Teleportation Mafia Universe TWO (TOWN WINS)

[Jack]

Day 1 Vote Count

animorpherv1 ( 0 )
Anon ( 0 )
DeathRowKitty ( 1 ) Lowell
DocPotter ( 6 ) Ellibereth Nicodemus fhqwhads Maelyn Jahudo animorpherv1
Starbuck ( 0 )
Ellibereth ( 1 ) Anon
Elmo ( 1 ) Jack
fhqwhads ( 0 )
Jack ( 4 ) Elmo Starbuck DocPotter VP Baltar
Jahudo ( 0 )
VP Baltar ( 0 )
Kise ( 0 )
Lowell ( 0 )
Maelyn ( 0 )
Nicodemus ( 0 )
Not Voting ( 2 ) Kise DeathRowKitty
Total ( 15 )

With 15 alive, 8 needed to lynch.
Deadline: 2/8 11am EST

So you're saying your initial vote was to provide social commentary on the state of the game at that point?

Making arguments does not necessarily mean you are being convincing. Rolling your eyes even less so.

[Jahudo]

It looks like other people's reasons for being on Doc's wagon are:

Ellibereth - scumhunting in OU and strategy talk without scumhunting in this universe.
Nicodemus - Doc's posts feel forced, like he's trying too hard to be town. backtracking.
fhqwhads - scumhunting in OU and backtracking.
Maelyn (or 1/2 of Maelyn at least) - some combination of meta, scumhunting in OU, and backtracking.
animorpherv1 - no reason other than it has the most votes.

I like Elli's reasoning and think his aggressive pushing of the wagon is too overt to be scummy. Nico brought up original thoughts, although he hasn't said whether Doc has continued to act this way since he placed his vote. The other three could be hops because they don't add anything that Elli hasn't been promoting. Based on all of day 1, Maelyn and ani's hops are normal because they aren't the active scumhunting types.

This wagon doesn't bother me. Vote stays.

[VP Baltar]

*sigh*

Jahudo, you should look at Ellibereth in iso. He has done ZERO scumhunting in this game. He even said so himself, if you'll recall. He said he couldn't get a grasp on it. Then he active lurked. A lot. Then he joined in on the scumhunting in the other universe.

Nico's vote post doesn't have any real reason to believe Doc to be scum. The only time he mentions him is when he says that Doc's strategy is stupid. While I agree it wasn't a viable strategy, to arrive at the conclusion that he is mafia " trying to earn town points by suggesting strategies" is pretty much a huge leap in logic that there is no evidence for. Do you, Jahudo, really think that Doc is "trying to hard to look town" this game? If he was, then he's doing a terrible job of it.

I think you are reaching to make fhq's vote sound better than it was. Here it is:

vote: DocPotter bandwagon ftw!

wow, way to piggy back off of what other people said already and then just slide onto the leading bandwagon.

Maelyn's vote is garbage. They've done zero scumhunting this game and they're a frakking hydra. More piggybacking and sliding onto the leading wagon.

ani - well that speaks for itself.

So there you have it. I think you're giving far too much credit to some of these folks for a really weak wagon. You single point is the only one against Doc that I think is legitimate and it's not nearly enough to make me want to lynch him over Jack, who has been bleeding scum juice out of his eyes all game.

I'm still petitioning for the mass switch by the end of the day today.

[Jack]

So you're saying your initial vote was to provide social commentary on the state of the game at that point?

VP, I'd like to apologize for being a bit insulting towards you in that post. I was just annoyed at having the same accusation brought up for the 4th time.

To answer your question: no, I was not providing social commentary on the state of the game at that point.

Let's take an example. Person A says:

Person B, you are mafia because you have switched your vote around a lot.

Person B can respond like this:

You're implying that I was hopping from wagon to wagon because I didn't really believe in any of them, and that that indicaties that I am scum just trying to get anyone lynched. Although you don't actually say why you think it is scummy, you just make the statement.

As a matter of fact I switched my vote in ISO 5 because blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.

I switched my vote in ISO 8 because blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.

I switched my vote in ISO 15 because blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.

Additionally if you check my meta, I often change my vote around day 1 as town, here are the links to example games for your convenience:

link 1
link 2
link 3

And no, I don't mind spending half an hour defending myself on page four vs a meaningless accusation, and don't think people will find this lengthy post overdefensive, I actually enjoy doing all your work for you.

Or person B could say:

Who's to say you aren't mafia since you've been switching your vote around?

This makes the point that the reasoning A is using applies just as well to A, and that he would need to flesh out his reasoning to make the vote legitimate.


********

You might argue that I wasn't doing that in my vote on Kai. But I plainly argued that I did in the previous post, and in many other previous posts.

You could say I shouldn't have voted him, but given the context (shown by the other quotes I posted) it makes sense. It was not a serious voting phase. People were not trying to lynch other people.

I think that deals with the "voted kai" part of the accusation (it should have been dealt with by ISO 18, but that's water under the bridge now).

The other part was the claim about the panicked reaction to Kai's breaking strategy. The "voted kai" seems to be the major supporter of that theory, but one could possibly cite my other posts, namely ISO 2,3, and 4, where I comment that:

1) teleporters claiming to be pulled and then killed doesn't sound like fun. Several other people made this comment.
2) Using the push as a vig could kick mafia out of our universe. Several other people made this comment.
3) If the mafia mix, we have the potential of cross kills (and we do, in the scenario that we swap mafia and the other townie universe wins). Several other people made this comment as well.

So, what part of those posts indicate panic, and what part of the other peoples posts don't? Note that you still deal with the difficulty I pointed out to Kai, namely that without showing a significant advantage from one plan to the other (if you did you would have to argue that we actually adopt that plan, which we haven't currently) your argument is going to be inherently weak. Because instead of saying "Jack is arguing against a much better plan because he's mafia" you have to say "Jack thinks kai's plan is much better (as evidenced by such and such posts) but is arguing for his plan which he thinks is worse, because he is mafia".

[Elmo]

No, they weren't ambiguous. They clearly stated that the mafia teams were opposed to each other. I quoted that bit in my post. So the knee jerk reaction is to a plan that doesn't take into account basic features of the game. Why would a townie not have a knee jerk reaction to that?

Because it did. He knew that, and he probably took into account the

very small

chance they would crosskill each other, like I explained to you.

That all sounds like a lame plan that wouldn't be fun. Besides, the mafia groups are enemies yes? So it sounds like we'd want to mix them. And if we teleport the last mafioso from this universe then we win.

Letting the teleporter decide for themselves actually gives the mafia some motivation to eliminate the people who suspect them, unless they want to be transported...

Like, as opposed to... being lynched? Also: given the tiny odds that any one particular person is the teleporter? Seriously?

No, it's not the best plan:

At night, your team may choose to shoot one person. You may shoot someone

in any universe that your team has a player alive in.

Win condition: You win when your team wins in EITHER universe you are in. You win a universe when you have

eliminated all other mafia team members

We want to transfer one of our mafiosos to the other universe, and have them transfer one of theirs to ours. That potentially results in mafia killing other mafia, especially since the ultimate goal is to win in both universes

Those are just horrible reasons not to go with Kai's plan. The mafia are highly unlikely to crosskill at all, and even if they did, it doesn't particularly help

us

if they crosskill in the other universe, as long as they're gone from this one. You can't just say "if you don't agree with me, you don't understand the setup" and expect people not to call bullshit, because it is; your stated reasons for going against Kai's plan at that point were terrible. When someone gives terrible, unnatural reasons for arguing against a plan, the logical conclusion is that

they're looking for ways to argue against it

rather than genuinely disagreeing. I cannot believe you, as town, would not take two minutes to think about e.g. how likely a crosskill actually is and therefore subsequently use that as a supporting reason for your very vocal stance against Kai's plan. You also tried to manipulate the other universe into not going along with Kai's plan, forcing us to do the same - a townie has absolutely no business doing that, ever.

If I catch you pouring a bottle labelled "poison" into my coffee, it doesn't matter if I actually happen to keep milk in there, right?

It's your intent that's important.

But it does if

I

keep milk in there. Because then my intent is to pour milk. You would still have to show that my plan was bad, the plan that everyone else currently agrees we should do.

No, I emphatically do

not

have to show that. All I have to show, which I repeatedly have done, is that your immediate reaction as scum would probably have been to oppose it in the way you did. The entire point is that you find the bottle and don't know what's inside, as was perfectly obvious from what I said. If you

think

it's poison, you're trying to harm me, regardless of what the actual outcome is. For example, in the post-game here, Goatrevolt (mafia) says "ironically, the plan I originally proposed, which involved everyone claiming their color on day 1 would have worked out best for the town". Scum sometimes do things that are genuinely pro-town because they intend to hurt the town; it's intent that you have to judge. I don't think, at the time you argued against it, that you could have fully understood the consequences of following the plan as stated - certainly you didn't know precisely how the teleporter worked since that was left ambiguous by the mod, and we only discovered that later. So however you slice it, if you did argue for what was pro-town, you very definitely did not to it based on an accurate view of reality, and hence it's ridiculous to base it on the outcome alone, whatever that is. All that is left is your likely intentions in doing so, and I've said why they're scummy.

oh and Jack's vote on obv. town Nicodemus was redonkulous.

This, in fact his voting record overall is fairly terrible:

81 - vote: Kise - Random (?)
96 - vote: Kairyuu - Kai's plan
170 - vote: DocPotter - "Gut"
196 - vote: Nicodemus - No stated reason
217 - vote: fhqwhgads - A contradiction that wasn't
222 (my attack here)
260 - vote: Nicodemus - No stated reason
279 - vote: Doc Potter - No stated reason
305 - vote: DeathRowKitty - I agree with Lowell!
331 - vote: Elmo - Your case on me is bad, OMGUS!

Aside from the OMGUS vote, I can only find one place, the vote on fhqwhgads - which was retracted immediately after fhq replies - where he's actually given original reasoning.

You pulled a U-turn between post 96 and 156 - you very clearly switch from attacking him to going "oh, I'm not really attacking him". I think you freaked out slightly, then realised your stance wasn't credible.

This shows you are skimming. Why do you ask people to comment on me when you haven't read my posts myself? Check my ISO 18 and 23. Check ISO 10-13 and see if it looks like I'm arguing that Kai is mafia.

Are you seriously saying "my posts mean whatever I tell you regardless of what I actually wrote, and if you disagree you aren't reading properly"!? Look:

Unvote,Vote:Kairyuu - Who's to say you weren't scum proposing a sub optimal plan? It'd be nice not to be transported over to the other universe and killed by chance wouldn't it?

That wasn't paranoia. When people vote using reasoning that could just as easily apply to themselves I often oblige them.

That is, accusing him of hypocrisy;

Kairyuu says mafia want to promote a poor plan, so I am mafia. I say by that logic, since his plan isn't good, he must be mafia.

Look. It's an attack. You're attacking Kairyuu. You are trying to discredit him and undermine his plan. It's an attack. There's no other word for it unless you want to consult an thesaurus for symonyms for "attack". You cannot be serious. This is driving me UP THE WALL because people seem to be buying it and it's so obviously not true. If you don't think someone's scum, why vote them and suggest they're scum? Just

why

?

Jack. I don't get your reason or your vote. Why skip the largest wagon close to deadline. Especially with a VT claim. Why skip the (current) second most likely wagon to go before the deadline?

This; it's because he doesn't seriously want to lynch me, he's only voting me because he wants to counter-attack and call me scummy. It's pretty bizarre for a townie to be voting me at this point; it's convenient as scum, since if he gets lynched, he only attacks someone who's probably not scum with him anyway. If he tried to drive a wagon on someone else, that would make them look town if he got lynched.

Seriously, Jack has "the play" pretty much tattooed on his forehead. I'm not sure how many different ways I'm supposed to say it before I even get a murmured comment on him from most of the game. I'm not a cheerleader for DocPotter's play (I haven't read the meta fwiw), but Jack is just so much better. Let's gooo.

[Maelyn]

I just noticed. Elmo is attacking Jack,

making a huge wall of death on him, without voting for him

. Good job~

Hey, VP Baltar. What is the case on Jack again?

I'm still keeping my vote on DP, for now, until he redeems himself.

Love,
Mae

[VP Baltar]

Hey maelyn, Elmo has been voting Jack for quite some time.

Also, I've stated the case on him several times. Try reading the thread.

What exactly are you looking for DP to do to "redeem" himself? We need to be lynching soon (preferably today) so we can pull DGB from Universe 1, so it's time for you two to stop stalling and actually get involved in this game.

[Maemuki]

Hey maelyn, Elmo has been voting Jack for quite some time.

Also, I've stated the case on him several times. Try reading the thread.

What exactly are you looking for DP to do to "redeem" himself? We need to be lynching soon (preferably today) so we can pull DGB from Universe 1, so it's time for you two to stop stalling and actually get involved in this game.

Goddammit I'm blind today, sorry about that.

Oh, yes Mr. Pro-Town. I know that.

Eeeh, just for him to do something pro-town , really.

(/waits for "buthevotedforjack" response)

Love,
Mae

[Maelyn]

/sigh

I'm too used to posting on my own account...

[Jack]

Because it did. He knew that, and he probably took into account the very small chance they would crosskill each other, like I explained to you.

I apparently don't know how to read. It's 2 teleports for 1 pull. I was also under the impression that the scumteam was a joint team with a kill per universe,

He took into account the possibility that the scum would crosskill when he thought the were a joint team?

Those are just horrible reasons not to go with Kai's plan. The mafia are highly unlikely to crosskill at all, and even if they did, it doesn't particularly help us if they crosskill in the other universe, as long as they're gone from this one. You can't just say "if you don't agree with me, you don't understand the setup" and expect people not to call bullshit, because it is; your stated reasons for going against Kai's plan at that point were terrible. When someone gives terrible, unnatural reasons for arguing against a plan, the logical conclusion is that they're looking for ways to argue against it rather than genuinely disagreeing. I cannot believe you, as town, would not take two minutes to think about e.g. how likely a crosskill actually is and therefore subsequently use that as a supporting reason for your very vocal stance against Kai's plan. You also tried to manipulate the other universe into not going along with Kai's plan, forcing us to do the same - a townie has absolutely no business doing that, ever.

This is what you said at the time:

Actually, the

best way to use the teleport is probably as a directed vig.

That is, use it as a second lynch. The teleporter should probably just push out whoever gets the second highest number of votes when we lynch, or something. I'm not sure what we do about pulling.

I think Jack's point is quite interesting.

While there's 3 of a mafia group alive, they'd probably kill in the universe where they had 2 members if they were split (unless they thought they'd be teleported out soon). If there were only two mafia alive, though, they might switch if they had better chances over there. So if we either teleported one and lynched one, or teleported two, we might not get a nightkill here, which would be a big win. That's if the other town don't send us any wee beasties, of course.

Also it's Teleportation Mafia. I kind of signed up for some teleportation antics :V

You say the best way to use the teleporter is as a directed vig. I wanted to use the teleporter as a directed vig, kai didn't.

If we swap mafia, and one of the universes wins before the other, one, then the mafia from the closed universe will have to kill here. That equals potential crosskills. If we have 5 alive, and 1 of each mafia, isn't that better than 5 alive, 2 of our mafia? Tell me it isn't.


**************

Elmo, why did you respond to my initial questions with claims that have been answered exhaustively in two giant posts? You just skipped them. Because you are faking it. Just like you didn't check up on what you said about the strategy originally.

[VP Baltar]

@Jack- I appreciate you saying sorry, but don't worry about it. I've been called far worse for far less.

I understand what you are saying with your Person A and B examples, but I don't think it's applicable here, nor do I think those are the only two possible responses to an accusation.

Obviously I still disagree with you over your vote Kai thing, and Elmo is mostly right about your overall voting record, which is quite strange.

I really don't understand your vote on Elmo beyond OMGUS, which seems to be a recurring trend for you this game. Do you really think he's scum or you just disagree with his case on you?

As far as your reasons for disagreeing with Kai's plan:

1) I don't care if it sounds fun or not. If it helps the town win, then it's the best course of action.
2) the vig push plan is nowhere near as guaranteed as Kai's plan since we would have no clue if we were successful or not until the pushed player was killed.
3) no matter how much you repeat this, it's still highly unlikely that the mafia would crosskill and it is certainly not something that I would want to bank on.

As far as implementing Kai's plan, if I'm not mistaken a wrench has been thrown in that potentially by needing to Pull DGB today, but we have time to work that out later. Right now we need to be lynching either Jack or DP. In terms of an actual case being made for one or other of these people, I think it is clear who the choice needs to be.

[Jack]

Obviously I still disagree with you over your vote Kai thing, and Elmo is mostly right about your overall voting record, which is quite strange.

My voting record is nothing exemplary, but neither is anyone's. His voting record is "Vote:Jack" for example. And him singling out my record is just shows that he isn't interested in hunting for mafia.

I really don't understand your vote on Elmo beyond OMGUS, which seems to be a recurring trend for you this game. Do you really think he's scum or you just disagree with his case on you?

It isn't OMGUS, since I didn't vote him when he initially made the case. I only voted him when I reread the first couple days, and noticed how scummy he would have to be to call me out on disagreeing with kai's plan when he was on my side of the argument. I noticed that he'd been lurking like mad too.

Basically he's following a playstyle that some people adopt. You lurk, but when you do post you make them big posts, so it seems like you are contributing. I checked a game where he was scum (the bottom one on his wiki page) and he posted like this and afterwards said it wasn't his pro town meta to post that way.

I don't feel he is building his case in an honest way. He contradicts his earlier opinion, and shows more care for rhetoric and making the case sound good than in exploring the possibilities, even to the point of skipping the two big posts I made explaining exactly the part that he is saying "Just

why

?" about in his accusation.

1) I don't care if it sounds fun or not. If it helps the town win, then it's the best course of action.
2) the vig push plan is nowhere near as guaranteed as Kai's plan since we would have no clue if we were successful or not until the pushed player was killed.
3) no matter how much you repeat this, it's still highly unlikely that the mafia would crosskill and it is certainly not something that I would want to bank on.

1) We can agree to disagree here. I play to have fun, winning is usually whats fun, but not the primary. Elmo wanted some "teleportation antics" too as he said.
2) Lynching isn't anywhere near guaranteed. His plan has limited usefulness.
3) It's unlikely that the cleared innocent is someone we want to lynch. One universe will probably close before the other, don't you think? And if it did, and we had mixed scum, they could kill each other (and would have to to win).

[VP Baltar]

Hey maelyn, Elmo has been voting Jack for quite some time.

Also, I've stated the case on him several times. Try reading the thread.

What exactly are you looking for DP to do to "redeem" himself? We need to be lynching soon (preferably today) so we can pull DGB from Universe 1, so it's time for you two to stop stalling and actually get involved in this game.

Goddammit I'm blind today, sorry about that.

Oh, yes Mr. Pro-Town. I know that.

Eeeh, just for him to do something pro-town , really.

(/waits for "buthevotedforjack" response)

Love,
Mae

Well I'm not trying to be a jerk about it, but it was a very long exchange with Jack and I don't think should have repeat it when it's right there in the past two pages or so.

I would like your opinion on it, however. What do you think of Jack? Are you willing to vote him today? Do you think Doc has been scummy or just anti-town today?

[Lowell]

unvote, vote doc

. We should try to beat the deadline if at all possible. Doc isn't a bad lynch.

Two people I think are more scummy than doc: DRK and elmo. Something about elmo's recent posts rubs me the wrong way. We'll deal with it tomorrow.

[Jack]

Dear Denizens of Universe 2,

Your stalling worthy lynches is not viewed favorably. DocPotter is keeping a low profile. Get the job gone. You need to lynch, teleport me, AND we have to lynch ABR here. The deadline is really really tight.

Get the job done ASAP,

Dripping "I'm on my way" Goofball

Vote for Elmo instead of me when you get here.

unvote, vote:Doc

[VP Baltar]

well, I guess you live to fight another day Jack. At least DGB will be here tomorrow. DEATH misses his bride.

[zorastermod]

Day 1 Vote Count

animorpherv1 ( 0 )
Anon ( 0 )
DeathRowKitty ( 0 )

DocPotter ( 8 ) Ellibereth Nicodemus fhqwhads Maelyn Jahudo animorpherv1 Lowell Jack

Starbuck ( 0 )
Ellibereth ( 1 ) Anon
Elmo ( 0 )
fhqwhads ( 0 )
Jack ( 4 ) Elmo Starbuck DocPotter VP Baltar
Jahudo ( 0 )
VP Baltar ( 0 )
Kise ( 0 )
Lowell ( 0 )
Maelyn ( 0 )
Nicodemus ( 0 )
Not Voting ( 2 ) Kise DeathRowKitty
Total ( 15 )

DocPotter the Town (2) Townie was lynched

It is now night. Night ends at 18:54 EST on Monday, Feb 8th.

All actions must be submitted by this point or they will be counted as "no action."

[zorastermod]

Night 1 has ended.

Jahudo the Town (2) Townie was killed

Ellibereth has exited this universe

Day 2 Begins now. In order to keep things simple, I'll round the deadlines (but keep roughly the same distance between the two times):

The Deadline is February 22nd at 19:00 EST.

[VP Baltar]

Sigh.

Vote:jack

[zorastermod]

Plum has entered this universe

[VP Baltar]

I want the other mason to claim and dump any discussion you had.

[DeathRowKitty]

No. Other mason shouldn't claim. Last thing we need is a potentially confirmed townie dying too early, especially with the great decisions we can clearly expect from our teleporters this game.

[VP Baltar]

Actually, yeah, I want to with draw that. We can wait a couple days to maximize our lynch potential, though role is useless now.


Also, let's not talk about the teleporter's choice anymore since it's only going to help scum better figure out who to kill.

I'd like to hear from everyone on the Doc Potter wagon yesterday now that he's flipped town.

[Plum]

All right, everyone. I'm new here and to help me adjust, could everyone put down their top 2-3 suspects, preferably in order, with an explanation of a sentence or less for each? Thanks.

[VP Baltar]

Read the thread. it's short.