.’ Well, not always. But sometimes, yes.

You either get attacked based off of terrible reasoning (why lookie here!)

Subliminally trying to discredit my post. However, town should take note of the fact that you haven’t really countered much of what I’ve said with any real logic, more or less just sloppy 1 line statements and half-baked defensive arguments, which reinforces a lot of my above points.

that seems to me to be an attempt to discredit me without actually putting any real effort into it.

(why lookie here!)

Sorry, I had to

Now the big bit of your post (at least the only really challenging thing you came up with)

You didn't actually answer the question you quoted, so yeah. Ummm... actually do so next time or don't freakin' quote it.

Okay, you’ve got me. Here is my answer:
Posting a lot doesn’t necessarily increase nor decrease your chances of not being caught as a scumbag. It’s the substance that matters. Like I said already, if you were posting many things of substance that even seemed to be drawing out logical conclusions, I would be less inclined to question your erratic behavior, but so far we haven’t really pulled MUCH from your posts, which leads me to believe that your style of posting a lot and shifting blame around is to create an atmosphere of chaos and confusion, thus allowing you to sway opinions more effectively while also keeping the spotlight as far away from you and your partner as possible. This is a common tactic of any good scum (at least the ones I’ve seen).

In this case, you pretty much mindlessly voted with the other two, stated "I agree with them," didn't add anything to the discussion, didn't give your opinions on other things, and you also use what I feel to be language to help you backpedal as need be ("somehwat liking the idea of...").

In case anyone thinks I am reaching a bit far in my analysis above, realize that if you are looking this far into other people’s wording, its not a long jump to say that you are doing the same to your own posts as well, creatively wording them and using subliminal language to strive toward a desired end.

I'm not really putting many words in your mouth, here.

But this sentence in itself admits that you didn’t

kinda

put

some

words in his mouth.

If you are, in fact, a townie, you should not claim cop/doctor, but you shouldn't be claiming at all at this point.

Another contradiction. You are coaching jmurph from a towns perspective, but you have done the exact opposite, claiming town at least 3 times (that I can remember) now.

Saying you are town is about as good a defense as saying "but u guys should trust me because I say so," which isn't very convincing

Earlier..

This time, I'm town, how about you?

but I'm also working towards my win condition (obv, I'm town), so yeh

I feel that things like that will grate on my nerves

my ability to play mafia != my ability to teach newbies / be patient / not get annoyed / etc

Im not sure what you are trying to say with this post, but it seems you have been slightly annoyed at least once or twice already.

Now my last point, which I touched on a bit earlier, is your defense of jmurph. I could read it as just an SE trying to help a new player, but it started way before anyone was even attacking her (page 2):

We don't - carmen sandiego is obv town.

Wasn’t the real Carmen Sandiego always a criminal in the show anyways? Lol could be really ironic.

[Apathy]

Oh darnit I messed up my quotes again. Could you fix the Kelyn quote and also the [/b] after @Paltry is supposed to be [/quote] Thanks!! <33333

[Apathy]

EBWOP:

[quote="Apathy]But this sentence in itself admits that you didn’t kinda put some words in his mouth.[/quote]

replace didnt with did.

[PranaDevil]

@PranaDevil –

the fact kelyn has stated he's played it a lot elsewhere makes me suspect him

By this logic, why aren’t you attacking Ray or Paltry?

jmurph has been very quiet, perhaps some pressure might push her to talking more.

You don’t think the first 2 votes were pressure enough to make her talk? What if 1 or 2 other people agreed and started voting her? Would you let her die?

To the first bit, either you're twisting my words deliberately, or have just missed it.

I meant that he's playing very new, but yet stated he's experienced at playing the game. That makes me curious as to the amount of questions asked and uncertainty from him, as though deliberately playing "new".

I never said that playing lots of games is inherently scummy, otherwise I'd just throw a vote on whichever IC or SE came up first.

Incidentally, I am currently voting Ray.

As for the second bit, unless her response made her seem scummy, I damned sure wouldn't be keeping my vote on her if I saw another jump on there I'd be removing my vote swiftly if there was no actual reason to keep it on there beyond "let's put pressure on her".

But I am very impressed with your information on Ray and his continual switching of opinions and hypocrisy in the game. Amazing bit of researching that only serves to confirm my view that he's scum.

[Skill006]

Whew, the weekend!

@fuzzy: Alrighty, I get your playstyle, it makes sense enough. As for this bit:

As such, I don't believe that I have asked the same question to a single player more than once.

I didn't mean that you were repaeting your questions. You aren't. I just meant that, after asking one question, you would ask another after that one instead of really giving much feedback (although when I take a better look, you are stating your beliefs, sooo..). You explained yourself fine here though:

Every one of my questions helps me to decide whether or not I believe a person to be town or not, and that is how I scumhunt. By getting people to open up about their case, I can see if their case holds water, or if it is just a sinking ship, which also helps me determine how strongly they believe something.

so anyway, I don't know why I placed a vote on you, it was kinda hasty.

unvote

Apathy, I know what you mean about repeating stuff until it gets ingrained, but I think they were jokes that were going to be ignored anyway. Whether our eyes pass over it or not, it probably wouldn't make anyone assume he is town, in fact it turns people against him.
The rest of your case is good. But I don't think Ray is scum.

[PranaDevil]

For the sake of expanding skill, why don't you think Ray is scum? And do you believe anyone else might be, and your reasons why?

[RayFrost]

My comments on "this time I'm town, how 'bout you" and the like were jokes, and taking them out of context is blatant misrepresentation.

It is a misrep in that you are quoting them out of context to make it seem like I said that in all seriousness as a defense/etc from serous accusations, which I didn't.

Not only does that severely weaken your case, but it also makes me prone to Not Like You (tm).

I didn't attack you at all in my post, again, misrepresentation of my statement that your

attacks

were weak. I say nothing about

you

. That's strawmanning my argument via misrep by saying I'm using ad hom when I'm not.

Bandwagoning is fine.

A quick bandwagon that grows from no votes to three votes in less than three pages with virtually no discussion about it or analysis given by those voting is not fine.

There are such things as pressure wagons, which are fine, and bandwagons to lynch, which, assuming good logic, are fine.

The logic behind the bandwagon to lynch on jmurph was terrible (I saw it as a to-lynch, though fuzzy has corrected me on that).

Me saying I'm town was in the joking phase of the game, where I was jovial.

Using my being joking as a scumtell is really bad, unless you are saying I'm serious, in which case you are misrepresenting me AGAIN.

If you want an explanation for my defending, let me show it to you this way...

Bob: U R IS SCUMZ0R!!!!!!11!one! *gives reasoning*

Joe: I R IS NOT SCUMZ0R!!!!11!!21one! *gives reasoning*

This is defending. Fully fine.

Bob: U R IS DEFENSIVE SO U R IS SCUMZ0R!!!112123412!!!ofen1!

Joe: lulfayl, defensiveness is r not scummz0rsy

Joe is correct, Bob is using a bad argument, so Joe is right, Bob is wrong, but Bob continues the attack on this.

My defending myself is to whatever degree I feel is necessary to defend myself.

My defending others when I think they are town isn't scummy.

If I didn't defend a town read, that would actually be something you could call me out on.

On the devil one, I worded that improperly. I didn't put any words in his mouth, though I did go to the logical conclusion of his words as an extension of what I saw in his logic, not what he actually said. He seems to be misunderstanding due to how I said it for me saying he said that

explicitly

when it was, in fact, logically inferred by myself.

the getting reactions point is bad.

Did you even bother checking the meta I deliberately gave you guys? :/

I gave you recently finished me-town and me-scum games for you to analyze for yourselves to make meta arguments if you so chose.

I'm actually aware of very little of my meta beyond the fact reaction fishing is my bread and butter early in the game.

Also note that I have claimed

town

but not

townie

, which are different.

Town is an alignment.

Townie is slang for VT/Vanilla Townie, which is a role.

The difference of a couple letters changes the entire message.

[RayFrost]

Looking back, I don't like how fuzzy had no comments/questions/etc for apathy.

Deliberately leaving a player out of something like that makes me suspicious.

Callin' scum right there.

unvote, vote: fuzzylightning

HAVE AT THEE!

[PranaDevil]

What I've gained from this thus far is that Ray is attacking me and hoping others will follow his lead after getting extremely defensive about jmurph, and while that isn't inherently scummy, it depends, to me, on the player, and also how much information you have on the person.

Example:
Ray is the cop, night 1 he investigates jmurph and it brings back an innocent response. The last thing he then wishes to do is roleclaim cop day 2, he may as well be sticking a bright neon sign above his head saying "mafia aim here" with a huge arrow. So he would do whatever possible to claim her innocence and convince people otherwise in some form.

But we're on day one, we don't know who the cop is... hell, we don't know if we're in a game with just a doctor and no cop, or even if we're in a game with just vanilla townies and the mafia. All we know is that people are all claiming to be town side, so to defend someone to such an extent even after it was pointed out that the entire reason for the bandwagon was "it's a fake bandwagon to see what happens" just sounds like you're desperate to keep her in the game for whatever reason by convincing everyone else she's town, and the only reason I can conclude would be that you already know otherwise. As you wouldn't have been still so defensive on her behalf if you had no clue and knew it was an attempt to get some information out of someone. (Incidentally I feel we did... but it came out of Ray's mouth, not jmurph's).

So that would, in theory, give us a scum team of Ray & jmurph, which I would count as a possible.

The other option is that Ray has been taken the wrong way, and he's made a good point about fuzzy (Who, as an aside, I so want to call "The fuzz", which would be even funnier if he flipped cop based on that), in that the only reason he would leave out a question for apathy would be if he knew he didn't need any information from him.

Which now means we have two potential scum teams:
RayFrost + jmurph3
or
fuzzylightning + apathy.

For my money right now though (not that I'm a gambling man), I'm still thinking Ray's the guy we should be lynching, things haven't added up, and with all his flip flopping about even if he is town, it's not really letting us get a read on him, nor helping us any in finding much information out elsewhere by attacking plays being made to actively start drawing out information.

[RayFrost]

I may or may not be the cop, doc, or a VT. It shouldn't be something you are even speculating about publicly.

Only scum want this information, anyway. To town, it doesn't matter. You do not want to be looking for power roles as town, ever.

I also didn't realize the bandwagon was for reaction fishing (something I do quite often), so I attacked what I thought was a bandwagon to lynch somebody based off of a weak as fook case.

Can you point out how I'm flip flopping in what I'm saying (votes don't count, since I'm a guy that loves to vote switch and use my vote to back up every little thing I do)?

[PranaDevil]

I'm not speculating about whether you're the cop, I'm using an example, until a cop roleclaimed or at least made blatant hints towards the role, I wouldn't even consider guessing who they were. I was using said example to point out why your seemingly desperate bid to defend jmurph looked scummy to me (in that the only way you would know if she was pro-town would be information gleaned on night 1, which we're not even into yet. Or if you are scum. In which case you might be trying to save her to look better yourself, which would still deserve a lynching.)

As for the bandwagon being for reaction fishing, even after I stated rather point blank what it was for, you still were finger me out (ooer) over it. Which to me was saying more than jmurph was by keeping quiet about it.

As for the flip flopping, it's like apathy said, you seem to say one thing and do another, sort of "do as I say, not as I do". But jumping the votes around just seems weird unless you're fishing for information on those people, but there didn't seem to be a great deal of a reason for that throughout much of the game so far.

In saying that, I will admit you picking up on the fuzz's questions was well done (and I hadn't even noticed it, so it's something I do intend to keep an eye on in future), and in the morning I shall go back and look at it closer (namely fuzz's posts I mean), so if indeed it turns out fuzz is mafia, then it would be a safe bet to go for apathy after. (Same, of course, would go if Ray flips mafia, in which case a swarm on jmurph would be a good bet).

For now I'm going to head to bed, get some shut eye, and return in the morning to have a good look over some of fuzz's posts to see if, perhaps, he had already had some interaction with apathy earlier in the thread prior to his questions or not.

[redbox]

Here's the rundown on what I'm thinking:

PaltryExcuse: Talks mostly about the game in general, not our particular game. No read on him.

fuzzylightning: Feel like I'm missing something basic here. fuzzy's posts seem to indicate something to some of the more experienced players but I am not seeing any sort of pattern at all ... nor do I see how he has made any sort of case against jmurph.

jmurph3: Even though I don't get the case fuzzy seems to have made for some of you, the lack of real content in her posts leads me to feel she may have something to hide and doesn't quite know how to go about it. My guess is she is inexperienced scum with a partner advising her not to say too much while the partner takes the heat.

kelyn: Looks to me like his previous experience got him used to being a big fish in a small pond and he is poking around trying to find his place in this new bigger pond ... not really much to go on ... and I am still totally baffled regarding how his question about whether I like to watch movies could possibly lead to anything relevant to the game.

RayFrost (SE): His vote switching and general muckraking lead me to figure he is just poking everything in sight with a stick to see if something crawls out. So far his actions seem to me to be things a scumhunter might do moreso than things scum might do.

Skill006: Obviously infatuated with Ray and his swashbuckling ways, flattering him through imitation ... and likely to be totally blind to any faults he may display. I hope they're on the same side or our little drama could turn out to be a tragedy. She seems much too sincere to be leading a double life.

Apathy: Huh? Possibly related to John von Neumann???

PranaDevil: Sometimes a vote or an accusation on him results in "I don't do OMGUS but OMGUS and I'm voting for you you dirty #@$^% but here's a big song and dance routine to soften the blow" and sometimes he just responds with a flat monotone "It Ain't Me, Babe." That's the one thing that stands out big time to me in this whole game ... the inconsistency of his responses, sometimes lashing out with immediate counteraccusals accompanied by a major cloud of smoke, and sometimes just mildly denying them. I'm gonna stand by my vote for now.

[PranaDevil]

Okay, I'm up, I'm awake, and on looking at fuzzy's posts, he's back off my radar. He hadn't ignored apathy at all, and had earlier asked whether targeting just Ray was a good idea early on and whether looking out others is a good idea (Post 110).

As for Redbox's comments, well you're comparing two totally seperate things now. I've only made one vote which can even be somehow percieved as "OMGUS" and that was on kelyn which I gave solid reasons for. So my responses to other things would depend on whether the content is actually worth responding to, but I've not just gone after someone purely because they went after me. That would achieve nothing D1.

[RayFrost]

Redbox's stuff about skill read scummy to me.

Redbox's stuff about Prana are incorrect.

Redbox's stuff about Apathy is completely worthless.

Redbox's stuff about PE is worthless.

Redbox's stuff about Fuzzy is only somewhat worth noticing.

Redbox's stuff about jmurph is a

direct

implication that I'm jmurphs scumbuddy. Contrast this with his supposed read on me below.

Redbox's stuff about kelyn is also rather worthless.

Redbox's stuff about me is accurate, but his adding the "(SE)" bit to me and not to PE, or an IC bit to fuzzy, seems like he is trying to do an appeal to something that I'm not sure about, but it's caught my eye. His read is that I'm town, yet contrast with the jmurph comments.

Redbox's post in general is a mixture of information over analysis (PE comments, fuzzy comments), fencesitting (kelyn, fuzzy, PE), and worthless jibber jabber that doesn't say a thing about his stances (apathy, skill).

then there's the case on prana, which is misrepresentation of the stances that PD has actually taken through the game.

Misrepresentation is scummy.

IIoA is scummy.

Fencesitting is scummy.

Worthless jibber jabber meant to avoid giving stances on people is scummy.

Redbox is scummy.

unvote, vote: redbox