Mafia 39: Back to Gambits - Game over!

[Thoth]

Nice Iron Maiden reference Jeep

Even if StD does not show up as scum we're still not sure whether he's actually the Sorceror as he could still be Judas/Saulus/Vampire.

[Fuldu]

Well, we'll go to no lynch if he's the Judas or Saulus, so I'm less worried about that. Besides,:

The true identities of persons assassinated at night are not revealed, although the identities of the victims of the day lynchings are.

...so we'll be informed who STD is. We just don't get information on night deaths. Also, I think you meant Angel instead of Sorceror. dybeck claimed the latter, STD claimed the former.

I think having the Bookie put their bet on a BJ lynching and then following through with it if STD turns out to be the Angel makes sense. But what should he do if STD isn't the Angel? A dybeck night-kill?

[BabyJesus]

But what should he do if STD isn't the Angel? A dybeck night-kill?

I think thats a good plan....

[BabyJesus]

Oh, and I'm not the angel, obviously, if I were it would be stoopid to counter claim, since an outed angel is toast eventually with 2 killing groups. Still a good plan to confirm STD by lynching him, then if he is the angel we can bring him back...

[Thoth]

But what should he do if STD isn't the Angel? A dybeck night-kill?

I think thats a good plan....

Seems an ok idea. Also brought up the following for me:

We've not yet discussed the Bookie/Vig interaction that we have in this game.
I think it would be a good idea anyhow to make a town decision on who the vig should kill at night with the bookie picking that character.

3 relevant situations
1. Vig kills, but bookie is dead/dies that night. Here we have in essence a two-lynch day which is not so bad assuming the person that's picked has a higher chance of being scum.
2. Vig kills townie. Bookie resurrects him next night.
3. Vig kills scum. Bookie gets to resurrect a townie next night.

Of course nr 3 is is the desired result.

[SpeedyKQ]

It probably goes without saying that the governor should investigate dybeck tonight to check his claim.

[Fuldu]

Oh, and I'm not the angel, obviously, if I were it would be stoopid to counter claim, since an outed angel is toast eventually with 2 killing groups.

I don't dispute that an outed Angel is bad, but keep in mind that only the Mafia would have any incentive to target the Angel over any other pro-town player. As far as the Werewolves are concerned, the Angel is just another townie. The same (or vice-versa) is true of many of the roles in this game.

But if you're not counterclaiming Angel, then what was with the big old disputation? Not that many other explanations exist given this role set. You could be the Seer and have investigated STD and know that he's a Werewolf, but then you'd have been voting him harder, sooner, instead of voting for (oy) six different people over the course of the day, half of them three or more times. You could be the Governor, have investigated STD and know that he's a protective role, but then you wouldn't be voting him (and it isn't clear why he'd be lying). You could be in a group (scum or mason) with him, but you wouldn't be voting him and he wouldn't be lying (if mason) or wouldn't be disputing the claim so fervently but maybe still voting him (if scum). None of those really make any sense and I can't come up with any other explanations beyond translating your outburst as "I don't believe you." If that's what you meant by it, you should say so, because otherwise I'm going to have a hard time trusting you tomorrow whether STD turns out to be scum or not.

[SpeedyKQ]

Thoth, interesting idea, but we don't find out the alignment of night kills (including vig kills) so the bookie doesn't know whether to resurrect the person or not. They could, of course resurrect a townie who we know was wrongfully lynched. I think we should start considering coordinating bookie and vig actions later, once we have somebody we know we want to resurrect. It would probably be worth it if we turn out to be wrong about STD.

[Thoth]

Thoth, interesting idea, but we don't find out the alignment of night kills (including vig kills) so the bookie doesn't know whether to resurrect the person or not. They could, of course resurrect a townie who we know was wrongfully lynched.

We do get it when someone was Mafia or Werewolf. Only in the J/S/V case we would be resurrecting possible scum, where the vampire could otherwise resurrect himself and Judas is protown unless we lynch him.

The deaths of Mafia and Werewolves are always revealed, even when killed at night. This does not include the Judas, Saulus and Vampire (before becoming a Werewolf).

[HezLucky]

The one problem with the vigilante and bookie directing kills is that it forces both of them to claim... could be bad.

With that being said, let's hop to it and get STD lynched so we can confirm his innocence ... assuming, of course, that he is innocent.

[BabyJesus]

Oh, and I'm not the angel, obviously, if I were it would be stoopid to counter claim, since an outed angel is toast eventually with 2 killing groups.

I don't dispute that an outed Angel is bad, but keep in mind that only the Mafia would have any incentive to target the Angel over any other pro-town player. As far as the Werewolves are concerned, the Angel is just another townie. The same (or vice-versa) is true of many of the roles in this game.

But if you're not counterclaiming Angel, then what was with the big old disputation? Not that many other explanations exist given this role set. You could be the Seer and have investigated STD and know that he's a Werewolf, but then you'd have been voting him harder, sooner, instead of voting for (oy) six different people over the course of the day, half of them three or more times. You could be the Governor, have investigated STD and know that he's a protective role, but then you wouldn't be voting him (and it isn't clear why he'd be lying). You could be in a group (scum or mason) with him, but you wouldn't be voting him and he wouldn't be lying (if mason) or wouldn't be disputing the claim so fervently but maybe still voting him (if scum). None of those really make any sense and I can't come up with any other explanations beyond translating your outburst as "I don't believe you." If that's what you meant by it, you should say so, because otherwise I'm going to have a hard time trusting you tomorrow whether STD turns out to be scum or not.

yes

[HezLucky]

Oh, and I think BabyJesus would still be a good target for the bookie lynch tomorrow. Unless you guys have better suggestions?

This isn't important though. Unless the bookie says otherwise or a cop gets a result then I think that we should assume that BJ was the bookie's choice.

For now, let's lynch STD. Better than him dying at night to the opposing scum group ... this way we can confirm his innocence.

[BabyJesus]

Oh, and I think BabyJesus would still be a good target for the bookie lynch tomorrow. Unless you guys have better suggestions?

This isn't important though. Unless the bookie says otherwise or a cop gets a result then I think that we should assume that BJ was the bookie's choice.

For now, let's lynch STD. Better than him dying at night to the opposing scum group ... this way we can confirm his innocence.

I wonder if this guy is scum....

[SpeedyKQ]

We do get [alignment info] when someone was Mafia or Werewolf.

My mistake. So maybe we should start choosing vig kills right away? I think it makes sense from a strategic perspective, but the logistics of coordinating this are scary.

The one problem with the vigilante and bookie directing kills is that it forces both of them to claim... could be bad.

No it doesn't. As long as the town comes to a collective decision on who to target, the vig and bookie can carry out the plan without claiming.

[BabyJesus]

unvote, vote hezlucky

[SpeedyKQ]

Oh, and I think BabyJesus would still be a good target for the bookie lynch tomorrow. Unless you guys have better suggestions?

This isn't important though. Unless the bookie says otherwise or a cop gets a result then I think that we should assume that BJ was the bookie's choice.

Why should we assume this?

[BabyJesus]

In all seriousness...as much as I would like to see STD be lynched, I don't really think lynching someone claiming a power role is a good idea at this stage...

[HezLucky]

Nah, I'm not scum.

I don't think you understand me:

If STD is not killed at night, we have no way of knowing whether it was doctor protection or whether he's lying and is mafia.

If we lynch him, we confirm that he's good and bookie resurrects him later.

If we don't lynch him, for all we know the Angel could be dead ... hence, that gives him a free ride for the rest of the game.

[vikingfan]

I doubt that, hez- he won't get a free ride because it makes sense for the mafia/ werewolves to go after him. That's why it makes sense to let dybeck live for now-he's probably a target tonight, even if he is a member of one scum group. For the scum, the more power roles/opposing scum they can kill, the better, so we need to use this to our advantage for things like testing claims-i.e. dybeck.

[jeep]

*sigh* We're not going to get this day over by lunch, are we? Bleh.

-JEEP

[HezLucky]

viking - I'm talking about STD.

If he's not killed then we don't know WHY. Therefore, we can't really test his claim at night. We must do it at day.

[vikingfan]

I agree with you, lucky. That's why I'm leaving my vote on STD. Since daykills are our only CONFIRMED source of info about roles (other than mafia/wolves dying at night), it makes sense to get the most info possible therefore out of them. Right now, STD makes the most sense for that.

Where are our nonvoters? Either put the vote on STD or put it on someone who you do find suspicious (and explain why of course).

[BabyJesus]

viking - I'm talking about STD.

If he's not killed then we don't know WHY. Therefore, we can't really test his claim at night. We must do it at day.

Unless the bookie is dead....

[rolandofthewhite]

Oh, and I'm not the angel, obviously, if I were it would be stoopid to counter claim, since an outed angel is toast eventually with 2 killing groups. Still a good plan to confirm STD by lynching him, then if he is the angel we can bring him back...

See, I'm not an idiot after all. Why on earth would you say "I DISPUTE THIS" if you aren't the Angel? You have nothing to dispute, and you made everyone think you were counter-claiming, more than likely on purpose.

Unvote; Vote: BabyJesus

.

[Puzzle]

Unvote STD, vote Baby Jesus + Big FAT FOS Hezlucky

. I don't feel like lynching a non-counterclaimed power role right off the bat.
BJ, your "I dispute this" was really indicating a counter-claim to me and I'm surprised that it took that long for you to clarifyit wasn't one. I also don't get why you are so positive that the Angel wouldn't counter-claim STD. Confirming 1 scum and 1 protectable + resurrectable townie (for what we know right now) sounds like a good deal to me.

Question to the mod :

if the Angel (or Seer) is killed at night and resurrected later, does he get results from the night in which he died ? and what about the night he came back ?