Newbie 906 - Game Over!

[RayFrost]

I don't believe you should be publicly pointing out scumteams when you don't have any scum flipped yet. Unless you are trying to stir discussion with it.

This is due to the fact you have no confirmed scum to make the connections with.

It also gives scum more information about your thoughts on links, which would allow them to further change their NK targets. That said, town would have very little information from speculated scumteams without scum flipping.

[PranaDevil]

Oh I agree PE, in fact, looking back on it, my reasons for considering you scum were based purely on Ray, and the assumption you wanted to stretch it the full 3 weeks. So the fact that you didn't mean that long, just enough time to get some reads on all players and see where people's stances were, then in that case, I don't feel you're scum. Not saying you aren't scum, just that issue shouldn't be counted in my eyes unless you do something else scummy, but that bit's obvious in regards to everyone.

Onto Ray's post towards the box (Though first off, if I hadn't pointed out previous posts you'd made, how could I have actually made note of what I was referencing?)

I have to be honest, Ray brings up plenty of good points about box. The issue about not using obscure references I think is more there to teach him rather than label him scum admittedly, but the last two paragraphs are... well now they're pointed out, rather strange, it IS a lot of maybes, when in actuality stating what was meant would have helped town a lot more, as it is, it continues leaving it open for debate.

In fact... it leaves it open for debate enough to continue getting Ray lynched, as though seeing Ray was basically up against the wall, and I was refusing to back down (as was jmurph, and it would appear apathy) it meant something like that could well go flying below the radar. Whereas if you had been blunt and said exactly who you meant, it would at least make some sense, rather than sitting on the fence.

Plus the issue with PE was somewhat following my lead, as opposed to looking at things seperately, that in itself I wouldn't necessarily class as a scum tell on it's own, as he could just be seeing me making good points and agreeing, but it does read strange in hindsight.

[jammer]

@RF
I don't know how often you called yourself town, but I just recall you did a few times.
~After looking back the times you called yourself town, I think I might included some posts where you said me-town when you where meta referering. Idd, you didn't use town as often as I had in mind. I did not see that as a big tell anyway. But I scrap this.

Any case, about you getting serious late in the game.

I don't suspect you for getting serious when pressure is applied. I think you still where joking around when slowly votes where piling on you.
I do suspect you because you kept joking and extending the random voting stage. imo, that's pretty scummy.

Me giving a analysis on all other players.
My read is simply neutral/less info at this point.
I'll let you know, when I notice something.

I wonder why you want especially me to give a read on all players, is it me calling most players neutral?

[RayFrost]

I have a problem with calling a vast majority of the players "neutral" without really giving any analysis of the individuals.

I feel the blanket statement gives a stance while keeping the stance as

very

easy to change.

My joking extends however long I want it to! *points finger at the cat threateningly* Now put 'em up!1!

I'm not sure how you believe I "extended the random voting stage" as contrasted with "kept joking past the RVS." I don't feel that continuing to joke indicates stretching the RVS past where it would go naturally. Could you give some examples of this?

@ Prana...

My issue is less that he's done it once, but rather that he's consistently followed you.

He voted me after I voted him and when you were pushing hardest on me.

He attacked me by following you, and has kept doing so.

He goes from "town read" to "Scum read" as you up the heat on me and jmurph votes me (opportunism) without giving original reasoning there.

My issue is also not with the lack of original reasoning and following you so much as not just saying he agrees.

He puts it forth as if he isn't just lamely agreeing with your points.

[PranaDevil]

I'm not sure if jmurph has been opportunistic in the voting of you, although it is a possibility, but red's does indeed come across rather strange, I'm still not certain if he might be scum or not, but it is a possibility.

[PaltryExcuse]

Is the case on RayFrost that:
A) He's overdefensive
B) He protected jmurph to some degree
C) He called himself town a few times
D) (Most recently) He had a couple of frustration posts about wanting to get lynched and hammerer is scum.

If so, I can't get behind that case. Am I missing something?

[PranaDevil]

It wasn't that he "protected jmurph", it was that he continued pushing something after I pointed out that it was a non-issue, (namely the wagon) deliberately trying to force things in that direction at that point. This was not long after stating that wagons are good to draw information out of people no less, hence using it to do so, was apparently bad suddenly?

Ray put words in my mouth regarding stating I was trying to out power roles, when it was quite obvious I hadn't done so.

He also wasn't overdefensive in just defending himself, he was defensive in attempting to fire blame where there was none, I called him on points, he failed to actually defend them, kept arguing them, and also with his frustration posts accused me of not reading his posts, while at the same time as much as admitting he hadn't read mine.

Personally I think the Ray case is rather strong (Trying to say someone else has said something they haven't and hope others don't notice is rather scummy, especially when you then don't back down after something clear as day has been pointed out).

There are other people to consider (for one thing, there's 2 mafia to consider regardless), but if I had a hat, I would eat it if Ray turns up to be anything other than scum.

[PaltryExcuse]

It wasn't that he "protected jmurph", it was that he continued pushing something after I pointed out that it was a non-issue, (namely the wagon) deliberately trying to force things in that direction at that point. This was not long after stating that wagons are good to draw information out of people no less, hence using it to do so, was apparently bad suddenly?

True enough. I think wagons are good for the most part universally, as even 'bad' wagons or ill-informed ones provide information. (As I said, I've picked off a scum in a 'bad' wagon.) I think Ray had a point in that the wagon gathered steam rather quickly though.

Ray put words in my mouth regarding stating I was trying to out power roles, when it was quite obvious I hadn't done so.

He also wasn't overdefensive in just defending himself, he was defensive in attempting to fire blame where there was none, I called him on points, he failed to actually defend them, kept arguing them, and also with his frustration posts accused me of not reading his posts, while at the same time as much as admitting he hadn't read mine.

Personally I think the Ray case is rather strong (Trying to say someone else has said something they haven't and hope others don't notice is rather scummy, especially when you then don't back down after something clear as day has been pointed out).

There are other people to consider (for one thing, there's 2 mafia to consider regardless), but if I had a hat, I would eat it if Ray turns up to be anything other than scum.

I disagree about the strength of the case. It seems to require intimate knowledge of Ray's play (rating his defensiveness) and also I think many times you and him read the other's posts with a sense of the other is scum. That clouds your vision, even if you may be right.

As things stand, you won't see my name voting for RayFrost any time soon.

However,

You seem to be saying that I'm going "oh noes, wtf do I do, I'm being found scummy!!!112gfdar!" when only two people, yourself and apathy, have done so while others have stated quite clearly they think I'm town.

More people have stated a town read of me than have stated a scum read of me.

Who has said this beyond Skill?

[PaltryExcuse]

About Skill006:
She has attacked 2 people in this game: RayFrost and fuzzy.
Her vote on RayFrost was accusing him of rolefishing.
Next she lowers our expectations of her when she answers kelyn's question of whether or not she considers herself a good scumhunter. This is fine, but I have no idea why she re-affirms this when RayFrost comments on it.
What surprises me is she then flips to an accusation against fuzzy. There is no comment on Ray's defense, or even a continuation of the idea. It makes me question whether the initial charges were backed up by evidence. Her charges on fuzzy are just as easily dropped. One post by fuzzy causes her to drop suspicion and wonder why she placed a vote on him in the first place.

I don't know why I placed a vote on you, it was kinda hasty.

What accusations that you have made do you have any faith in?
Afterwards she does show why continuing convesation is a good thing, which I agree with. However, I have no idea where her thoughts lie at all. She's staying in the background and not really getting in there and attacking anyone.
I know she thinks Ray is town, but I'm not sure as to why either.

Really, upon an ISO, she's deserving of my vote.

Vote: Skill006

[Skill006]

Ok, about RayFrost, like I said: I was just making up a random vote, and only partly believed my case. It was still during the RVS, so I didn't consider it to be an "actual case," if you will.

The thing with fuzzy: The vote on fuzzy was because I had nothing else, and I don't like to be not voting for anyone (even though I have been for the majority of this game). I did like my case on him, but it was weak and I realized that when he explained it to me. I'm not a very offensive person, so my cases are usually trash. But when I noticed he was only posting game theory posts and asking oodles of questions without much input of his own, I posted my opinion about it and THEN realized the motive behind it. After his post I realized I should've waited for his reaction/response and then put a vote, but yeah.

However, on this note:

What accusations that you have made do you have any faith in?

He hasn't responded to me pointing out his confusion. (to go over the case again for those who forgot, he said that I accused him of him repeating questions, and I tried to clear up that he has been asking questions even after he got answers) Other than that... Guess he cleared up all of my initial suspicions. Oh, and don't get me wrong-there is nothing wrong with asking questions as a form of scumhunting. In fact, I think it's one of the better ways to scumhunt. @ the time, though, I felt all he was doing was asking questions while not inputting anything of his own or giving feedback to the answers.

I know she thinks Ray is town, but I'm not sure as to why either.

mmmm...not so much that I think he's town, I just don't think he's scummy for the reasoning put against him. I'd rather focus my attention on other people right now, tbh.

As for this bit:

However, I have no idea where her thoughts lie at all.

I am most suspicious of apathy (until he responds) and redbox

redbox because he was easily able to slip under prana and jmurph's skin. Prana and jmurph are two of the more active players (or were the more active ones while he was around), so if he just nodded and agreed w/ them there wouldn't be as much heat on him. Plus, he would get to put someone at l-1.

Ok, that'll do for now. I may not be around tomorrow, so go town! And please don't hammer anybody recklessly, it chops town up.

[PranaDevil]

Erm, PE, I'm surprised you prefer the vote on Skill, in preference to one on Ray considering your reasons for not voting Ray.

Skill's vote on Ray was, I'm pretty sure, still essentially in RVS, so not wholely serious, the scumhunting bit was just in the jokey phase anyway and I saw no bearing on anything in game to be honest.

The one on fuzzy was still early game, and so she wasn't set on it, I see no issue there.

I will agree she's somewhat staying in the background, but that could be said for a few people over the weekend (fuzzy for one of them).

Why she thinks Ray's town though, I have no idea, she's not actually given a reason for actually believing him, just that she does, although she has said she didn't like his discrediting of my arguments. Although if she's scum that could just be trying to keep heat on him while trying to defend him and appear pro-town.

But I don't see how what is essentially nothing more important than "she's defending Ray and not giving a reason" is a good reason to lynch.

I would like Skill to answer what she actually feels of Ray, is he seeming scummy or town? As it is that's the one thing I'm unsure of from Skill, she appears to be protecting Ray by backing him up, only to then say his discrediting of my issues she doesn't like, but then doesn't go in any deeper. Why don't you like it? What specifically did you feel was wrong, and does it make him scummy in your eyes?

[Skill006]

don't like how my post ended up in front of yours. looks out of order. -.-;

Well, since I have been granted a few minutes, I'll explain my read on Ray.

I don't think he is scum based off of given reasons. (by mainly prana, might I add). That doesn't mean I think he is town (if I said that, sorry, I didn't mean it. At this point, no one is really town to me except myself)

His dicrediting of prana's points is something he did in the last game (where he was mafia) when he wanted to defend himself, and at the same time, try and make the voter seem like he doesn't know what he is doing. It kinda makes him look scummy, but all things considered, he could just be frustrated. Still, I don't like how some of his defenses are more of "your point stinks" rather than an adequate defense.

[Skill006]

Oh, and I really don't know what my read on him is. I could believe he is scum, but I could see how he is town, too. He has town-motivated actions, but he goes about it in a scummy way.

[Kison]

Day One: Vote Count

RayFrost (

3

) : Apathy, jmurph3, redbox
jmurph3 (

1

) : fuzzylightning
redbox (

1

) : RayFrost
Skill006 (

1

) : PaltryExcuse

Not Voting (

3

) : jammer, Skill006, PranaDevil

With

9

alive, it will take

5

votes to lynch.

The day's deadline is currently set to:

February 24th, 2010, 11:59:59 PM, EST

[Skill006]

Hmm, I still have some time. Ok, just to show that I'm not absolutely opposed to questions (as my attack on fuzzy may have implied), I will ask some questions.

First, I will ask myself a couple questions (it's only polite):
What is your opinion on the argument going back and forth between Ray and Prana? (as well as a bit of jmurph and redbox, can't forget them)

Skill: Well, for one thing, I would like to point out that the debate over this:

jmurph3: Even though I don't get the case fuzzy seems to have made for some of you, the lack of real content in her posts leads me to feel she may have something to hide and doesn't quite know how to go about it. My guess is she is inexperienced scum with a partner advising her not to say too much while the partner takes the heat.

is just plain silly, and somebody was taking it out as far as they could. There was one misunderstanding:

Redbox's stuff about jmurph is a direct implication that I'm jmurphs scumbuddy. Contrast this with his supposed read on me below.

and then a whole bunch of pointless arguing over that. Or call it misreprsentation, whatever. I still think it was a weak case. And it was one of redbox's only reasons for voting Ray.

Um, I don't have as much time as I thought I did, so that'll be it on that for now, if anyone's curious to hear more (which I somehow doubt) I will gladly state everything else. For now, quick questions:

@prana: if ray flips town tomorrow, where will you go?

@jmurph, redbox, and apathy: do you have any other suspicions other than ray?

Ok, i'm increative, so I can't think of anymore questions but i will be back in a couple of days to ask more, this time i really have to go.

[PranaDevil]

Actually Skill, that debate over that issue was part of it, sure, but not all of it. I also would point out that the debate raged because Ray took it as meaning him, when there was no indication of that whatsoever.

What I would like to point out, that has gone unnoticed, is that redbox answered the question about that... but somehow thought that the question was "who do you think is Prana's scum buddy", which shows that he wasn't paying as much attention, and appears to perhaps just be winging it.

Now he could be town getting muddled up, but he could be scum making a bad job of covering for earlier points.

So if Ray does flip town tomorrow, I would look at apathy for barely posting, redbox for various issues as have been brought up, fuzzy for the same issues I agreed with Ray about last night, and perhaps jmurph.

I would also be surprised if I wasn't looked into tomorrow as well, considering I've been the one most strongly for the Ray lynch out of everyone.

Of course, the NK might tell us something, depending on the level of skill in the mafia players that is. But right now my prime suspects are:

Ray (duh!)
redbox
fuzzy

I would say jammer, but that would be based off kelyn's previous appearance of seemingly noob questions, but yet has been playing it (albiet in real life) previously, but now we have a new player it's worth seeing where things go for now.

[jmurph3]

@jmurph, redbox, and apathy: do you have any other suspicions other than ray?

I do have a few other suspicions, some that are based strictly on the fact that some aren't posting as much (I understand it was the weekend, and I'm hoping that now that the week is back in session, some might be back around to dispel some of my suspicions).

I would really like to hear fuzzylightning's take on all of this, since I think he has been gone since Friday, which was right when the throwdown between Ray and Prana really started.

I also really want to hear more from Apathy. Though, as I've obviously mentioned, I agree with a lot of the arguments he made in his really long post, I want to hear more. because in my book, contributing only once to the argument and then backing away from it once it becomes heated seems a bit suspicious.

I'm getting the same suspicious vibe as some of the others toward redbox and what he did or did not mean by his post. As the same time, I agree with you, Skill, that the whole argument over who redbox meant in his comment regarding myself did seem to get blown up quite a bit.

I'm getting a town read on PE thus far, based on his most recent posts.

I know I'm leaving some people out, and that's because I actually have to leave for the moment. So I guess I'll leave this post as a

to be continued...

[fuzzylightning]

Sorry, my girlfriend was here this weekend, so I didn't have much computer time, I will read up on the developments of the weekend and get back to everyone as soon as I can

[jammer]

I have a problem with calling a vast majority of the players "neutral" without really giving any analysis of the individuals.

I feel the blanket statement gives a stance while keeping the stance as

very

easy to change.

The blanket statement =/= a stance.

And surely, I can swing easily in favor for town or scum for those players. They're neutral for a reason.

My joking extends however long I want it to! *points finger at the cat threateningly* Now put 'em up!1!

I'm not sure how you believe I "extended the random voting stage" as contrasted with "kept joking past the RVS." I don't feel that continuing to joke indicates stretching the RVS past where it would go naturally. Could you give some examples of this?

For that bit,

Aha, I have been waiting for this!

vote: RayFrost

You asked me a question, if I was town or not, I suppose in a friendly gesture. However, it seemed like the true purpose of your question was to find out if I had a power role or not.

You knew I was cop last game, so I was likely to compare my present role to my previous role. You even went as far as to cover your role fishing with playful joke stuff, so people wouldn't notice.
And you even put that I shouldn't say "I am not cop", to make your intentions less conspicious.

Hahahah.

Problem with your logic, it requires I could read your mind to know you would make that comparison and reaction!

Obviously, you are scum that is stretching to come up with a good reason to vote me off now that I'm town!

You fear my mighty scumhunting!

unvote, vote: skill006

You already said you aren't cop, and I was saying that was a bad idea, so I was, in fact, teaching you from your own mistake!

Here you react with a OMGUS-vote at once. You respond in a jokish matter, the omugus vote apears rather random because the reasoning itself is brought as a joke.

Sweet, three votes already.

New record.

Anyway, your case is bad in that I'm blatantly OMGUSing, and I know I'm doing it.

But I wanted your case to happen, y'see. ^.^

This summarizes that it took some time before you played more serious.

~~~

It's time the 'inactives' speak a bit.

If any of them didn't get (much) questions. Here are a few to anwser if you don't know what to post.
Who do you suspect,
opinion on the Ray/Prana fight,
pick a question someone else got.

[jammer]

Oh, wait. I actually got some reads.

I got some reads on a gut-level, barely any reasoning. But I'll try to explain a bit. It may not help the rest ogf you in finding scum, but atleast get a peak on how I think.

Town on Skill, the discussion good/bad for town makes me put her in the town site.

I got a bit of scum on PE, the "don't lynch guys, we must discuss" seems something to fake sounding townish.

I'm indifferent on redbox. But, I would like it if posts in the near future.

[Skill006]

Hello! I wasn't as busy as I suspected today, and I might have a snow day tomorrow (chances are slim, but I'm hoping XD), so my activity level will -hopefully- increase.

Umm, to reply to prana's post:

Actually Skill, that debate over that issue was part of it, sure, but not all of it.

Yeah I know, but I didn't have a heck of a lot of time last night, I was typing that while I was supposed to be doing English/Math hw, forgive the laziness to give feedback on the whole of it. If you want though, I'll give a better shot, I'm just not sure if it's totally worth it (seeing as how I only skimmed throught the bulk of the argument).

I also would point out that the debate raged because Ray took it as meaning him, when there was no indication of that whatsoever.

I could actually see where Ray was coming from when he thought redbox was implying he was scum buddies w/ jmurph. But, tbh it was odd when ray kept trying to argue that he was right as if ray himself wrote the post. Of course there are going to be misunderstandings, but since he argued it out so much, it seems like he was trying to convince somebody that redbox was jumping to conclusions.

But, redbox should've just explained what he meant instead of vote for it, IMO. That was one of his only reasons to vote. If it was a misunderstanding about

his

post, he should explain what he meant, not vote as "misrepresentation".

I got a bit of scum on PE, the "don't lynch guys, we must discuss" seems something to fake sounding townish.

I disagree, but I also don't want to defend for him (want the excuse to answer for himself).

Urg, this is going out of order, but:

I would say jammer, but that would be based off kelyn's previous appearance of seemingly noob questions, but yet has been playing it (albiet in real life) previously, but now we have a new player it's worth seeing where things go for now.

I don't think that kelyn's "appearance of seeming noob" was any kind of defense for himself. He wanted to let everyone know what his type of experience was for the forum game, and that was none. We can't really be the judge of his experience, as playing a game outside of this one could make you worse at this game, who knows (well, I don't). It's not much of a scumtell, IMO.

I'll get another post in shortly.

[Skill006]

Sorry, I missed this bit:

Next she lowers our expectations of her when she answers kelyn's question of whether or not she considers herself a good scumhunter. This is fine, but I have no idea why she re-affirms this when RayFrost comments on it.

Is this a scumtell? I'm just wondering, because I don't want my lack of confidence to confirm any suspicions. The explanation for this is, well, lack of confidence as a player in general, joking around a bit (as I really did bad on my first/most recent game), and letting everyone know that they shouldn't expect much from me.

I will try not to use this as a defense for anything. Just saying. If I already did, well, it's my first nature to make up excuses

[PranaDevil]

I figure this is the first time you have been found out so early and are having a hard time dealing with the thought that a bunch of noobs outted you.

Something concerns me about this, and I've been dwelling on it all day just to think it through properly, and I'd like to hear other people's thoughts on it as well.

Initially on reading it I smiled and thought "yeah, I agree", but that was because the discussion was rather heated between me and Ray, the next day I pretty much forgot about that one line, but I began to think about it more as time went on.

This comment was blatantly written to goad Ray in more, as though trying to make him slip up further due to him getting emotional about things.

In fact I'd go so far as to say it's possible that scum knew Ray had put his foot in his mouth by accident, and saw town attacking town, and just tried piling on the pressure by adding not just a vote, but by throwing a baiting line in there to get him riled up, knowing full well that I wouldn't notice it so much, and hoping others missed it too.

Alas since calming down and looking over it, things like that start standing out, and things like that seem exceptionally scummy. Especially as it gives no actual town benefit except to throw something rather personally attacking in Ray's direction needlessly.

Plus there's no difference, to me, in how a noob plays and how an experienced player plays. Someone could play this game for years and still be a useless prat who could find scum if all scum were armed with uzis pointed at them. By the same token, you could have a new player who despite never playing the game before, can read people well, and can spot flaws in argument logic easily to such an extent they've already worked out the scum players by the end of day one. Sure they're two extremes, but I highly doubt Ray would throw a fit purely on the basis of "I've been found out early by noob players".

In fact, if Ray was scum in a noob game, I think he would be silently applauding noobs (if not publicly showing it, for obvious reasons) that they were able to spot scum so quickly. Not throwing a fit because they had done.

So I do have to wonder why redbox posted that if it wasn't to deliberately try and bait Ray into dugging a bigger hole for himself.

Also, Skill, you say you skimmed over it and haven't properly looked into the issue, I have to ask why? The issue between me and Ray was rather a big one as far as D1 games are concerned, and something that all players should be looking at to get a read on both me and Ray, skimming over it, and not properly reading both players posts makes it seem like you feel you don't need to for whatever reason, and surely the only people who don't need a read off everyone would be scum?

[jmurph3]

I figure this is the first time you have been found out so early and are having a hard time dealing with the thought that a bunch of noobs outted you.

Something concerns me about this, and I've been dwelling on it all day just to think it through properly, and I'd like to hear other people's thoughts on it as well.

...

So I do have to wonder why redbox posted that if it wasn't to deliberately try and bait Ray into dugging a bigger hole for himself.

Good catch, Prana. I actually didn't even notice this in redbox's original post, and had to go back and find it.

To me, this only adds to the suspicion mounting on redbox, and while it's not enough yet for me to switch off of Ray, it is enough for me to think that he's prime suspect if Ray flips town.

[RayFrost]

So, basically, you are setting up lynches.

consider the following sequence...

ray flips town (I will)

go after redbox

redbox flips town

scum-jmurph would loooooveeee this.

setting up lynches like this is scummy.